is an Aygo a real Toyota, or something French ?

[jumbojake]

I love toyota/Lexus brand, and swore I would never buy European car again.

Now looking to downsize to a city car .... but I read the Aygo is the same as a Citroen and Peugeot ..... is the Aygo a real Toyota, can I rely on the usual Toyota quality mechanics ?

Do the Citroen/Peugeot Badge a Toyota, or the other way around ?

[Cyker]

The recent ones are pretty much all Toyota, but the original ones were a joint venture between the companies.

I'd say it was the perfect collaboration - Toyota made the important bits like the engine and chassis, while the french companies designed the body and I think the interior?

This is why the Aygo is an unusually good looking car for a Toyota of that period  

So you got french styling and japanese mechanicals, which is pretty much how you'd want that division of labour to go!   You definitely wouldn't want it the other way around!   )

It's one of the few cross-continent manufacturer collaborations that worked out really well!

[jumbojake]

that is really reassuring..  I do my own mechanics and the only thing good about those two brands is how they forced me to learn so much about repairing my early cars 🤬...  never want to go back ! ... I like the simple days of just changing fluids and checking brakes

You mention newer ones are more pure Toyota... do you know what year or phase they switched over ?

We're thinking of a 2020 car

 

Also, regardless of heritage, anything we should be wary of ... we're looking to go for a 2020 model, with auto box

[Wiz201]

The 2020 models were made after they separated from the joint merger Toyota had. The X shift auto box was pretty good (for a semi auto box anyway) if you don't mind it feeling a little clunky in the lower gears.

[Cyker]

It's the 2022 one (The AygoX) that's the all-Toyota one.

That said, I'd have 2nd thoughts about getting an automatic, as they all used Toyota's MMT single-clutch automated manual which, from what I've read on this forum alone over the years, has been one of the least reliable gearboxs they've ever made.

The AygoX switched to Toyota's unusually reliable CVT system and everyone who's had both on here have said it's a bazillion times better (Mainly because it actually works reliably  )

 

Edit: Thanks Wiz I forgot about the X-shift!

 

[Eddiefh]

I had one in where I work for a new alternator 190 thousand miles 10 days ago 

[Puglet]

Agree with above, we have a french one, but I only got ours cos of the toyota engine etc., I would run a mile if it had small french petrol engine! The Mk1s like ours had quite a few issues, some were fixed during it's life time but water leaks seem to plague all the Mk1s. The Mk2s from 2014 were a big improvement, better built and fixed a lot issues/design annoyances and fixed the dreaded water leaks which plagued the mk1s and X-shift appears more robust than Mk1 MMT. Even if you get a late model Mk2 (2020) you should be on safe ground and those models had android auto/carplay if that's important. 

My sister has a Mk2 Peugeot 108 with the toyota engine, I insisted she have toyota engine cos our Mk1 been so reliable, good job cos the 1.2 PSA engine in it's early years had issues and it had wet belt/cambelt, which sounded iffy and it was, so stuck with chain driven Toyota 1.0 thankfully, as you say see what happens when you let french loose on the mechanicals! Though saying that we had a number of peugeot big diesel campervans which were spot on, so they great at big diesels, on those we had more issues with the british built campervan bodies, but that's another few stories!

P.S. Just incase you are worried, the Toyota Aygo Mk2 only came with the Toyota 1.0 engine, only Peugeot/Citroen fitted the 1.2 PSA engine to their posher models, so you had to pay extra for a terrible engine!

[Cyker]

That was a good choice if the diesel Aygo was anything to go by!  

It had a PSA 1.4 HDi diesel engine and was somehow worse in almost every way than the Toyota 1.0L petrol engine  Not many people bought them so they're incredibly rare.

I don't know why they didn't put the Toyota 1.4D4D they used in the Mk1 and Mk2 Yaris - It had better HP, torque, economy, weight etc. than the PSA engine. It was already insane for a Mk1 Yaris, and would have been even more hilarious in something the size and weight of the Aygo  

 

[Puglet]

Yep, it soon got phased out cos it wasn't selling probably cos the toyota 1.0 petrol engine was so good and economical. Even worse now cos at least our aged 107 with it's toyota petrol engine is ULEZ compliant!

