Supermarket Fuel

[Paul john]

There is so much chat and noise on opinion on this subject. 
if everyone was soo bothered about ethanol water absorption and how that affected carbon valve buildup after 10 years of driving. 
why are we not all using Shell v-power with redex additives ?

i guess the most prolific posters will say “cost”

i say you get what you pay for. I cant really see champ car drivers using e10. 
are we really saying we all want the performance in our aygo of a 2l champ car?

are we really saying oh “blame the government / eu / fascist petrol barons” for forcing us in this direction?

the great thing about the human race is “freedom of choice” 

choose what you believe is right. Not what other people tell you is right.

also google 2star 3star 4star petrol and the 1970’s fuel crisis. 
this issue and the “guidance” is not new. 

[MikeSh]

21 minutes ago, Paul john said:

i guess the most prolific posters will say “cost”

Well, yes. If you do a fair mileage then all those 5-10p/litres add up to a bit of money - maybe £50-£100 a year.

Spending that 'might' prevent a problem building, but also not spending it might not have any significant effects. (And the savings might pay for fixing anything that does happen.)

So, yeah ... do what you feel is right for you - there are no absolutes here I think.

[dannyboy413]

Wish I hadn't asked now! 😄

[Cyker]

Eyyy we all like a bit of banter  

[anchorman]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

My D4D had an EGR and I'm sure that was sending some very sooty air back into the engine, judging by how much was built up inside the EGR valve!  

I don't know if diesels have PCVs like petrols do tho'

They do indeed 👍

[Max_Headroom]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

Don't they do that in direct injection petrols too tho'...??

Yes but at a different place hence the problem

[Max_Headroom]

36 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

Well, yes. If you do a fair mileage then all those 5-10p/litres add up to a bit of money - maybe £50-£100 a year

How much do you think it would cost to have the valves replaced in your direct injection petrol?

[bathtub tom]

May I further 'stir the pot', by pointing out that for every gallon of petrol consumed, 10 gallons of water are ejected down the exhaust. This is because of humidity in the air. Think about a 1 litre engine running at 3K RPM, that's 1.5K litres of air passing through it every minute. How much water is in that air?

[Stivino]

10 minutes ago, bathtub tom said:

May I further 'stir the pot', by pointing out that for every gallon of petrol consumed, 10 gallons of water are ejected down the exhaust. This is because of humidity in the air. Think about a 1 litre engine running at 3K RPM, that's 1.5K litres of air passing through it every minute. How much water is in that air?

Where did you get your figures from?

 

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, Max_Headroom said:

How much do you think it would cost to have the valves replaced in your direct injection petrol?

Not cheap for sure. But with direct injection although I can understand possible injector issues being due to (or fixed by) petrol type or additives, I don't really see how that would help the valves.

[anchorman]

25 minutes ago, bathtub tom said:

May I further 'stir the pot', by pointing out that for every gallon of petrol consumed, 10 gallons of water are ejected down the exhaust. This is because of humidity in the air. Think about a 1 litre engine running at 3K RPM, that's 1.5K litres of air passing through it every minute. How much water is in that air?

There’s a difference between it going down the exhaust and it being fed through the fuel system.  

[Cyker]

53 minutes ago, bathtub tom said:

May I further 'stir the pot', by pointing out that for every gallon of petrol consumed, 10 gallons of water are ejected down the exhaust. This is because of humidity in the air. Think about a 1 litre engine running at 3K RPM, that's 1.5K litres of air passing through it every minute. How much water is in that air?

Sorry but the water/steam in the exhaust is not due to humidity in the air, it's just a byproduct of combustion!

A bit like us, cars take in fuel and oxygen and combine them to make energy, and produce CO2 and water as waste products.

Petrol and diesel are hydrocarbons - Long chains of Carbon atoms with Hydrogens to fill in the blanks:

Carbon atoms have 4 'links' that want to glom onto something; with hydrocarbon chains, 2 are usually joined to another carbon atom on either 'side', and the other 2 are joined to hydrogen atoms (Except the end ones, which have 3 H atoms).

Oxygen has 2 links and also wants to glom onto things, even more strongly than H and C.

It requires energy (i.e. heat) to break the bonds between all the Cs and Hs, but a lot more energy (i.e even more heat!) is released from them making new bonds with Oxygen atoms, so all the H's and C's get split apart, and joined to O's, so you go from lots of C's and even more H's, to lots of 2xH's filling in the O's 2 'links', and 2xO's (With their 2 links each) filling in C's 4 links.

(i.e. CO2 and H2O, water)

 

[Roker]

On 9/23/2023 at 11:38 AM, Max_Headroom said:

 

Like most things in life its only bad if you over do it -

Ethanol, or ethyl alcohol, is the only type of alcohol that you can drink without seriously harming yourself, and then only if it hasn't been denatured or doesn't contain toxic impurities. Ethanol is sometimes called grain alcohol because it is the main type of alcohol produced by grain fermentation.

The Difference Between Alcohol and Ethanol (thoughtco.com)

I used to work in a distillery 

[Max_Headroom]

8 hours ago, MikeSh said:

Not cheap for sure. But with direct injection although I can understand possible injector issues being due to (or fixed by) petrol type or additives, I don't really see how that would help the valves.

