Engine Management Light and Warranty

[arossco]

The engine management light on my 2017 Verso 1.6 D4D came on last night, so I haven't driven it since. It has only 39K on the clock and a full Toyota service history.

Last week it seemed to briefly lose power at the end of a journey, but seemed fine afterwards - no warning lights at that point.

My car is covered by Toyota Relax, so I phoned my dealer this morning and they can't book it in until October 29th ! I'm taking it to a local garage to get a diagnostic done tomorrow.

The problem is : what if it is needing a repair and I have to get it done my the local garage - will this invalidate my warranty ? 

I can't possibly wait two months without driving the car ! 

Any advice gratefully received !

 

[Eddiefh]

29th october , wow there busy 

[Eddiefh]

Is there not another Toyota dealer in your area 

[arossco]

There are three in different towns, but all about 30 miles away. I'll try them tomorrow after I find out the results of the diagnostic. 

 

[arossco]

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There were two main codes after the diagnostic test :

P00BD - Mass or volume air flow A circuit range/performance - air flow too high

P0471 - Exhaust Pressure Sensor A circuit range/performance

I've Googled these, and neither seems to indicate that I should stop driving the car, just get it checked sooner rather than later.

I tried turning off and on the ignition key 3 times, and this has made the EML go off. I'm waiting to see if it comes back again.

https://carfromjapan.com/article/car-maintenance/reset-check-engine-light-follow-4-easy-ways/#

I managed to book a diagnostic appointment with Toyota in Stirling next Wednesday 6th September, ( I am in Glasgow ) as Toyota need to do their own check before ordering parts for a subsequent repair. If the light does not come back on before then I may cancel this. It's due a service in January which I've also booked with my local dealer, given their waiting list !

 

[carpymick]

any update on this fault. Mine is exactly the same syptoms.

[arossco]

I'll give you the outcome first as I have a lot to say about the matter !

It turned out to be a partially blocked turbo hose, and a small leak in the air intake. I had it serviced by Toyota Helensburgh, who diagnosed these, and unblocked the hose and fixed the leak. I can highly recommend them. The car is running really well now, and picks up far better from about 1200 rpm. In fact, it has more power than at any time since I bought it in July 2022 with only 29K on the clock. It now has 41K.

The service was in late December last year, so it was nearly 4 months after the first time the engine management light came on - I tried a number of things to fix it, but without success - each time I imagined there was an improvement only for the problem to recur.

In early December I had a particularly frightening  incident. It was in heavy rain, and I was on the M9 near Stirling, in the outer lane passing some lorries going uphill at about 65 mph. The car suddenly lost power, and I had to drop back and get into the inside lane. I could only carry on in 3rd and 4th gear. So glad there was nothing close behind at the time ! 

In case it is helpful, here are the things I tried which led up to the successful repair :

1. At my appointment in Stirling, they diagnosed a blocked inlet manifold, which would need to be replaced at a cost of £1040 ! When I asked if this would be done under the Toyota Relax warranty, they said it was not covered, under the T&Cs, which they had highlighted. They said that I may want to consider buying a new car ! On subsequent reading, the section actually refers to the exhaust manifold, not the inlet manifold. I wasn't prepared to pay that, so I tried some other avenues.

2. After a lot of Googling and some very good advice on the Car Mechanics forum, I confirmed that the P00BD is indeed related to blockages in the inlet side of the engine. Because of the exhaust gases and the crankcase fumes being recirculated to the inlet side, an horrible sticky oily mess gets coated on everything. 

3.. I took the car for an Engine Carbon Clean, where nitrogen is injected into the air intake for about half an hour, the idea being that is causes the engine to run hotter and help burn off the carbon. This seemed to work for a few days, but the EML came back on.

4. I bought an OBD2 scanner, so that I could check so see if I was still getting the same codes, and not any new ones. Codes were the same.

5. I took the car to a tune-up specialist who diagnosed a blocked DPF, and did a cleaning process on that. I then had to do an hour's motorway drive at over 2000 revs to finish the DPF cleaning process. Very hard to keep that up in modern traffic conditions ! Same result - light back on after a few days.

6. I bought a spray can of MAP Pressure Sensor cleaner, and gave that a good clean. Same result.

7. I put in a bottle of STP fuel treatment, and I certainly thought there was a slight improvement until the M9 incident above.

I was getting fed up with that damn light coming on all the time, and even thought of getting rid of the car, even though I really like it.

Anyway, all is well now. I can only imagine, as the car was so low mileage, the previous owner maybe put in cheaper diesel fuel and didn't do long journeys, which helps clog everything up. I have always used BP Ultimate, which they say has cleaning properties. Shell V-Power is also equally good. I also will make sure I do the "at least 20 minutes at 2000rpm" drive every so often to help clear out the DPF. 

