Supermarket Fuel

[anchorman]

43 minutes ago, dannyboy413 said:

Is it worthwhile adding Redex to a newish car? I have not seen any E5 near me since just after I bought my YC, certainly the place I use only has E10. I use the same place for 95% of my petrol purchases as I get 4 cent/litre discount. 🙂.

As long as it’s the proper petrol additive at the right dosage.  

[MikeSh]

4 hours ago, dannyboy413 said:

Is it worthwhile adding Redex to a newish car?...

... I use the same place for 95% of my petrol purchases as I get 4 cent/litre discount. 🙂.

Given the extra cost of additives, no. Take the discount.

Further up someone used the "I believe" thing. Well, you can believe that Tesco want to kill your car, or that aliens are among us, or that God is great, or that vaccines have chips in them, etc.

But modern cars are built to run on what is available in their market. If you really expect to keep your car for 10-15-20 years you might feel the £££ in extra cost of additives or posh fuel is worth it. (But you will never really know if it actually made a difference).

If that 0.02% increase in power at the green light is really important, go for it (even if it is just an illusion). But if you are just trundling around like 99% of us, put what is available, cheap and within the car maker's spec in the tank.

[TonyHSD]

I drive my car long enough to know how the car drives, I service it by myself too and I can see how the parts are wearing with the time, mileage and different fuels. I can sense any so slightly different noises and performance and efficiency differences after each fill up with petrol from various petrol stations or differential types of petrol e5 e10. 
Anyone else who has developed the same experience with his own car will find the difference same as me and it will have his own petrol preference, which type and from where to buy because no two petrol stations sell the exact same fuels even if they are under one name, and petrol comes from the same factory.
No arguing here, no point really as many will never understand or sense those differences we are talking about and all that matters for them is to buy the cheapest possible fuels. 
Another matter are the car additives. Some believe that these are snake oils, I can tell you that if you use quality ones, correctly they work indeed, and if they don’t means you either didn’t dose it correctly or there was no need of using any of them to begin with. 
For the e10 in your car tank and moisture I can also tell you that thete is no problem at as long as the fuel tank is placed and closed no moisture will accumulate inside and the only way water gets in is when filling up mixed with fuel plus other contaminants. And this is where the things can get nasty and we can have bad experiences with fuels and what exactly make fuels and petrol stations so different in between. 

[anchorman]

10 hours ago, MikeSh said:

Given the extra cost of additives, no. Take the discount.

Further up someone used the "I believe" thing. Well, you can believe that Tesco want to kill your car, or that aliens are among us, or that God is great, or that vaccines have chips in them, etc.

But modern cars are built to run on what is available in their market. If you really expect to keep your car for 10-15-20 years you might feel the £££ in extra cost of additives or posh fuel is worth it. (But you will never really know if it actually made a difference).

If that 0.02% increase in power at the green light is really important, go for it (even if it is just an illusion). But if you are just trundling around like 99% of us, put what is available, cheap and within the car maker's spec in the tank.

And when the injectors gum up, what then.  

[Max_Headroom]

 

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But modern cars are built to run on what is available in their market. If you really expect to keep your car for 10-15-20 years you might feel the £££ in extra cost of additives or posh fuel is worth it. (But you will never really know if it actually made a difference).

Its not about what the car will run on its about whether you believe the additives will keep your car running better than if you dont use fuel with the additives, the video below shows the effects of carbon build up over time you may believe the additives will not help i believe they will and i am happy to pay the extra for the premium petrol, there is a lot of info about carbon build up in direct injected petrol engine and its not taking 10 years for it to become a problem this fuel may save you an expensive trip to the garage!

As i have said I use Momentum 99 i dont believe the extra additives are "Snake Oil" and as the difference in price between Shell E10 and Momentum 99 (E5) is a couple of pence (last time i checked) i think its worth the extra.

 

 

[bathtub tom]

6 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

For the e10 in your car tank and moisture I can also tell you that thete is no problem at as long as the fuel tank is placed and closed no moisture will accumulate inside and the only way water gets in is when filling up mixed with fuel plus other contaminants.

As the level of fuel in your tank goes down, what do you think fills the space? It's air and air contains moisture (water vapour).

[Stivino]

5 minutes ago, bathtub tom said:

As the level of fuel in your tank goes down, what do you think fills the space? It's air and air contains moisture (water vapour).

