"Engine Out" Timing Chain Job on BMW engine Toyota's

[Guest]

Been looking into the timing chain job on these 1WW / 2WW engines.  I can't find much on the Toyota applications but in BMWs, the engines appear to be mounted long-ways.  That's what seems to make it an engine out job, right? 

In a Toyota, the side between the gearbox / engine interface is where the chain lives, so surely it's a matter of dropping the gearbox (under the car jacked up - slightly = to get enough clearance in to the side of the engine block to access the chain (various chains?).  Is there any reason this would not be possible?  

I'm yet to get a dealer price but I would definitely consider a weekend DIY job in the next 1.5-2 years when I approach 100k to do this. If it's done every 7 years that's a fair enough preventative job for racking up high mileage. 

Has anybody here did this, or had any insight to this job from working on their Avensis (or other modern Toyota's with the same engine?) 

[avensis_2018]

why ? why you want to play with something you should never touch, its better to put money on tyres, steering wheel rubber parts under the car and good polish wax nano treatment, change the car junk Speakers and add some more... add dynamat for quite driving out\in noises... and more diy stuff ....  just take this  timing chain out of your head (i know its hard but... ) 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, avensis_2018 said:

why ? why you want to play with something you should never touch, its better to put money on tyres, steering wheel rubber parts under the car and good polish wax nano treatment, change the car junk speakers and add some more... add dynamat for quite driving out\in noises... and more diy stuff ....  just take this  timing chain out of your head (i know its hard but... ) 

It can't be ignored. These can wear out, and in older cars with the same engine - they have worn out relatively early, and when ignored, had catastrophic results. Toyota has changed things, but it is not clear to anybody what is the same and what has changed. All I know is my engine block number still starts 'N47', so it is safer to assume more the same than not. 

For the record though, as of January I've 4x new Michelin Primacy tyres on it, I apply silicone grease to the rubber components once a year to keep them from perishing.  Planning next summer to do an insulation job. Maybe the Speakers at some point, but it's hard to find ones that will fit without butchering the door card and looking ugly.  

The chain is to make the car last longer. A tough weekend replacing it, and then the everlasting sense of satisfaction I was able to do it, then the peace of mind for the next up to 7 years of it running well - maybe in to the 200,000 plus territory, living up to its reputation of being a Toyota despite the BMW engine, would be so, so worthwhile to me. 

That's why I'd love to get a discussion going on this and learn everything there is to know, and know what others think / thought if they had done the job before. 

I last did a timing belt job and water pump on a Fiat Panda 8v 1.2 in 2016... Plenty of space around that little engine, I have a feeling it won't be so simple with this. But nevertheless, it must be done at some stage. 

[avensis_2018]

fiat its not toyota,

you should never touch this chain in toyota cars.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, avensis_2018 said:

fiat its not toyota,

you should never touch this chain in toyota cars.

interestingly, this Toyota is not a Toyota. It’s a BMW, as far as the engine is concerned ~ mechanical wear.  Position and access is a Toyota specific aspect though 

[2009joe]

i got a new set of tyres for my car a couple of weeks ago my last tyres i got were Mitchell ones but my tyre place i got them the last time dont have them they have to order them in if i want them so he put on a set of pirelli's on the car im not sure what those tyres be like compared to my Mitchell 

[TonyHSD]

This chain in bmw engine in bmw cars perhaps every 150k miles. Not sure in Toyota cars is the same. Best to ask the dealer and see what they will say. Usually Toyota cars chains are lifetime or if stretched and engine light is on., otherwise just keep driving and service regularly. Less you do unnecessary work longer the car will live. 👍

[clarke4104]

Just for info my 2016 1.6 diesel Avensis ( BMW engine ) was scrapped off just a few weeks ago as the chain either broke or jumped the sprocket causing major damage. It had done 198,000 miles and was serviced from new every 10,000 miles with genuine dealer parts and oil. Any time I raised the topic of the chain ( at 100k and again at 150k ) the response was “ no need to touch it unless it becomes noisy or rattles” well I got no such noises or forewarning, just went out to start it and the sound was like a bag of spanners being shaken about.

