Supermarket Fuel

[RonYarisX]

Every engine I've owned hasn't given a toss who's fuel they've been feeding off, my wallet however prefers the cheapest. I have never detected any gain in mpg using one fuel against another and to be honest, I'm unsure how anyone could outside labratory conditions.

There's a very easy test that, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has conducted. It involves all those who say their car works better with one fuel vs another.

What you do is get half a dozen of those people and give them six identical brand new cars. Tell them each car has been filled up with different fuels and at the end of the week, get them to swap cars. By the end of week six they'll have driven all six cars. Ask those people to rate them from the best and worst - best mpg, smoothest engine etc.

How many of you seriously believe any two people will come up with the same results?

Now the twist is that what I'd actually have done, was filled all six cars up with the same fuel, I'd have just told the drivers I'd filled up with different fuels. 🤣   You can bet your last penny nobody will say all cars were the same.

When that test has finished repeat it with six more armchair experts, only this time tell them which fuel is in each car. ( but don't tell them it's the same fuel they're using each time ). What do you reckon the results would be after six weeks?  This time I'm willing to bet that they'll all give similar ratings - the most expensive v-power super-duper fuel will obviously be the most popular, the rubbish from Morrisons cheapest fuel on the market will be bottom. ( It'd be Home Bargins if they supplied petrol )

I love mind games but for the individuals involved it'd prove nothing. If someone feels they're better off with the most expensive fuel then it's impossible to change their mind. And there absolutely nothing wrong with that.  If people are happy then that's all that ever matters.

I'm now off to wash my shirts with new formula turbo charged Persil automatic because Persil's old stuff that made my shirts whiter than white just wasn't good enough.  🤣   Don't you just love the power of advertising.

[anchorman]

15 minutes ago, RonYarisX said:

Every engine I've owned hasn't given a toss who's fuel they've been feeding off, my wallet however prefers the cheapest. I have never detected any gain in mpg using one fuel against another and to be honest, I'm unsure how anyone could outside labratory conditions.

There's a very easy test that, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has conducted. It involves all those who say their car works better with one fuel vs another.

What you do is get half a dozen of those people and give them six identical brand new cars. Tell them each car has been filled up with different fuels and at the end of the week, get them to swap cars. By the end of week six they'll have driven all six cars. Ask those people to rate them from the best and worst - best mpg, smoothest engine etc.

How many of you seriously believe any two people will come up with the same results?

Now the twist is that what I'd actually have done, was filled all six cars up with the same fuel, I'd have just told the drivers I'd filled up with different fuels. 🤣   You can bet your last penny nobody will say all cars were the same.

When that test has finished repeat it with six more armchair experts, only this time tell them which fuel is in each car. ( but don't tell them it's the same fuel they're using each time ). What do you reckon the results would be after six weeks?  This time I'm willing to bet that they'll all give similar ratings - the most expensive v-power super-duper fuel will obviously be the most popular, the rubbish from Morrisons cheapest fuel on the market will be bottom. ( It'd be Home Bargins if they supplied petrol )

I love mind games but for the individuals involved it'd prove nothing. If someone feels they're better off with the most expensive fuel then it's impossible to change their mind. And there absolutely nothing wrong with that.  If people are happy then that's all that ever matters.

I'm now off to wash my shirts with new formula turbo charged Persil automatic because Persil's old stuff that made my shirts whiter than white just wasn't good enough.  🤣   Don't you just love the power of advertising.

It’s nothing to do with advertising, what happens inside a new E6 standard engine has nothing to do with your first six Model T’s.  It’s got more to do with clever clogs that don’t understand the implications.  Crack on using the cheapest, frankly I don’t care who listens and who doesn’t.  

[Max_Headroom]

51 minutes ago, anchorman said:

It’s nothing to do with advertising, what happens inside a new E6 standard engine has nothing to do with your first six Model T’s.  It’s got more to do with clever clogs that don’t understand the implications.  Crack on using the cheapest, frankly I don’t care who listens and who doesn’t.  