[flash22]

The Aygo X (KGB70) didn't come until 2021, that is a ground up Toyota

2020 Aygo Mk2 (KGB40) the auto will be the X-shift (last of the MMT - Automated manual) fine if it's under warranty but can get expensive if not

All Aygo's from 2005 onwards were/are produced it the Czech Republic

the Aygo uses the 1.0l 1KRFE engine and toyota gearbox (C551a in the case of the MMT) the 1.4 was killed off by 2007 (ford DLD-414/ PSA DV4TD)

 

if you intend to keep the car for more than a few years, look at the Yaris 1.5 Multimode CVT or 1.5 Hybrid if you need an auto

[FROSTYBALLS]

The Aygo/C1/107/108 were the product of a Joint Venture between Toyota and PSA (now Stellantis). The cars were produced in a Czech Replublic plant owned by the Joint Venture. The Joint Venture allowed Toyota and PSA to share development costs, etc.

The 1.0 litre engines are Toyota - later used in updated forms in the 2nd, 3rd & (in some markets) the 4th generatio Yaris, the Aygo X, etc.

In November 2018 PSA decided they weren't going to replace the C1/108, whereas Toyota were, and the Joint Venture ended. Toyota decided to buy the JV  plant, taking full control in January 2021.

Production of the Aygo/C1/108 ended late 2021.

[Wiz201]

13 hours ago, flash22 said:

if you intend to keep the car for more than a few years, look at the Yaris 1.5 Multimode CVT or 1.5 Hybrid if you need an auto

The Aygo X also has a CVT auto gearbox now 😉 

[DusanCZ]

15 hours ago, jumbojake said:

to je opravdu uklidňující.. Dělám své vlastní mechaniky a jediná věc, která je na těchto dvou značkách dobrá, je to, jak mě donutily naučit se tolik o opravách mých prvních aut 🤬 ... nikdy se nechci vrátit! ... Mám rád jednoduché dny, kdy se jen mění kapaliny a kontrolují brzdy

Zmiňuješ, že novější jsou čistější Toyota... nevíš v jakém roce nebo fázi přešli?

Uvažujeme o autě 2020

 

Také, bez ohledu na dědictví, na cokoli, čeho bychom se měli mít na pozoru... hledáme model 2020 s autoboxem

If it would work financially, I would rather go for the new Aygo X with a CVT than the older model Aygo with any automatic

[Cyker]

That would be optimal if they can stretch to it. If they really want an automatic but are on a budget, the 1.3L Mk1 Yaris is a similar size and apparently all had the much more reliable torque converter automatics instead of the horrible MMT system. Finding one in good condition may be tricky now tho', as a lot of them have rusted to death  

They should be pretty cheap by this point tho', even with the current inflated used car prices!

Just make sure it's a 1.3L and doesn't have the words Freetronic or MMT or Multimode, as those are the bad autoboxes!

The 1.0L Mk1 and later Mk2 Yaris all used the bad kind of autobox.

[haelewyn]

The engines are actually from Daihatsu that is kind of owned by toyota.

The AygoX is very strong and reliable.
First series had some (major) problems that were typical PSA sh*t but by the time the second series were sold, most things had been resolved.

The good things : 
- Reliable engine , in some movies I posted here, up to 300-400.000 km lifespan. Car has little or no known handicaps and is rated top in most reliability tops.
Great in cost to maintain, repair, tax, consumption. It's hard to go cheaper.
- 10 year warranty, 1 year extra after every maintenance done by dealer and up to 10 years
- Assistance included with every dealer maintenance (in my country it's like that... don't know if it's everywhere in Europe)
- Turns very short, kind of fun to drive once you master the clutch.
- Aygo X is wider so you will sit more comfortable with 2 people in the front and is also available with a good CVT, a canvas roof and many other specs like heated seats and with safety package always included on all versions. Aygo X is nicer to drive and feels more like a real car (Yaris chassis) while Aygo 1 and 2 drive like a micro car.
For instance : it was more struggling to overcome track formation on fast roads.