[APS]

All timing chains stretch over time and will need replacing at some point. Toyota is not immune to the laws of material physics but they size them to last longer. The more common problem with some engines, like in the case of BMW is that the resin chain guides, meant to keep the chain taught, can disintegrate and allow the chain to jump and cause other collateral damage.

Chain replacement on the N47 does look like an engine out job. You even have to remove the flywheel and sump. Not just an evening job. 

[avensis_2018]

you can destroy the car just because this stupid thing in the had that got there, just leave it!

let's talk when you get to 300k miles.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

This chain in bmw engine in bmw cars perhaps every 150k miles. Not sure in Toyota cars is the same. Best to ask the dealer and see what they will say. Usually Toyota cars chains are lifetime or if stretched and engine light is on., otherwise just keep driving and service regularly. Less you do unnecessary work longer the car will live. 👍

150k seems alright, if the cost is quite high that would make it more tolerable. Could even save from now (76k) a bit every month to arrive at Toyotas price to replace it.   Some of the videos online of BMWs do show the really noticeable sound of it stretched before and after it’s replaced. But the next members experience sounds like the engine light / sound warning sadly didn’t happen then sudden failure 😞  

13 hours ago, clarke4104 said:

Just for info my 2016 1.6 diesel Avensis ( BMW engine ) was scrapped off just a few weeks ago as the chain either broke or jumped the sprocket causing major damage. It had done 198,000 miles and was serviced from new every 10,000 miles with genuine dealer parts and oil. Any time I raised the topic of the chain ( at 100k and again at 150k ) the response was “ no need to touch it unless it becomes noisy or rattles” well I got no such noises or forewarning, just went out to start it and the sound was like a bag of spanners being shaken about.

That’s exactly the kind of things I’ve been reading and wanting to prepare for / avoid. I’m glad you made it to 198k though.  I think I’ll have mine done at 100k.  If it’s a few grand, I’ll leave it til 150k but save up monthly for the colossal dealer cost perhaps. 
No warning though? ☹️  That’s it, I’m definitely re-doing mine. Not worth the chance. 

12 hours ago, APS said:

All timing chains stretch over time and will need replacing at some point. Toyota is not immune to the laws of material physics but they size them to last longer. The more common problem with some engines, like in the case of BMW is that the resin chain guides, meant to keep the chain taught, can disintegrate and allow the chain to jump and cause other collateral damage.

Chain replacement on the N47 does look like an engine out job. You even have to remove the flywheel and sump. Not just an evening job. 

I’d believe Toyota and trust leaving it if it was the 1.8 petrol or a Toyota diesel.  I’ve seen those guides on the replacement kit photos.. I can imagine they don’t wear down well.  I saw some videos on BMW models, definitely there - but the engine was long ways.  With a big open space like the Avensis bonnet up, maybe it could be done just lowering the gearbox to the floor,  in a normal garage on axel stands?   I could imagine it taking quite a few evenings. If the Toyota price is over £1,000 I’d contemplate that though 

[TonyHSD]

Yeah, that’s the thing here, it’s not a Toyota engine and this is totally different. Best to read bmw owners forum and groups to see how they do it. 
This is a huge deal to me when buying cars.  
I like German cars , the interiors are well made, they are comfy, quiet, quick, but then the maintenance, the repairs and how they are designed and made is against the mechanics, physics, and any technical sense. Simply made on purpose that way. 
These cars also ultra pollutants, not only by exhaust emissions, but with their service too.  
Do you know that these cars needs tons of bolts, nuts, clips, filters, chains, belts, pulleys, bushes, washers, and more just for a regular maintenance with very short intervals?  Not to mention the different fluids, the add blue into the fuel, the cats, doc, gpf, egr, manifold, water manifold for cooling the engine, replacing a condenser and dryer along with the gas as part of the regular ac regas?! 🫢🫤 This is beyond stupidity. 
Thankfully, you have only the engine from the BMW’s, perhaps good to know of the gearbox is bmw too and research about oil changes etc. 👍