Spot on.

[Max_Headroom]

Quote

If someone feels they're better off with the most expensive fuel then it's impossible to change their mind. And there absolutely nothing wrong with that.  If people are happy then that's all that ever matters.

What i have never understood is why some people feel they have to try.

[Paul john]

On 9/25/2023 at 6:40 PM, Max_Headroom said:

As you can see below Momentum 99 (E5) is 164.9p and Shell standard unleaded is 155.9p so i am actually paying 9p per litre (i did say it was a while since i checked) it could be worse i could be paying 20p more  per litre if i was using V-power.

As has been said by members in the thread MPG is better and the engine seems to run smoother and the additives will keep it that way, at the end of the day its personal choice if you want to use the cheapest fuel you can find go for it i dont mind paying a little extra  because i feel the benefits are worth it.

And I’m betting that extra (@20p /litre) £9 per tank gives waay more smiles per mile valued at waay more than £9. 

I think of it sideways somedays. 
would you feed a racehorse crap hay and expect a Derby winner?

[dannyboy413]

19 minutes ago, Paul john said:

I think of it sideways somedays. 
would you feed a racehorse crap hay and expect a Derby winner?
 

I sometimes think that a horse I have put a bet on thinks it has to run sideways! 😄

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, Max_Headroom said:

What i have never understood is why some people feel they have to try.

I don't try as such. As @RonYarisX says, once someone has a thing in their head it's all but impossible to change it. Just look at the world ...

I just try and put alternatives out there, so those reading these kind of threads know that they have a choice of mindsets to hook up to.

[MikeSh]

54 minutes ago, Paul john said:

would you feed a racehorse crap hay and expect a Derby winner?

They feed them hay???

I thought it was other 'additives' 😉

[Paul john]

7 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

They feed them hay???

I thought it was other 'additives' 😉

Nah grass makes em fat

[anchorman]

10 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

I don't try as such. As @RonYarisX says, once someone has a thing in their head it's all but impossible to change it. Just look at the world ...

I just try and put alternatives out there, so those reading these kind of threads know that they have a choice of mindsets to hook up to.

You could also consider the possibility of good advice instead of rubbishing it.  In such cases where I’m not qualified to comment I tend to abstain.  

[Cyker]

58 minutes ago, dannyboy413 said:

I sometimes think that a horse I have put a bet on thinks it has to run sideways! 😄

Since you mentioned that, I have to derail this thread with the most awesome/stupidest thing you may well have ever seen:

 

[MikeSh]

44 minutes ago, anchorman said:

You could also consider the possibility of good advice instead of rubbishing it.

If I believe the advice is good, I don't rubbish it. Where I don't see good evidence then I question it.

If 'supermarket' fuel in the UK was as bad as is being proposed by some people I'm pretty sure it would be major news. It isn't.

Some of the info being propagated, eg. some YouTube videos, is from places outside the EU/UK where standards and governance are considerably looser. Until I see real evidence of widespread engine problems attributable to fuel*, not just anecdotal, individual cases, then I will choose to believe that any fuel of suitable specification will do the job.

( * There will of course be occasional mishaps - wrong spec mixed into tanker, wrong tank filled by driver, faulty filling station equipment like a leaking tank admitting groundwater, but those are just life being unhelpful.)

[Paul john]

7 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

If I believe the advice is good, I don't rubbish it. Where I don't see good evidence then I question it.

If 'supermarket' fuel in the UK was as bad as is being proposed by some people I'm pretty sure it would be major news. It isn't.

Some of the info being propagated, eg. some YouTube videos, is from places outside the EU/UK where standards and governance are considerably looser. Until I see real evidence of widespread engine problems attributable to fuel*, not just anecdotal, individual cases, then I will choose to believe that any fuel of suitable specification will do the job.