I really think it is poor that these engines clog up with normal driving, and it is not a service item to clean the intake/DPF. It's almost back to the days of decoking petrol engines every 30K ! My previous car was a 2006 Corolla Verso 2.2 D4D which never had any blockages in the 12 years I had it. Far less bells and whistles, but a very powerful engine.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Different diesel engines. The Corolla would have been a Toyota unit, the Verso the BMW N47 ......

[Tomv]

It may sound strange but I would check your thermostat. If you have obd, check if the coolant temperature can reach the optimal temperature. 

[arossco]

2 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Different diesel engines. The Corolla would have been a Toyota unit, the Verso the BMW N47 ......

Yes - I bought the new car with the BMW N47 (1WW) engine because it is Euro 6 compliant. We got ULEZ zones in central Glasgow in summer 2023. 

[arossco]

1 hour ago, Tomv said:

It may sound strange but I would check your thermostat. If you have obd, check if the coolant temperature can reach the optimal temperature. 

My car runs at 85C when fully warmed up, even in current temperatures. Useful having the OBD2 scanner to check this !

 

[Cyker]

The older D4Ds didn't have DPFs so where waaaay more reliable.

The DPF is almost single-handedly responsible for reversing diesel engines from being the most reliable engine to the least.

It's why, despite being a diesel convert, I jumped off the bandwagon around Euro5/6, as they need a lot heavier use to keep them healthy; Pottering around town 1-2 miles will kill them in short order.

They're still great if you haul stuff around or do long distances - The engines can get stuck in and do some serious work, which gets them good and hot, but if they're being underused they develop problems quickly.

Even with my pre-DPF Mk1 Yaris D4D, I'd regularly take it on a weekend hoon on some hilly country roads, even throw in a tank of V-Power diesel now and then, to keep it healthy. Also it's fun  

[Rhymes with Paris]

Aye Cyker, ain't that the truth.

Even the PSA diesels were efficient, and the ones I had, reliable,a couple of Pugs/Citroen.

The 1.9 intercooler version in a 405 was pretty good, economical and powerful.

A 1998 sprinter van I had with the 5 cylinder 3 litre engine was a gem engine wise, high speed cruising along, huge distances in comfort no problem,not so much on the bodywork, needing regular rust sorting.

I think that was during a time Merc started being run by accountants rather than engineers.

Then things got improved 🥴.

[carpymick]

Great answer, thats pretty much identical to the symptoms showing on my Verso. Are you able to point me in the direction of which turbo hose was blocked? The sudden loss of power is most disconcerting. Ive cleared codes and took the car for an Italian Tune Up and lost power after slowing for some lights. Mil back on and only P0471 on now. Most odd.

[arossco]

Annoyingly, the invoice just said "cleaned blocked turbo hose". I'll call them tomorrow and ask for more details.

During the months I was having the problems I cleared the codes after each "fix" and they would come back again.

There were occasions when P0471 would come up on its own, but always followed by P00BD after a while. Other times it was the other way round.  

 

[carpymick]

That would be great to find out. I am getting the P0471 code. I can locate the DPF differential pressure sensor but not sure where the exhaust pressure sensor is. I suspect that may be the blocked pipe.

My scan tool says I have about 45psi differential pressure which seems a bit unlikely when looking at live data for the DPF differential sensor. When I disconnect the 2 hoses there is just a very gentle waft of exhaust gases and with engine off I can blow down both hoses quite easily so no blockage there.

[arossco]

Rereading my invoice, it says they cleared the turbo pressure pipe.

I spoke to a very helpful engineer at Helensburgh Toyota today to clarify which pipe this is.

He said it's a small metal pipe which runs from the exhaust manifold to the exhaust pressure sensor on the inlet manifold, and blockage is a frequent problem.

Looks like you are on the right track, carpymick !

[carpymick]

Well, I investigated this pipe today and identified from the top that the end terminates just by the EGR valve and air intake hoses. If you take off the air filter upper housing and the air mass hose assembly you can just about see the exhaust pressure sensor and the pipe upper mounting screw.

A deep socket and the sensor was easy enough to remove. From there I used a length of fuel hose I had sitting about and blowing into the pipe confirmed it was blocked. Next step I tried poking some wire into pipe but couldn't make much progress so decided to remove complete pipe. This involved jacking up car and putting on stands, then removing the turbo heatshields from under the car. That was a right mission and I have cut my knuckles and wrists on the heat shield edges. Nothing too serious though, everyday occurrence for working on cars. The carbon fouling also made it difficult to remove the banjo bolt at the lower end. It came undone a turn or two and then locked up. As I didn't want to break anything  I left it to soak in wd40 for an hour and then worked it in and out till it freed up. Thread was a little damaged but usable. I also dropped a copper washer but luckily had a spare in the garage.