 

Bad things :

- XShift (on Aygo 1 and 2) not good, not reliable. Weak clutches, as well on (semi)automatic as on manual.
Improved by installing a bigger clutch disc which seems to last longer but still ...
- Clutch pedal in Aygo 1 and 2 : problematic. Grabs very high which I find not nice to drive.
Needs setting in a garage about every year which will cost extra to take the time to get access to the parts. Leaving from a traffic light still costs me an extra second in the Aygo3.
Aygo 3 doesn't have a manually adjusted clutch any more (cable system) but hydraulic system. It does still grab high though. Way high. Aygo 1 and 2 grabbing point is in the top 3 mm. AygoX (3) maybe in the last 7 mm.
- Not fast at all but the car does great even on the highway as long as you don't expect it to go faster than the legal maximum. Pulling up with anything like a recent agricultural tractor will leave you turning red on the cheaks.
- Small trunk, better in the AygoX. In the Aygo 1 and 2 rather unusable.
- Very narrow access to the back of the car in Aygo 1, 2, and 3. The seats in the back are to be considered as spare places or for children. You are not doing your grandma a favor by taking her with you in the back of your car. As well the space for knees as the very narrow door opening are problematic.
- Don't expect to buy a bargain car that is rather new. It will almost not have known any depreciation and I've seen 2017 cars nowadays getting sold for 10k or over.

- Stay away from 1.2 engines, only sold on  Citroen and Peugeot. This engine is a very troublesome design and is one of these who should have never reached production stage.

[FROSTYBALLS]

11 minutes ago, haelewyn said:

The engines are actually from Daihatsu that is kind of owned by toyota.

Toyota held a majority stake in Daihatsu (51%) from 1998, and became wholly owned by Toyota in 2016.

[dads Taxi x3]

If the car goes faster in reverse  than forward   its french   lol 😆 

[Cyker]

Great summary by @haelewyn

[haelewyn]

I should add that the oil level of the aygo 1.0 engine needs careful and regular follow up.

Engines that get some miles on will consume oil and the sump contains 3 liter max. 

Once you have a certain level of consumption (a new second hand owner doesn't know the consumption yet) it doesn't need many driving miles before being out of oil completely. 

[Vandals01]

Every car has issues, it's just a matter of what you are willing to put up with.

The problems I had with my 2012 Aygo Fire (Manual) are:

1. Faulty Electronic Power Steering Module (EPS).  It started off with Continuous Clicking around the gas peddle area when the car has completely turned off.  The clicking came from the relay(s) in the EPS itself.  Overtime, either the relays OR the solder on the relay connection gone bad.  Taking the EPS out for repair was a bit of a challenge.  The bottom 2 screws were easy (just stick a spanner up above the gas peddle).  The top screw however, be prepare to spend a hour or more on it.  At the end, I've replaced the EPS with a second hand from eBay and that seems to cure it.

2. Oil consumption.  Not every Aygo had it, but bad luck on me I guess.  I bought it at 2020 with 47K miles on the clock.  The engine oil were dark at the time of purchase which suggest it hasn't been changed for a while (probably 8K or more).  Anyway, it then consume 500ml for every 1000 miles (using 5w30).  At the start of 2023, I switch to 0w20 C5 and notice the oil consumption somehow gone down to 500ml for every 1500 miles (strange, but whatever).  I changed my oil every 5-6K miles.

3. Fast Tyres and Brake wear.  I'm using 155/65R14 Bridgestone Turanza T005.  The front pair will last around 20K.  To give you a comparison, my 2005 Clio uses 185/55R15 Michelin Energy Saver Plus and lasted 50K.  Not that I don't want to get Michelin for my Aygo, it's just Michelin doesn't make 155/65R14.  For brakes, a set of Brembo pads will last roughly 20K.

4. Awful Head Unit and Speakers.  If you know a little bit about sounds, you will definitely need to change them.  (I can live with the Clio's original sound system, but not on the first generation of Aygo.)

5. Water intrusion typically around 3 areas:  Door weather seal, Rear Centre brake light and Rear light clusters.  The problem I had is at the Passenger side Cluster.  Not the light assembly itself, but lower tab that the assembly slot into.  Smear silicone around the tab fixes my problem.

6. Broken exhaust hanger or Broken exhaust.  If you look at the back of the Aygo and saw the silencer dangling on one side, inspect further.  (My 2012 exhaust still intact, but my cousin's 2007 C1 broke back in 2021)

7. Corrosion at the hazard warning light / direction indicator stalk.  If any of them doesn't work, search YouTube for How To Videos.