Exactly.  Otherwise, the tank would cave in.

[Max_Headroom]

19 minutes ago, bathtub tom said:

As the level of fuel in your tank goes down, what do you think fills the space? It's air and air contains moisture (water vapour).

 

I dont know what Tony meant by "as long as the fuel tank is placed and closed no moisture" give the guy a chance to explain.

As for moisture all fuel tanks will have a certain amount of condensation in them due to the fuel being replaced by air but obviously its not a big deal and it causes no harm to the way the engine runs or we would have hundreds of posts about it here and in other forums.

I remember back in the day people used to say dont use the garage on the outskirts of towns  as they dont sell a lot of fuel and there will be lots of water in the tanks i can honestly say in 40+ years of motoring i have never has a breakdown caused by water in my fuel!

 

Quote

For the e10 in your car tank and moisture I can also tell you that thete is no problem at as long as the fuel tank is placed and closed no moisture will accumulate inside and the only way water gets in is when filling up mixed with fuel plus other contaminants. And this is where the things can get nasty and we can have bad experiences with fuels and what exactly make fuels and petrol stations so different in between. 

 

[Cyker]

The whole water-absorption thing should be a non-issue for most people; It's a bit like diesel in a way - The worst case is if you only half-fill the tank and then leave it for over a month without using it.

If you always fill it up, there won't be much moisture in the tank for it to absorb, and if you drive the car regularly any water in there won't get a chance to settle.

Modern tanks aren't open to the atmosphere to prevent fumes escaping, which is why they hiss when you open the cap, as they are at a lower pressure than the outside as fuel is used up. They have a pressure relief so the tank doesn't have such a high vacuum the fuel pump is overworked, but I *think* that has to go through a filter, so while some moisture will get in it shouldn't be enough to be a problem.

As for e.g. Redex, it's been shown to improve fuel economy and performance noticeably, but not when used regularly, as they're subject to the whole diminishing returns thing and will plateau off. Its effects are most noticeable if the car has deposits built up in it that need cleaning, but on a clean engine they usually have very little effect.

I'd stick some V-Power diesel in my old Mk1 D4D if I noticed it was feeling a bit sluggish, which usually helped, but it's not something I'd do regularly.

I think the stronger additive packages and lower E are better for people who don't drive much or drive exclusively at slow urban speeds, but if you drive regularly, esp at speeds where the engine can get good and hot, it's less useful, as the higher heat will help burn off deposits.

I still chuck a tank of fancy stuff in my Mk4 if I know I'm going to go on a longer journey on that tank, more out of habit from the D4D than anything else, but so far my experiments with different fuels haven't yielded any large differences in performance or economy, aside from small but noticeable changes in engine smoothness. There may be some small differences but it's very hard to tell with hybrid system.

 

[Max_Headroom]

 

 

[MikeSh]

5 hours ago, anchorman said:

And when the injectors gum up, what then.  

I've not noticed a plague of cars having this problem, so I do wonder how much of a problem it really is.

I can believe that some early injection systems might be prone to it, but we are long past that and I'd think most manufacturers design their systems to deal with it.

[Max_Headroom]

 

 

 

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I've not noticed a plague of cars having this problem, so I do wonder how much of a problem it really is.

 Why would you have noticed "a plague of cars" having the problem, google carbon build up on valves in direct injection petrol engines and you'll se how big a problem it is, then watch the guy in the video explain why its a problem with these engines.

 

[TonyHSD]

Moisture in fuel is so little quantity that it gets burned during combustion without any issues, it’s even good to clean top of pistons.  We have cars stood for 6 months without use and started first time without any issues, e10 95 regular petrol Inside. No water, no dangerous condensation. 
Valves only get dirty on direct injection cars, those with port injection are totally safe.
Here an example of a high mileage car intake. It’s a  port injection on 2ZR-FXE.
Regular use, motorway drives, top tier fuels and oils, regular service, no problems with injectors, valves, or anything else. The dirt on the intake galleys is oil from pcv  and some soot from egr. 

  

[anchorman]

10 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

I've not noticed a plague of cars having this problem, so I do wonder how much of a problem it really is.

I can believe that some early injection systems might be prone to it, but we are long past that and I'd think most manufacturers design their systems to deal with it.

