Cvt gearbox

[Edgie70]

Hi all , as all the hybrids are auto gearbox my question is , can they be driven similar to a manual ? I mean starting in a certain gear then manually changing up , thanks 

[flash22]

No they can't as they are Constantly Variable, also the eCVT is nothing like a conventional CVT as it's fully gear driven (No push belt or torque convertor) Hybrids have their own driving style what may take a bit of getting used too

Apart from B mode that gives you engine braking, for descending a steep incline

[TonyHSD]

Hi, 

if you own a 2.0 Corolla you can actually change fake ( simulated) gears 6 or so but these does not exist in reality as the transmission is exactly as explained above so no actually gears or any benefit of changing manually these pre set ratios. 
Perhaps you can use the shifter down when going’s downhill as engine braking to maintain speed as these cars has no B option like 1.8 Corolla or 1.5 Yaris for example. 

[Cyker]

The toyota hybrid system is a very unusual and unique system - I often argue it shouldn't be called a gearbox as it doesn't have anything providing different gear ratios like all other gearboxs, but sortof fakes it using one of the electric motors; In practise it drives more like an EV.

As Tony says, some of them can 'fake' gear ratios, but there is no real point as it'll be inferior to just letting it do what it wants.

The new ones especially are more responsive than any other kind of transmission, and there is no need to e.g. pre-downshift, like you might want to in other cars to prepare for e.g. an overtake, because it does it instantly anyway.

Conversely, you don't need to force a higher gear because when you're cruising the engine will always drop to its most efficient RPM, or even just shut the engine off completely.

I am an (ex-)manual driver, and have never liked automatic transmissions as they often don't select the right gear the way I would in a manual, and they never do it in the time I'd want it to, but because of the way the HSD works it always does the right thing in the right time and I've never felt the need for a manual mode like I have in conventional automatics. You can just drive it like an EV and it sorts everything out, no lagging when it hits a hill or holding high revs in too-low a gear (Unless you tell it to by giving it the beans!  ).

 

 

[Edgie70]

Thank you for all your replies , my aim was to get a Corolla 1.2t manual but I wanted the design model due to better spec ( wheels etc ) but they're quite rare so I see more 1.8 hybrid Corollas with the design spec so I've been toying whether I'd " like " the cvt transmission compared to a manual .

[Cyker]

TBH the best thing to do is to take a test drive, but if you drive like a normal human I think you'll not have any problems with it.

It gets slated in the automotive press because car journalists can't drive properly and/or seem to have club-feet - They *always* complain about how it revs high and drones, and I always want to shout back "Of course it does you muppet, it's because you've welded your foot to the floor!" 

I think they're too used to planting the throttle in conventional cars, where you have to wait for the revs to build in higher gears, so you tend to get on the throttle a bit ahead of time.

In the hybrids, your foot directly controls how much power is being demanded, and it will try to meet that demand ASAP, no waiting like with normal gearboxes, so if you plant the accelerator pedal it'll immediately give all the revs, which is like being in 1st gear or having a slipping clutch if you aren't used to that! In the newer ones it's not such a weird feeling, as the new engines will switch to Otto-cycle mode and deliver a big punch of torque, so you feel the acceleration to go with the revs, which the older ones didn't do so obviously.

But normal people do not drive like this, and know there are pedal positions in between MAX and zero, and if you drive like that the engine will be both super responsive but also quiet and well mannered.

The instant response also makes them really fun to launch from a standstill at traffic lights.    

 

[Red_Corolla]

@Cyker it is very much a real gearbox - an epicyclic gearbox (aka planetary gearbox). This is an old technology which was commonly employed in tanks due to it's robustness and flexibility, but the number of ratios achievable was always finite because they were set by locking each of the seperate elements in varioius combinations, using clutches.

What Toyota, rather cleverly, did is take this existing technology and adapt it into a CVT by  using inverter-controlled electric motors to vary the relative shaft speeds rather than simply having them locked/unlocked in a binary fashion, hence the term 'eCVT'.

As regards other automatics, I've had good experiences and bad. My first one was a BMW with an 8-speed ZF transmission and that worked really well - I was never even tempted to use the flappy paddles because it somehow always selected the appropriate gear in good time. After that, I went for a VAG car and test drove the DSG gearbox, but was very disappointed by it's inability to adapt, certainly not a patch on the more traditional ZF auto, prompting me to order a manual instead. That's how I ended up with a Corolla - after a couple of years, I missed having a decent auto, tried the hybrid system and loved it!

[Edgie70]

@Cyker when you say like having a slipping clutch ? So for example if it was required to accelerate hard from a junction does it feel like clutch slip , engine revs but going no where ? 