Once on  the bench I tried brake cleaner which was not very effective and then good old wd40 down each end. Then using some domestic wiring 8mm I think, I stripped the wire apart to get the solid earth wire out and poked about each end working it back and forth. Sure enough wd40 started to flow through. I then managed with a few more attempts to get one of the domestic wires still with insulation on it through one end and out the other and used plenty of wd40 and a see saw motion to work it clean. That worked a treat and I have now installed pipe with just the heat shields left to fit tomorrow.

The pipe design does seem poor as hot exhaust gases will go in and cool very rapidly near the sensor end and form soot deposits. There's no way the deposits can burn off in there. I shall remove sensor and poke wire down there on its service to keep it clear.

If anyone else has to tackle this job take the opportunity to mark which way round the heat shield goes! I didn't and its a right old faff.

So, big thanks to Arossco  for posting about this problem and also for kindly following up with his repair garage to confirm pipe location. (The only post I could find online) I have attached images showing location of pipe and sensor and will post back to confirm fix.

[carpymick]

Another hours work this morning to refit turbo heat shields. Im pleased to report that after a road test no further fault codes appeared and the car drives well. The codes that were present is as follows

P00BD Mass Air Flow A Circuit Range Performance flow too high

P0471 Exhaust Pressure Sensor A Circuit Range Performance

Im lucky I didnt end up wasting money on DPF cleans and manifolds. Total cost was about 6 hours work and plenty of cuts on my hands from those undershields.

[arossco]

That is great news ! Exactly the same problem, with the same solution. Delighted your car is performing well again.

Mine was a revelation after the work was done, clearly the whole time I had my car since I bought it there must have been at least a partial blockage, without triggering the EML until last August. It is so much more enjoyable to drive.

Many thanks for your very detailed description and photos of how you went about the work - excellent job ! 

[TommyWooWoo]

@Carpymick, @Arossco.

Have any of the codes returned in the last months?

I'm getting both of those codes on my wife's 2016 Verso 1.6d but no loss of power (yet). Its just started a few days ago so was going to strip out this pipe when I gather the energy... sounds like a bit of a faff to get to off jack stands!

[carpymick]

No, the codes have not returned but I am getting a code P1443 Particular fliter Lamp overload inhibit regeneration. My thoughts are now that the blocked pipe has led to a build up of carbon.

That aside car is driving well. I believe with the benefit of hindsight that the pipe can be cleared without removal. Take out the exhaust pressure sensor located rear right corner of engine as you are looking in the engine bay. its well hidden and you may need to remove airbox bits. With that removed rig up some hose and see if you can blow down pipe. If not get hold of some bowden cable in 1.5 mm ,you can buy it on eBay in a 1m length.

Spray some wd40 down hole to soften deposits and keep working the cable through. It can even be fitted to a Battery drill to twiddle it a bit. It has to go round 2 bends and it may take a while but it can definately be done.

Hope thats of some help for you.

[TommyWooWoo]

Thank you for the quick reply.

I've stripped and cleaned the sensor which was covered in soot, also pushed a thin bottle cleaner down but only managed to get in 125mm so not sure if I've cleaned it or just pushed all the crap further in! Anyhow the codes returned after doing this so just in 2 minds whether to take the pipe off completely or try again from the top with Bowden cable as you suggest. I've got a decent OBD scanner coming so this may help diagnose if the sensor is actually reading or not. New sensor is around £30. 

[arossco]

I have not had any codes since the pipe was cleared, and the car is still running well.

However about two weeks ago a warning message appeared on the amber 'multi information display' - "Diesel Particular Filter Blocked".

Strangely the EML light didn't come on, and no codes came up on my OBD scanner. Luckily I was about to embark on a 30 mile motorway journey, so I drove in 5th gear at 70mph, and the light went off after about 20 miles. The was no deterioration in performance, and it hasn't come on since. 

I'm wondering if this was an error in the system, as I had a DPF clean done last November, also the lack of the EML is puzzling.

 

 

 

[carpymick]

9 hours ago, TommyWooWoo said:

Thank you for the quick reply.

I've stripped and cleaned the sensor which was covered in soot, also pushed a thin bottle cleaner down but only managed to get in 125mm so not sure if I've cleaned it or just pushed all the crap further in! Anyhow the codes returned after doing this so just in 2 minds whether to take the pipe off completely or try again from the top with Bowden cable as you suggest. I've got a decent OBD scanner coming so this may help diagnose if the sensor is actually reading or not. New sensor is around £30. 

If you can please avoid removing pipe. Its quite difficult as you need to remove all the undertray for access and a lot of the heat shields beneath the car are very sharp. Then you need to remove turbo heatshield which is tricky to say the least. Once removed you can see the banjo bolt securing the end of the pipe and on mine when i removed it the carbon build up caused the threads to strip on the banjo bolt. Not good. The bowden cable is the best way and the wd40 will soften the caron deposits. You should be able to feel the cable go round the 2 bends and then stop when it reaches the banjo connector.