It seems to me you are not willing to accept additives can help even though I have posted enough evidence to support my side of the argument and you have posted nothing but your thoughts on the subject to prove me wrong.

As I have said several times I am happy to pay the small additional cost of using Tesco E5 instead of  the big brand E10 as I believe the addetives do help keep the fuel system and engine cleaner than E10, if this was all snake oil I am sure they would have been challenged for false advertising by now. 

The latest V power advert. 

[MikeSh]

6 hours ago, Max_Headroom said:

It seems to me you are not willing to accept additives can help

I think you should read my post that you quoted a bit more carefully.

As to evidence i'm afraid YouTube videos don't really cut it. I've read numerous articles online (and yes, they aren't really evidence either) and the general opinion is that additives may help older, high mileage, poorly maintained vehicles, but are unlikely to do much of anything for newer ones.

Similarly with fuels. Branded ones may have more detergents, etc, than supermarket, but that doesn't mean they are better for the car. Anyone who has overdone the detergent in a dishwasher or washing machine will attest to that.

So in summary, I'm not saying additives are never any use, just that for the average driver of a reasonably modern car (which is most of us here, even though we might think we are special) they are probably just burning cash.

[Max_Headroom]

3 hours ago, MikeSh said:

the general opinion is that additives may help older, high mileage, poorly maintained vehicles, but are unlikely to do much of anything for newer ones.

That makes no sense whatsoever as it states in the V power description below "and protects against future build-up on vital engine parts"  if you use it in a new car from day one there should be no significant build up of carbon on the valves and in the injectors.

 

Cleans critical engine parts

New & Improved Shell V-Power unleaded contains three times more cleaning and protection molecules than our regular fuel helping remove performance-robbing deposits and protects against future build-up on vital engine parts such as intake valves or fuel injectors.

 

Quote

So in summary, I'm not saying additives are never any use, just that for the average driver of a reasonably modern car (which is most of us here, even though we might think we are special) they are probably just burning cash.

This has already been discussed,  there is a problem with carbon build up on valves of direct injected petrol engines  these engines are in your "reasonably modern cars" and as the video and a member has already stated Toyota have now switched to a different system to try to prevent it why would they do this if it wasn't an issue?

Again i will point out that i am happy to pay the extra  2 pence per litre for super unleaded with the extra additives in my view using it over E10  its not just burning cash and i am sure if what Shells claim about the benefits of V power were snake oil they would have been outed by the motoring press years ago. 

 

[MikeSh]

30 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

it states in the V power description below "and protects against future build-up on vital engine parts"

Gosh, you believe them?

Back in (I think) the 1980s Shell introduced a wonderful new additive. Withdrawn after a time because it was found to trash the valves on quite a lot of cars. (I was using Shell at that time and my 2nd gen Carina had to have them replaced.)

So forgive me if I treat Big Oil PR with an unhealthy amount of salt.

Supermarket fuels have additives in them too, so they may also protect ...

 

30 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

there is a problem with carbon build up on valves of direct injected petrol engines 

Yes, but you haven't explained how a petrol, or additive therein, will clean the intake valves of a direct injection engine.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I don't see how ...

[Max_Headroom]

1 hour ago, MikeSh said:

Gosh, you believe them?

I believe their claims that using V power from new will keep the engine clean and the additives will clean a dirty engines with carbon build up and protect them from future build up, as i said if they were false they would have been pulled up by the motoring press years ago and as we all know they haven't in fact they have recently claimed - 

 

Quote

Supermarket fuels have additives in them too, so they may also protect ...

I am not sure why you added this as i have stated several times that i use Tesco Momentum 99 E5 because it has additives, and because its only slightly more expensive than the big brands E10.

 

Quote

 

Yes, but you haven't explained how a petrol, or additive therein, will clean the intake valves of a direct injection engine.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I don't see how ...

 

 

As for how does it work i assume its the same as this but  lot less concentrated so it does it over time rather than in 30 minutes - 

 

 

Keep it clean - 

 

 

 

[Max_Headroom]

Auto Express - 

Prevention and cure  

Shell V-Power has special cleaning molecules that work on those deposits from the first tankful, with unwanted deposits removed from critical engine components so they can be burned away in the combustion chamber. 

Exactly how long the full cleaning process takes depends on numerous factors, including engine type, how a car has been driven and for how many miles it’s been run on regular fuels. In addition to cleaning existing deposits, running a car on Shell V-Power helps avoid them building up in the first place.* 

New and improved

First launched internationally in 1998, Shell V-Power has been continually tweaked by Shell, with each new formulation taking around five years to develop. Shell has around 150 scientists and engineers working to make each iteration of Shell V-Power better than the last. The latest formulation, launched in the UK in 2023, now cleans those critical engine parts we’ve been talking about of performance-robbing deposits by up to 100 per cent.* 

Once fully cleaned, an engine will regain lost performance and efficiency. The ongoing development of Shell V-Power means the fuel technology keeps up with engine trends, which for today’s cars involves prevalent turbocharging and downsizing and the common use of direct injection. In the process, though, Shell has managed to strike a balance with its formulation to ensure the fuel is just as effective for older engines too. 