[Cyker]

26 minutes ago, Red_Corolla said:

@Cyker it is very much a real gearbox - an epicyclic gearbox (aka planetary gearbox). This is an old technology which was commonly employed in tanks due to it's robustness and flexibility, but the number of ratios achievable was always finite because they were set by locking each of the seperate elements in varioius combinations, using clutches.

What Toyota, rather cleverly, did is take this existing technology and adapt it into a CVT by  using inverter-controlled electric motors to vary the relative shaft speeds rather than simply having them locked/unlocked in a binary fashion, hence the term 'eCVT'.

As regards other automatics, I've had good experiences and bad. My first one was a BMW with an 8-speed ZF transmission and that worked really well - I was never even tempted to use the flappy paddles because it somehow always selected the appropriate gear in good time. After that, I went for a VAG car and test drove the DSG gearbox, but was very disappointed by it's inability to adapt, certainly not a patch on the more traditional ZF auto, prompting me to order a manual instead. That's how I ended up with a Corolla - after a couple of years, I missed having a decent auto, tried the hybrid system and loved it!

This exactly is the misconception I'm trying to get people to understand - While there is a planetary gearset in there, it doesn't act as a gearbox like you get in the good ol' slushboxs - It actually acts more like a differential, allowing the inputs and outputs of MG1, MG2 and the ICE to be linked together.

Unlike a slushbox, at no point is any part of it locked by clutches to create gear ratios - there are no clutches anywhere in there and it plays no part in 'creating' gear ratios from the ICE to the wheels, aside from it connecting MG1, MG2 and the ICE together.

Instead, what happens is, as you kinda mention, MG1 directly controls how much power and torque go from the ICE to the wheels/MG2 by spinning at different speeds or even backwards, either by supplying power or by acting as a generator.

It's a really clever system that nobody else has matched, and AFAIK is the only series-parallel hybrid on the market, with everyone else either being series (ICE is a generator, wheels powered by motors) or parallel (ICE powers one set of wheels, motors power the other set) - The Toyota system is unique in that it can drive the wheels with the ICE or use it as a generator to power the electric motors/charge the Battery, or sometimes both at the same time, at any speed - No other hybrid system can do this!

 

17 minutes ago, Edgie70 said:

@Cyker when you say like having a slipping clutch ? So for example if it was required to accelerate hard from a junction does it feel like clutch slip , engine revs but going no where ? 

Ehh, got to be a bit careful here in case I accidentally propagate false stereotypes!  So in the earlier ones that was a criticism - You got the rev surge, but not as much immediate motion as you'd expect. I don't think that was very true, as they did move, but maybe not with the immediacy you'd expect for the revs. This is something the automotive press latched on with the original 20+ year old Prius and why everyone in that industry still always talks about CVT rubber band effects with the hybrids.

However, this is very much *not* the case in the new ones, and they will pull hard to go along with the revs, hence why I was saying it's more like being in 1st gear too - You feel the pull!

[Edgie70]

Gotcha , so if I get a 2019 1.8 hybrid Corolla I should be ok and not suffer from the rev surge and not as much motion ? 

[Cyker]

Essentially yes, but still test drive one first!

The hybrids will only rev surge (Albeit *with* motion) if you literally floor the accelerator all the time - If you tend to drive like that all the time it will be very revvy, as will anything with a CVT-esque gearbox, so make sure it suits your driving style, as these things are not cheap! (Also, if you do drive like that, get the 2.0 - It's got a stronger pull  )

For anything less than full-throttle driving the engine will be very un-revvy and very smooth. Both of the 4-cylinder engines the Corolla has are very smooth, noticeably more so than the 3-cylinder in my Yaris!

 

[Edgie70]

Thanks , I don't floor the accelerator in my turbo Punto I currently have , I'm 53 so definitely out of that flooring it everywhere, as long as its not slow and has moderate pull then I'm good with that 

[Roker]

39 minutes ago, Red_Corolla said:

@Cyker it is very much a real gearbox - an epicyclic gearbox (aka planetary gearbox). This is an old technology which was commonly employed in tanks due to it's robustness and flexibility, but the number of ratios achievable was always finite because they were set by locking each of the seperate elements in varioius combinations, using clutches.

What Toyota, rather cleverly, did is take this existing technology and adapt it into a CVT by  using inverter-controlled electric motors to vary the relative shaft speeds rather than simply having them locked/unlocked in a binary fashion, hence the term 'eCVT'.

As regards other automatics, I've had good experiences and bad. My first one was a BMW with an 8-speed ZF transmission and that worked really well - I was never even tempted to use the flappy paddles because it somehow always selected the appropriate gear in good time. After that, I went for a VAG car and test drove the DSG gearbox, but was very disappointed by it's inability to adapt, certainly not a patch on the more traditional ZF auto, prompting me to order a manual instead. That's how I ended up with a Corolla - after a couple of years, I missed having a decent auto, tried the hybrid system and loved it!

