PHEV: MPG with depleated battery?

[Nicolai]

What MPG can one expect with empty Battery and 70 and 75 mph on the motorway with climate 22 degrees. Summer and winter?

And 55 mph on A roads? again, summer and winter?

Gentle driving.

And how long will it take for MPG to improve (break-in)?

[philip42h]

The majority of RAV4.5 are HEV rather than PHEV - and a HEV isn't that much different from a PHEV with a 'depleted' Battery - the Battery will (should) never be empty.

The HEV will return WLTP figures of around 47 mpg. That provides a realistic average figure. Actual per trip figures can realistically be between half that and 50% more.

I didn't note any significant change over the first few thousand miles ...

[ColinB]

My HEV has averaged 46.6mpg over the time I've had it, mostly local journeys. On holiday in Herefordshire with mainly quiet roads it easily did 50-60mpg or more, driving reasonably gently. 

[robo1]

The PHEV weighs 340kg to 200kg more ( depending on model)  than the HEV. I would think the depleted PHEV mpg would be slightly lower due to carrying the extra weight.

[Nicolai]

47 minutes ago, philip42h said:

The majority of RAV4.5 are HEV rather than PHEV - and a HEV isn't that much different from a PHEV with a 'depleted' battery - the battery will (should) never be empty.

The HEV will return WLTP figures of around 47 mpg. That provides a realistic average figure. Actual per trip figures can realistically be between half that and 50% more.

I didn't note any significant change over the first few thousand miles ...

 I know the Battery isn't completely empty. I meant "as empty as can be".

[TonyHSD]

Good question and the answers given actually represent the beauty of the Toyota hybrids.
Most other phev will be horrible once the tractor Battery is low while Toyota hybrids with their unique drivetrain simply convert to hev and continue to deliver unrivalled performance and fuel consumption., it’s like you are driving a standard hev with one more person with you, that’s the difference between rav4 hev and rav4 phev with low traction Battery in terms of fuel consumption. 

[ernieb]

So  much depends on not just the speed, but also topography, temperature, wind, car loading, etc. I get a significant difference between summer.winter doing the same run with similar loading. 
I have calculated the HEV mode range after the traction Battery user capacity is depleted and in summer it can be high 50’s and winter, high 40’s/low 50’s.  Whatever it is in reality it’s significantly better than other pure ICE cars I’ve owned and on a par with the diesels.

I just enjoy the driving experience. Remember if you’ve done a trip in EV then HEV mode you can always see how well the Toyota system manages the car by looking at the map in the MyT app, it will highlight every time the car switches to EV mode. I’m always impressed.

[Flatcoat]

Agree with much of what Ernie writes. Beyond generalising it is impossible to forecast what your mpg will be. What I can say is my mpg is as good and better than any large modern turbo diesel car I have had in recent years. I have to go back to my Citroen BX non turbo diesel and Passat non turbo diesels from the 80’s to match or better the economy. However both were much lighter and not saddled with lots of economy sapping exhaust emission tech. 

[Mike2222]

I also concur that it will massively vary, but it may be helpful to highlight the absolute worst case I have ever seen from the example setting/journey-type you are describing is 33mpg. This was with a fully loaded car and roof box [which alone would significantly increase drag], for 110miles across almost entirely Irish motorway, which has predominantly a speedlimit of 120kph (approx 74.5mph), and I would have been doing that or slightly over (at most 78mph).

 

For a packed to the gills petrol suv, I thought that was very impressive, but I certainly could have driven a more responsible speed and seen much better results (was driving overnight thru the wee hours to start a family holiday and the roads were completely empty). Perhaps a more representative example of worst case scenario is from the north Wales segment of the same holiday - same 'to the gills' + roof box, and for 75 miles on mostly dual carriageway or motorway roads, my wife returned 40mpg.

 

As others have mentioned, in a more run of the mill journey with a depleted traction Battery, I have seen high 50s mpg figures. 

[Mike2222]

Just a minor correction - the 33mpg journey was 145miles of motorway or thereabouts driving. 

 

And for balance, the return journey (we used the same service stations for stops, but a marginally different destination so was 138 miles) was 36mpg. Return journey was done in daytime, so perhaps difference down to prevailing winds/elevation/few degrees of temps difference, but holiday was july/August this year, so temps would have been mid teens to low 20s

[Nicolai]

I watched a YouTube video from a Norwegian. He said that with "empty batteries" and a 60 MPH, the RAV PHEV still returned 56 mpg.

I test drove it this Saturday with 20 degrees outside and 21 on the climate. The car indicated 56 mpg at the end. However, this included 24 miles in EV....

I was quite disappointed, honestly....

[ernieb]

How heavy the RH foot is will make a big difference, the RAV4P is a big lump. Anticipating braking to maximise the braking regeneration rather than pushing through to the disc pads will also impact results.

This is not a comment of your driving style, how would I know, but just an observation on 2 years plus of ownership. I came from  pure ICE and noticed very quickly the impact driving style has on ICE mpg.

[Nicolai]

29 minutes ago, ernieb said:

How heavy the RH foot is will make a big difference, the RAV4P is a big lump. Anticipating braking to maximise the braking regeneration rather than pushing through to the disc pads will also impact results.

This is not a comment of your driving style, how would I know, but just an observation on 2 years plus of ownership. I came from  pure ICE and noticed very quickly the impact driving style has on ICE mpg.

It's great to hear that you have learned the secrets of the hybrid system.