That’s another “I believe” thing.  I don’t anything about you but if you were a mechanic you’d know that it is an issue as are sticking EGR valves and intake carbon fouling.  I don’t care if other people ignore my advice but I wouldn’t give it on something I wasn’t sure about unless it came with a very clear proviso that it was just an opinion  - especially if it might end up costing them a lot of money.  The originators of such advice are seldom to be seen when the proverbial hits the fan, they seem to take cover.  I’ve read many report comparing standard and high grade fuel that all conclude there is not enough improvement in fuel consumption to justify the cost.  They all seem to thick to understand that it doesn’t revolve around that, the main one is what it does to fuel systems.  I also would add to the moisture issue that in terms of the calorific value but I spent 17 years in brake development and tiny traces of moisture can ruin a £2000 ABS pump that has components clearances measured in microns and I’m quite happy to apply that to injectors that can atomise fuel precisely up to five times per revolution of an engine.  Of course if you change every three years on a PCP it won’t matter to you but it will to someone else as sure as eggs are eggs.  

[Max_Headroom]

Fortunately Toyota owners have nothing to worry about - 

 

 

[Cyker]

I can't imagine it's very common unless the car isn't driven much.

With diesels that was the #1 cause, as nasty sooty deposits would clog up the injectors if the engine was always cold. I remember noticing a performance loss in my old Mk1 D4D in the first month of owning it, and someone here suggested I just go for a massive hoon and that did the trick!  The suspect was just engine deposits, and I found a combination of a more aggressive driving style and occasional use of V-Power diesel helped stave that off.

I thought petrols would be a lot less prone to this sort of thing, as they burn much cleaner and petrol is a solvent anyway, but apparently even petrol engines are prone to that when cold.

 

[anchorman]

1 minute ago, TonyHSD said:

Moisture in fuel is so little quantity that it gets burned during combustion without any issues, it’s even good to clean top of pistons. 
Valves only get dirty on direct injection cars, those with port injection are totally safe. Here an example of a high mileage car intake., port injection on 2ZR-FXE. Regular use, motorway drives, top tier fuels and oils, regular service, no problems with injectors, valves, or anything else. 

The dirt is oil from crankcase ventilation and some soot from egr. 

It will eventually Tony.  

[anchorman]

2 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

Fortunately Toyota owners have nothing to worry about - 

 

 

It is a fact that the M15 in the MkIV has D4S injection in both the inlet manifold and the head (indirect and direct).  

[Max_Headroom]

4 minutes ago, Cyker said:

can't imagine it's very common unless the car isn't driven much.

Did you watch the video?

It has nothing to do with how much you  drive it its caused by the way the fuel is burnt so will eventually become a problem.

[Cyker]

That's one thing I've always been puzzled by -  Almost all diesels are direct injection, but I've rarely heard of them getting the sort of valve-sealing problems from carbon buildup that direct injection petrols seem very prone to!

 

[Cyker]

2 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

Did you watch the video?

It has nothing to do with how you drive it its caused by the way the fuel is burnt.

TBH you lot are posting so fast and I can't keep up!  

I'm still on injectors, not gotten to valves yet!!  

[Max_Headroom]

4 minutes ago, Cyker said:

That's one thing I've always been puzzled by -  Almost all diesels are direct injection, but I've rarely heard of them getting the sort of valve-sealing problems from carbon buildup that direct injection petrols seem very prone to!

 

 

Diesel goes directly into the cylinder so they dont suffer the same problem the petrol's do - 

 

[Cyker]

Don't they do that in direct injection petrols too tho'...??

[anchorman]

48 minutes ago, Cyker said:

That's one thing I've always been puzzled by -  Almost all diesels are direct injection, but I've rarely heard of them getting the sort of valve-sealing problems from carbon buildup that direct injection petrols seem very prone to!

 

It happens because the crankcase vapours are recycled through the inlet manifold.  On top of that they can alter the chemistry of the exhaust by lowering combustion temperature and that is done by recycling some of the exhaust through the inlet manifold so all this garbage hits the inlet valves.  They do in our Toyota petrol engine but it is continuously washed clean by injectors in the inlet manifold.  

[Cyker]

My D4D had an EGR and I'm sure that was sending some very sooty air back into the engine, judging by how much was built up inside the EGR valve!  

I don't know if diesels have PCVs like petrols do tho'