I. Would say it is a miniature version of a diesel electric locomotive where the engine drive an electric generator which drives the motors on the wheels,  it is not using ratio of gearing

[Cyker]

22 minutes ago, Edgie70 said:

Thanks , I don't floor the accelerator in my turbo Punto I currently have , I'm 53 so definitely out of that flooring it everywhere, as long as its not slow and has moderate pull then I'm good with that 

Then I think it should be absolutely fine!  

Are you looking at a hatchback or an estate one out of curiosity?

Also, have you considered a Yaris Mk4? Bit closer size to the Punto, and it gets better mpg than the Corolla and has really nice handling. Is quite pricey for what it is tho' admittedly...!

 

[Edgie70]

I'm after a hatchback, I carry a drum kit so a Yaris may be a bit too small , I prefer a hatch because I prefer the look of it , estate would be great but I'm just not an estate car fan 

[RabButler]

20 minutes ago, Edgie70 said:

I'm after a hatchback, I carry a drum kit so a Yaris may be a bit too small , I prefer a hatch because I prefer the look of it , estate would be great but I'm just not an estate car fan 

The boot in the hatch might not be big enough for a full size drum kit (with the seats up).

[Edgie70]

I put seats down in my grande Punto and it all fits in so seats down in a Corolla would be fine 

[Cyker]

If you carry people the Estate has waaaay better rear leg room, but otherwise there isn't much in it.

BTW, I carried my little brother and his entire Tama drum kit (Snare, bass, hats, mounting rails, rail toms, floor tom, cymbals, pedals, stands etc.) in my Mk1 Yaris so it would probably fit!    

That said, the Mk4 Yaris has the worst accessible rear doors of the 3 gens of Yaris I've owned (Seriously, would it have killed them to make them open just a bit wider??), so on 2nd thought the Corolla would probably be less of a PITA to load it into...!

 

[Edgie70]

🤣🤣 mines a Tama kit , it goes in the Punto easily so a Corolla is fine , there's only me going to gigs with it so I'm all good with a hatch , just got to find one now ! 

[TonyHSD]

11 hours ago, Roker said:

I. Would say it is a miniature version of a diesel electric locomotive where the engine drive an electric generator which drives the motors on the wheels,  it is not using ratio of gearing

Not at all.  
This is how Honda and Nissan- Renault  hybrids work. 
In Toyota hybrids the things a completely different and unique. 
Engine here drives the car mainly and also adds electric power to a small traction Battery located under the rear seat via an electric motor generator (MG1) connected to the engine crankshaft via damper clutch.
The Battery feeds a second larger electric motor generator (MG2) connected directly to the driving wheels via differential. 
The car always starts with MG2 and ice ( internal combustion engine) adds more torque  or takes completely over when needed and can propel the car on its own or in combination with MG2. 
When under heavy acceleration (full throttle)  either from standstill or while driving the car combines all available torque  from both electric motor and petrol engine, even the small motor generator MG1 can add extra bhp to pull the car faster. 
The latest Toyota hybrids 2019 onwards are more energetic and nicer to drive not entirely because of the petrol engines has been improved,  but the major factors here are on the electric side ( new Battery and new electric motors and gears, differential and bearings ) and reduced total car weight.
The new tech allows the car to perform on higher percentage as ev than before, where the beginning the hybrids were petrol cars with most sophisticated start stop technology. 

[Roker]

Note at no time is there a direct connection from the engine to the wheels it's via the elelectric motor

[Don Mac]

3 hours ago, Roker said:

Note at no time is there a direct connection from the engine to the wheels it's via the elelectric motor

You could actually say that the engine is always connected to the wheels, in the same way as it would be in a more conventional gearbox. The tricky thing to get your head around is that the two electric motors control whether any torque is transferred between engine and gearbox (whether the rotation of one will cause rotation in the other). Saying that it is connected via the motor could, although a true statement, be mistaken to mean that the engine only supplies electric power to the motor.

The clever thing about the Toyota system is that the wheels can be driven by the electric motor, mechanically by the engine or by a combination of the two - whilst power from the engine can also be used to generate electricity for the motor.

Apologies for being pedantic (again). I think that I'm a hybrid junkie.... 

 

[roadster-rav]

Just to further underline Don Mac's description note that both motor-generator 2 and the annular gear of the epicyclic cluster are directly connected ( via conventional gears ) to the differential/wheels. In fact the parking pawl engages with the outside of the annular gear. It is via this gear that the petrol engine contributes directly to output when required.

[Edgie70]

Just wanted to say thanks for all your replies, it's all been an interesting read ☺️

[twintopp]

hi, i`m 73 and still love to rag it, throwing it about on moor roads and country lanes, i think the car is very responsive and handles great, don`t worry buy one and enjoy.