8. Premature Clutch wear? My Aygo did 94K and still on its original Clutch.  Do note that around 2010, Toyota upgraded the clutch, so mine is probably the stronger version.

9. Squeak and rattle from the tailgate (just had to live with it).

 

Despite all these, I still loves my Aygo. 

(BTW, MK1 Aygo's fun rest inside 2nd gear.  It has the power to achieve 0 to 60 mph around 10 second if you push that 2nd gear hard.  Not that I needed it, but just to let you know it is there.)

[jumbojake]

1 hour ago, Vandals01 said:

Every car has issues, it's just a matter of what you are willing to put up with.

 

To be fair, you’re answered my question… as a Toyota/Lexus owner, do not expect any problems beyond normal servicing, tyres and brakes…

5 years with an Avensis, a dirty DPF, nothing else

9 years with is200d and only rear brake callipers 

7 years with rx450h and only problems when wife put diesel instead of petrol… AA sorted that and no problems 

the problems listed for your Aygo remind me of my days driving European cars… you have answered my question, thank you

[Vandals01]

To be fair, the biggest issue I had on my MK1 Aygo was the Electronic Power Steering Module (EPS).   Although not every Aygo has it, but I was the unlucky one.  A bit of research pin point the problem towards Toyota (not the French) as:

1. Some Yaris experienced the same problem

2. the Unit was manufactured by "Fujitsu" Japanese division in Spain.

 

Oil consumption could be a result of not keeping up with servicing by the previous owner. (Causing the oil control ring to seize.)

Broken exhaust at 14 years? (Perfectly acceptable)

 

The main point that drives you away, is probably the Squeak and Rattle.  Although I never driven a Lexus, but I've heard people saying how quiet it is.  Putting up with the Squeak as you drive over un-even surface will probably drive you mad.

[jumbojake]

both my Lexus do have some creaks in the cockpit plastics (never noticed it on the Avensis)... it's more noticeable as the cars are otherwise really quiet... it really annoyed me at first until I got a ride in a mates newish Mercedes, which sounded like lego be squeezed together .... just before the owner got stung with a £2000 bill for an ECU .... so agree there s a degree of perspective

[Puglet]

To be fair, Vandals car is a Mk1, imo you can't really compare to a Mk2 you were interested in. We have both Mk1 and Mk2 in the family and while I admit the Mk1 is cheaply made, basic car, the Mk2 is better built, better ride, nicer interior and more comfortable car. Not surprisingly the Mk2 was more expensive on comparision to our Mk1, and it shows in the quality of the car. Don't know for sure, but I suspect that Toyota had so many warranty issues with the Mk1 that they told the 'french' that the Mk2 was was going to be a better built/quality car and within reason it would have to cost more. Knowing the Peugoet/Citroen they probably thought their warranty claim levels were perfectly fine. Then again think on the Mk1, Toyota Aygo's had a 5 year warranty, us poor Peugeot 107 owners only got 3 years!, so Aygos had to last that little bit longer!

As Vandals mentions many of the faults/issues were common to Mk1s but common faults on the Mk1 like water leaks, dodgy instrument panels/switches, leecy steering I not really heard of about the Mk2. As mentioned about X-shift auto, both of ours are manual cars, but due to it's specifics best if you are using Toyota servicing and with it's relax warranty you should be ok.  Depends what you are after, but both ours have been very reliable cars and cheap to run and maintain, compared to other cars I had in the past, they been no worse than some, our British Leyland Mini still holds the family record for the most unreliable rotten to the core car we ever owned, happy to report both our Mk1 and Mk2 have easily beaten it without needing any mechanical or bodywork/rust sorting.

 

[haelewyn]

To me it looks like jumbojake is asking us for reasons to not buy the aygo. 

The corolla 2004 - 2007 is a great car but you are going to find people who were not satisfied and paid too much on repairs. Maybe they were the kind who did almost no maintenance and got the car to 200.000 miles.

There are not many cars to be found that are more reliable than the aygo mark II. 

Truth is that the aygo is often number one and always high in rankings for reliability of small cars.

If you feel more comfortable buying a Lexus,  that is fine.  But then there is no way to compare any more.