( * There will of course be occasional mishaps - wrong spec mixed into tanker, wrong tank filled by driver, faulty filling station equipment like a leaking tank admitting groundwater, but those are just life being unhelpful.)

I sort of agree with you. 

i have driven a prius of various gen since 2005.  With my gen 2 (back in the day)i redex the tank every 6 months. I never put “standard fuel in” only premium / momentum /  vmax. 
i only heard about gen2/gen3 egr probs on this forum but never experienced them myself even though gen2 96k gen2 147k…

i liken this discussion to spark plug choice. 
choose a denso they are ok. Choose an ngk they run a little hotter. Choose a Halfords “managers special” they are adequate. 

i don't think without some serious engineering mathematics on the quantum possibilities this argument will go away… everyone has some valid experience to contribute. Everyone has their own experience…

[Lawnmowerman]

In the eighties I worked for a large Audi/VW dealership and we had issues with Bosch K jetronic fuel systems. Audi sent a couple of engineers over and eventually decided it was the poor fuel in the UK.

Our reply was if they knew this then their engines should be engineered to accept the fuel available in the UK. They didn't agree.

I don't know if it is a German thing but we deal (different trade) with the largest Chainsaw manufacturer in the world. They won't supply brushcutter face & ear protection with a hard hat. Why not? They say nothing will fall on your head when using a brushcutter. We pointed out some operators need to work in hard hat areas.

They remain unmoved. When someone's mind is set it is very difficult to change.

[FROSTYBALLS]

My local fuel stations are Tesco, BP and Shell.

I tend to use Tesco Momentum E5 as it is only 1p per litre more expensive than Shell and BP E10 - currently £1.59.9 per litre as opposed to £1.58.9 - and has a better additive package than the Tesco E10.

Being a member of Costco, I could fill up there, but it is about 5 miles away, and always has queues - so any cost savings are reduced by the additional time taken up by the 10 mile return journey, and the queuing.

Never been bothered or swayed about fuel economy claims - the car does what it does, period. 

The car does seem to run better on E5 than E10 - so that's what I use.

My choice, my money.

[Stivino]

35 minutes ago, Paul john said:

i liken this discussion to spark plug choice. 
choose a denso they are ok. Choose an ngk they run a little hotter. Choose a halfords “managers special” they are adequate. 

Tosh

[Max_Headroom]

Could i ask those in the thread who have ruddished the views and evidence posted by members who believe super unleaded is better for your engine (as the new She'll 100% advert claims) if they believe the petrol companies  have been lying to us for years and it actually makes no difference whatsoever. 

[TonyHSD]

This example with new cars and a couple of drivers is totally wrong. 
Here we are talking about one car, one driver and different fuels.
More accurate will be same car, same driver just different petrols without driver to know where and when the fuel is filled up and see if he is gonna sense any difference. 
If someone can’t note any difference between different fuels means only one thing, the driver hasn’t know his own car well enough. This is also not a problem because not everyone is a car enthusiast, not everyone necessary care about its car or been interested of how the car works. As previously said, just jump in start and go. Well, in that case absolutely no matter what petrol is filled up., perhaps the cheapest is the best.

Before the e10 standard I was using exclusively regular 95 e5 at the time and never been fussy about any petrol, premium petrol only filled up if no regular was available, however once I tried 99 from a texaco garage and it was a total disaster. Anyway, since the new standard came, with e10 95  I noticed immediate change in engine noise, performance and efficiency. 3-5mpg down, a lot noisier and less power, especially when going uphill to join motorways. Tried e5 99 from Tesco in particular as price is equal to regular e10 from other places and the difference was obvious, engine became super quiet, responsive with very nice pull. 
Here we are sharing experiences only. Everyone is free to think, says, do anything they like. 