[Guest]

6 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Yeah, that’s the thing here, it’s not a Toyota engine and this is totally different. Best to read bmw owners forum and groups to see how they do it. 
This is a huge deal to me when buying cars.  
I like German cars , the interiors are well made, they are comfy, quiet, quick, but then the maintenance, the repairs and how they are designed and made is against the mechanics, physics, and any technical sense. Simply made on purpose that way. 
These cars also ultra pollutants, not only by exhaust emissions, but with their service too.  
Do you know that these cars needs tons of bolts, nuts, clips, filters, chains, belts, pulleys, bushes, washers, and more just for a regular maintenance with very short intervals?  Not to mention the different fluids, the add blue into the fuel, the cats, doc, gpf, egr, manifold, water manifold for cooling the engine, replacing a condenser and dryer along with the gas as part of the regular ac regas?! 🫢🫤 This is beyond stupidity. 
Thankfully, you have only the engine from the BMW’s, perhaps good to know of the gearbox is bmw too and research about oil changes etc. 👍

I know. Never been a fan of German cars. Back when I started learning about cars from my uncle around 2015 onwards, I had a very basic family hand-me-down Fiat Panda. He had an early 2000s VW Bora. I’d always want to see how jobs went on his car too. All he ever said was how awkward they made things and then with the Fiat, how long it’d been since he last saw a car with the level of simplicity / basic engineering. The Fiat was surprisingly good! The Bora not so much although he made it to well over 230k miles in it. Though that was an aged relatively basic one compared to even modern VWs now.   They also had a new Yaris at the time, 2013. Until written off in 2020, they only ever had to put brakes, service items and oil on that car. It had a bit of DPF issues in the warranty period where the dealer essentially was waiting for Toyota to come out with a fix but other than that, it was an excellent car. They replaced it last year with a 2020 Corolla GR Sport.  He now has a Mazda 6 2.2 tourer / auto.  Japanese is very much the way. That’s why I bought a Toyota too.  And in fairness, they’ve looked after me warranty wise. 
 

I had a very, very, VERY positive time with the nearly new CLA 220. I had various women actually approach me to tell me they liked the car.  It was the first time THAT happened I understood why people loved the things too much.  It was superb. Everything I did in it, even putting on the headlights, had an initial information screen with amazing graphics / animations of the car, saying how it had a motorway beam mode etc and all these others!  It turned down the heated seats as well on its own. and those interior lights, those beautiful impressive party trick interior lights! Where I got the inspiration and motivation to do mine.  BUT. I remember around the time Scotty Kilmer put up a video of one of his customers with a Made in the USA Mercedes SUV that was 12 months old.  I was surprised it had the same interior just bigger. And the fancy lights.  He plugged in his scan tool, he had multiple errors from the computer that controlled the lights / colour blend. And that dealer had told his customer that they couldn’t source parts from Germany due to the chip shortage at the time.  It was an amazing car but I certainly wouldn’t want to own one.  
 

Right now I could stretch myself and get a brand new A-Class. Or a used few year old one with all those features. But at the end of the day, even two months in it got a bit boring everyday. It brought out all the wrong parts of one’s personality. Ego. Feeling better than people. Superior nearly. And people looked at you, rarely positively. Probably either thinking I was some spoilt brat or had rich parents tbh.. or jealousy but then again it wasn’t my car. I never let anybody think that. Within 2 mins of them completing it or asking me about it I told them.   
 

I bet they’re a **** to maintain! I couldn’t afford to maintain it how I do my Toyota. With the genuine parts and according to the book. Therefore.. I couldn’t own it. It wouldn’t sit right with me. I know a lot of people now my age with GTI Golfs, Mercs and fast BMWs. Not one of them sticks to 12 month servicing. Most have dirt cheap huge alloys. Cheap no name tyres. Driving with the brake / coolant reminders on everyday.  Things disgusting inside and dirty outside. No pride in them. Fair enough, they work hard, it’s their money. But I couldn’t own a car like that. Even when i had my little ‘05 Panda and I’d park it everyday the rain pattern and the shine off it (bartered as it was) was my pride in it. And knowing it was kept well mechanically sound.   Same with my Toyota. Not that anybody would know or care but I just have this weird satisfaction that it’s kept ‘well oiled’ and if someone was to think twice, it would I be quite clear that it’s kept clean and is cared about. 
 