I have been driving an Auris Hybrid for 10 years myself and am very familiar with "easy right foot", regen via the brakes and anticipation of traffic.

With my my current tank of fuel, I get an indicated average of 65 mpg (half a tank left). 🙂

[SUPERIOR MUDFLAP]

3 hours ago, Nicolai said:

I test drove it this Saturday with 20 degrees outside and 21 on the climate. The car indicated 56 mpg at the end. However, this included 24 miles in EV....

You'll get a lot of EV miles even with an "empty" Battery. Just like on non-plugin Toyota HEVs.

[ernieb]

3 hours ago, Nicolai said:

It's great to hear that you have learned the secrets of the hybrid system.

I have been driving an Auris Hybrid for 10 years myself and am very familiar with "easy right foot", regen via the brakes and anticipation of traffic.

With my my current tank of fuel, I get an indicated average of 65 mpg (half a tank left). 🙂

But your car is not carting around a massive 18.1Kw Battery as well as a bigger 2.5ltr ICE. The cars are not physically similar and it seems unfair to make direct comparisons between the two models. The point I was making is that the regeneration can and is potentially a lot more than your current car. 

The RAV4.5 HEV probably gets better mpg because so maybe look at that model.

I do much of my driving locally and therefor the EV mode range is usually more than enough.

[Nicolai]

18 minutes ago, ernieb said:

But your car is not carting around a massive 18.1Kw battery as well as a bigger 2.5ltr ICE. The cars are not physically similar and it seems unfair to make direct comparisons between the two models. The point I was making is that the regeneration can and is potentially a lot more than your current car. 

The RAV4.5 HEV probably gets better mpg because so maybe look at that model.

I do much of my driving locally and therefor the EV mode range is usually more than enough.

I know the RAV4 PHEV is a lot heavier and more powerful. On the other hand, my Auris is 10 years old 😉

Like you, I will be doing most of my driving locally (60 miles a week in total to and from work). Once every other week, I go a total of 140 miles (70 miles out, 70 miles back) to visit my parents. But other than that that the engine would only be required for holiday trips and such. As such, the PHEV is the better choice compared to HEV.

I'm puzzled by what happened during my test drive: I reset /updated the "Trip Info" going back to see what the car would do in total with 24 miles of EV left on the Battery and HEV driving from there.

When I arrived back at the dealer, the infotainment screen indicated a trip value of 65 mpg (I take it, the EV miles helped bump the average). But the dashboard computer said: trip average 56 mpg...

[ernieb]

You’d really need to see the data collected and displayed in the MyT app.  The accuracy of the EV range remaining tends to be none linear in my experience as it gets lower and very sensitive to speed/topography etc. The MyT app shows the total trip time and distance in EV mode.  The EV distance is a combination of the initial charge and recovered charge in the traction Battery. The app also displays a map showing when the car has switched to EV mode, I’m always surprised at how often the car does this.

My car is currently showing 3.4miles/kW, this is the average of well over 12 months. 

I’ve just done a quick calculation from the MyT data over the last 12 months, which shows 74% of the distance is in EV mode and for the HEV mode miles I’m returning 46.22mpg. 

 

[robo1]

For comparison my HEV over the last year shows an EV time of 52% and and 49.6 mpg ( normal driving mode and air con on all the time) Presumably the difference in mpg is due to the heavier weight of the PHEV.

[ernieb]

@robo1, very likely.  Whilst it’s meaningless the app suggests that my overall mpg is 165mpg.  All that EV range from the overnight charging. 

[Nicolai]

12 hours ago, ernieb said:

@robo1, very likely.  Whilst it’s meaningless the app suggests that my overall mpg is 165mpg.  All that EV range from the overnight charging. 

Loosely calculated, I figure my overall MPG will be similar to yours.

[Nicolai]

14 hours ago, ernieb said:

You’d really need to see the data collected and displayed in the MyT app.  The accuracy of the EV range remaining tends to be none linear in my experience as it gets lower and very sensitive to speed/topography etc.
 

Yeah, I guess that would be more accurate. I wasn't able to setup MyT for a test drive though.

[ernieb]

1 hour ago, Nicolai said:

Yeah, I guess that would be more accurate. I wasn't able to setup MyT for a test drive though.

No, the car needs to be registered to you etc.

this is a section of the map displayed in the MyT app. The blue line is EV mode the rest HEV. You can see when the traction Battery runs out (around 30% left for HEV mode). The other blue sections are when the car is switching to HEV mode. (Travelling south)

 

[philip42h]

2 minutes ago, ernieb said:

No, the car needs to be registered to you etc.

this is a section of the map displayed in the MyT app. The blue line is EV mode the rest HEV. You can see when the traction battery runs out (around 30% left for HEV mode). The other blue sections are when the car is switching to HEV mode. (Travelling south)

Being picky and pedantic - 😉 - the blue sections show where the ICE is switched 'off'; the grey sections show where the ICE is running.

The track for a HEV would look very similar to the section south of Leicester - we just miss out on the 'long blue line'.

[robo1]

But according to the app the blue line is EV mode. As you say in reality it’s when the IC is off. A lot of EV mode is when you are “coasting” down hill. 

[ernieb]

Rightly or wrongly I've always assumed that the PHEV has the potential to recover more energy than the smaller capacity batteries in the HEV model?  Some hills I go down I generate 4 miles or more of regenerated energy.

I think we all agreed that Toyota seem to have got it just about right in comparison to similar cars.