Additionally, we need to think about the octane rating. The Shell V-Power petrol formulation found at UK pumps is 99 RON, compared to 95 RON for regular unleaded. Using Shell V-Power with its higher octane rating gives a more stable combustion, reducing the probability of uncontrolled combustion or engine ‘knock’. The higher RON means it can tolerate higher compression ratios and/or more advanced ignition timing; engine designers can utilise this fuel quality to tune their engines for improved performance and efficiency.**

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/articles/360589/shell-v-power#:~:text=Shell V-Power has special,away in the combustion chamber

[MikeSh]

54 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

As for how does it work i assume its the same as this but  lot less concentrated so it does it over time rather than in 30 minutes - 

Er, right. As I suspected I think you don't quite understand direct injection, but I can't be bothered to pursue it any more.

 

56 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

as i said if they were false they would have been pulled up by the motoring press years ago

Oh, come on. The motoring press are significantly dependent on advertisers for income. They are not unbiased, especially with these sort of claims which are nebulous and thus hard to prove or disprove. (I imagine the adverts have a rack of caveats attached in the small print.)

[Max_Headroom]

13 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

Oh, come on. The motoring press are significantly dependent on advertisers for income. They are not unbiased, especially with these sort of claims which are nebulous and thus hard to prove or disprove. (I imagine the adverts have a rack of caveats attached in the small print.)

Do fuel companies advertise heavily in the motoring mags etc?

I haven't read auto express in many years do they run a lot of Shell adverts they didn't back in the day?

They would make a massive name for themselves if they could prove Shell were lying about the effects of additives in their most expensive unleaded fuel!

[Max_Headroom]

1 hour ago, MikeSh said:

Er, right. As I suspected I think you don't quite understand direct injection, but I can't be bothered to pursue it any more.

 

Quote

Valvoline engineer Michael Warholic reports that Valvoline regularly inspects the insides of engines with a borescope, and what they are finding is disconcerting, “It's likely you'll see a small amount of oil running down the sides of the valve,” he said. Without gasoline washing them clean, that oil can bake onto the valve and accumulate into carbon buildup.

Obviously as stated above the additives will not help the carbon build up on the valves of the direct injection engine but it will keep the injectors and other parts of the fuel system clean.

 

Auto express article -

In older port-injection petrol engines, these deposits form on the back of inlet valves, acting like a sponge, soaking up fuel that would otherwise go into the engine.

Injector deposit build-up is a particular issue for modern engines using direct injection, which involves placing the injector inside the combustion chamber, a harsh environment that can accelerate the collection of unwanted deposits. 

[Dezzer21]

 Max Headroom

Again i will point out that i am happy to pay the extra  2 pence per litre for super unleaded with the extra additives in my view using it over E10  

I don’t know where your local garage is but my local Shell garage charges 18 pence per litre more for v power .

[TonyHSD]

Guys , why just not leave it. No point of argument here. Supermarket fuels are generally speaking lower quality than top tiers fuels from bp, Shell, esso, texaco etc, when compared e10 vs e10. However if you use e5 from Tesco for example in comparison to e10 from Shell then the supermarket wins. 
I had almost an empty tank this morning and I really wanted to fill up e10 from bp as I haven’t used different from Tesco momentum for a long time now, the price was 1.56 per litre but the shop was closed, so again I filled up at my favourite Tesco e5 for 1.57 per litre. 
Usually when using the same fuel for some time and then you get used to how the engine sounds and the car performance, then after you switch to another type petrol and you can note the difference easily. 
Same applies to tyres, engine oils, wipers etc .  I had once purchased 4 new Firestone tyres to find out that they were much worse than the old Michelin and Yokohama they replaced, what a joke thought then.  Lesson learned. If you happy with something either been tyres, engine oil or petrol, just stick with it and think no twice to buy again and again. For some will be e10, for others e5, I know what my car likes and what I like and spend my money on. Tyres - Goodyear, petrol - Tesco e5 , oil - Petronas , filters - blueprints., mann and list goes on. I don’t need a dealer, a journalist or a engineer to tell me which is which, I had it, I test it, pass, I am buying it. , not happy., walk away. 

[Max_Headroom]

 

27 minutes ago, Dezzer21 said:

 Max Headroom

Again i will point out that i am happy to pay the extra  2 pence per litre for super unleaded with the extra additives in my view using it over E10  

I don’t know where your local garage is but my local shell garage charges 18 pence per litre more for v power .

 

As you can see below Momentum 99 (E5) is 164.9p and Shell standard unleaded is 155.9p so i am actually paying 9p per litre (i did say it was a while since i checked) it could be worse i could be paying 20p more  per litre if i was using V-power.

As has been said by members in the thread MPG is better and the engine seems to run smoother and the additives will keep it that way, at the end of the day its personal choice if you want to use the cheapest fuel you can find go for it i dont mind paying a little extra  because i feel the benefits are worth it.