I’ve thought about getting rid of it. Even for a new Fiat Panda before they go out of production (safety / low occupant scores is what’s stopping me frankly). Or for a CT200 / Corolla to run from the BMW engine. Before it’s too late.  But when I come around, this is a fairly nice car to live with, and maybe - just maybe - with the right servicing, timing chain included, it will last for years and into the 200k miles. The satisfaction in that would be immense. The nice Corolla’s are going to keep rolling off the production line. So even if I keep my Avensis another 10 years, there’ll be a wealth of nice used and new ones at least until 2035. Even if I go all out in 2035 on a new one to keep me motoring until 2050! After that I’ll happily move to an EV on the motability scheme 😉 

 

back on topic, apologies, how did you find out it had a BMW gearbox too? I’d love to read into all of that detail if I could find it. I always try to get as much as I can from the dealer / service guy but I’m not sure how much they would know either beyond what they need to know in terms of just sourcing parts from the system or following procedures on whatever is booked into the workshop? 

[2009joe]

11 hours ago, SB1500 said:

150k seems alright, if the cost is quite high that would make it more tolerable. Could even save from now (76k) a bit every month to arrive at Toyotas price to replace it.   Some of the videos online of BMWs do show the really noticeable sound of it stretched before and after it’s replaced. But the next members experience sounds like the engine light / sound warning sadly didn’t happen then sudden failure 😞  

That’s exactly the kind of things I’ve been reading and wanting to prepare for / avoid. I’m glad you made it to 198k though.  I think I’ll have mine done at 100k.  If it’s a few grand, I’ll leave it til 150k but save up monthly for the colossal dealer cost perhaps. 
No warning though? ☹️  That’s it, I’m definitely re-doing mine. Not worth the chance. 

I’d believe Toyota and trust leaving it if it was the 1.8 petrol or a Toyota diesel.  I’ve seen those guides on the replacement kit photos.. I can imagine they don’t wear down well.  I saw some videos on BMW models, definitely there - but the engine was long ways.  With a big open space like the Avensis bonnet up, maybe it could be done just lowering the gearbox to the floor,  in a normal garage on axel stands?   I could imagine it taking quite a few evenings. If the Toyota price is over £1,000 I’d contemplate that though 

I think on safe side to when my 2014 2.0d4d 1adftv engine Toyota one I will get the timing chain changed also for a genuine Toyota one as tbh well if all Toyota chains streach I must do mine also but my car has only passed 57k now 

[APS]

On 10/7/2023 at 12:22 PM, SB1500 said:

I’d believe Toyota and trust leaving it if it was the 1.8 petrol or a Toyota diesel.  I’ve seen those guides on the replacement kit photos.. I can imagine they don’t wear down well.  I saw some videos on BMW models, definitely there - but the engine was long ways.  With a big open space like the Avensis bonnet up, maybe it could be done just lowering the gearbox to the floor,  in a normal garage on axel stands?   I could imagine it taking quite a few evenings. If the Toyota price is over £1,000 I’d contemplate that though 

Right, that's the thing. You don't really want to find out the hard way if the chain lasts or not. If you have access to an engine hoist and somewhere to work, I'd take it out. You can never have too much space and you really want to do this job right. Tight spaces to work in often result in having to take shortcuts and not always do everything as near perfect as you can. Often you end up damaging or breaking things.