[Roker]

On 9/23/2023 at 11:38 AM, Max_Headroom said:

 

Like most things in life its only bad if you over do it -

Ethanol, or ethyl alcohol, is the only type of alcohol that you can drink without seriously harming yourself, and then only if it hasn't been denatured or doesn't contain toxic impurities. Ethanol is sometimes called grain alcohol because it is the main type of alcohol produced by grain fermentation.

The Difference Between Alcohol and Ethanol (thoughtco.com)

Ethanol can be produced by processing,  this is still ethanol but not food quality,  food quality is produced by fermentation and then stilling

[Max_Headroom]

7 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Anyway, since the new standard came, with e10 95  I noticed immediate change in engine noise, performance and efficiency. 3-5mpg down, a lot noisier and less power, especially when going uphill to join motorways.

 

I have posted this to back up you MPG figures as i  expect the naysayers  will question them.

 

What are other downsides to E10 fuel? 

As discussed, E10 fuel can cause issues with seals in older vehicles, but there are downsides to the new mixture, even for modern vehicles. 

Petrol has a higher energy density than ethanol, that means that E10 fuel has a lower energy density than E5. In older cars, this can mean reduced fuel efficiency, as there will be more fuel needed to travel the same distance.  

In modern cars however, the ECU and sensors can detect the changes in fuel properties, and adjust the engine timing and fuel injection accordingly. A Finnish study concluded in 2011 that using E10 results in the same miles per gallon as E5.  

Ethanol is also hygroscopic, meaning that it absorbs water. If left exposed to the outside atmosphere for too long, the fuel will absorb moisture from the air. This can cause serious issues with steel fuel tanks, lines and engine components.  

What is E10 fuel and will it damage my engine? | Bumper

 

[Graham47]

23 hours ago, Max_Headroom said:

What i have never understood is why some people feel they have to try.

🤔

[TonyHSD]

So I managed to filled up 33.5 ltrs of bp 95 e10 and guess, the car drives totally different. In town not a huge difference but going faster, joining motorway or uphill, engine is much louder and less powerful,  mpg got hit immediately too, 57mpg against 60mpg on Tesco e5 99 previously. More I drive on e10 more I dislike the car , but it is good from time to time to change so I can appreciate more the lesser amount of ethanol in the premium petrol. 

[Trewithy]

2 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

So I managed to filled up 33.5 ltrs of bp 95 e10 and guess, the car drives totally different. In town not a huge difference but going faster, joining motorway or uphill, engine is much louder and less powerful,  mpg got hit immediately too, 57mpg against 60mpg on Tesco e5 99 previously. More I drive on e10 more I dislike the car , but it is good from time to time to change so I can appreciate more the lesser amount of ethanol in the premium petrol. 

I agree.  My last fill was with Esso 95.  There is a harshness to the engine sound, it is not as smooth. Can't wait to use it up and get back on Tesco Momentum.

[anchorman]

The higher the octane rating, the more the engine management can advance the timing without the risk of knock (pinking).  Putting 95 in retards the timing so that’s  why it runs rough.  

[Cyker]

Normal cars are generally optimized for 95 so there shouldn't be any significant retarded ignition timing. The higher octane rating is of pretty much no consequence unless the car can take advantage of it, e.g. something like my buddy's old riced up Subaru Impreza, or turbo-charged engines.

The main benefit of the 'super' fuels for the likes of us is the cleaning additives and lower ethanol content.

 

I must say I find it surprising how many people here find a significant difference in their hybrids - So far I've found very little noticeable difference between the ones I've tried, with the exception of the Esso E5 super, but that's likely because it's E0 (Or at least was), and even then it was a very small difference, and only to the roughness of the engine when stationary charging. It was a much smaller difference than e.g. the difference I noticed in my Mk1 D4D between supermarket diesel and V-Power diesel, which had a noticeable change in smoothness and power delivery (There was a noticeable loss in low end torque but improvement in top end power).

I'm wondering if it's a freshness issue, e.g. if those of you that are finding significant differences don't drive much, so the increased additives in the Super are keeping it fresh for longer than the E10...?