Perhaps worth also getting a quote from/discussing with some independent garage with plenty of experience of BMWs.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, APS said:

Right, that's the thing. You don't really want to find out the hard way if the chain lasts or not. If you have access to an engine hoist and somewhere to work, I'd take it out. You can never have too much space and you really want to do this job right. Tight spaces to work in often result in having to take shortcuts and not always do everything as near perfect as you can. Often you end up damaging or breaking things.

Perhaps worth also getting a quote from/discussing with some independent garage with plenty of experience of BMWs.

If it costs more than £1,000 from Toyota there's a good chance I'll be doing the homework , hiring or investing in the right kit (like a hoist) and having a go at it myself.  I'd say once it's out, it's going to be straightforward enough.  As you say, tight spaces and not doing it in ideal circumstances would make it very tight, difficult and rife for corner cutting.  I wonder how hard it is to disconnect everything for removal of the engine. 

I'm going to acquire the complete work shop manual for the car over the coming weeks. 

Our view usually is... if it can be put together by someone at the factory, and worked at by a mechanic, then it can be worked at by us. Other than tight access or lack of an overhead lift that they have, we can manage usually.  And although it's not easy to service, it's still very much service-able.

So engine out... and it's probably easy to lock the engine up. Slide off the tensioners / hold back things and swap out the chains... Right?  Usually these parts of the engine are heavy metal and precision cut and usually play nicely since they're so protected and lack corrosion or much damage (all being well) 

[Cyker]

It would be an expensive job as it's very invasive and will take a lot of time to do - I suspect it's an engine out job so all the fluids need to be drained and everything disconnected etc.; It's do-able, but definitely not something for the inexperienced DIY'er.

If I attempted it the car would probably explode when I tried to start it!   

 

[avetoy]

19 hours ago, APS said:

Tight spaces to work in often result in having to take shortcuts and not always do everything as near perfect as you can.

I completely agree!

14 hours ago, SB1500 said:

if it can be put together by someone at the factory, and worked at by a mechanic, then it can be worked at by us.

That is the right attitude! If you have a good place (car lifter needed) and some tools, go for it!

[Guest]

So, the dealer is going to get back to me on Monday. I asked for a quote for that timing chain replacement. He had confirmed that nobody to date has ever had a 1WW / 2WW timing job done at the dealership. He reckons it'll be multiple-thousands.  Said it was a 16 hour job. 16x£90 is £1,440, assuming the chain(s) themselves aren't more than £2-300, a total of under £1800, call me crazy, but I'd pay that.  If it's over 2k then I'll need to reconsider, but I have to wonder how much the chain itself could cost.. surely not that much.  

I will post the update. Of course, I'll be calling around other dealerships and saying nothing to see what they quote! 

 

[TonyHSD]

9 minutes ago, SB1500 said:

So, the dealer is going to get back to me on Monday. I asked for a quote for that timing chain replacement. He had confirmed that nobody to date has ever had a 1WW / 2WW timing job done at the dealership. He reckons it'll be multiple-thousands.  Said it was a 16 hour job. 16x£90 is £1,440, assuming the chain(s) themselves aren't more than £2-300, a total of under £1800, call me crazy, but I'd pay that.  If it's over 2k then I'll need to reconsider, but I have to wonder how much the chain itself could cost.. surely not that much.  

I will post the update. Of course, I'll be calling around other dealerships and saying nothing to see what they quote! 

 

That’s about right. 2-3k money worth job and on older bmw cars many drivers choose to keep driving until chain breaks and break the engine or simply sell and move on. If Toyota technician never worked on this engine I will stay clear and probably seek help from a bmw specialist, someone who knows what he is doing. 

[avensis_2018]

People do crazy things when they boring.

Why buying toyota, Next time buy renult or citroen, then youll have something to fix all the time=never be boring again.

Good luck.

[2009joe]

3 hours ago, avensis_2018 said:

People do crazy things when they boring.

Why buying toyota, Next time buy renult or citroen, then youll have something to fix all the time=never be boring again.

Good luck.

Well let's just hope I don't have to fix mine I have already changed the gearbox oil in it and whatever is with Toyota 2014 tin and paint my one is starting to show rust chips 😞 compared to my last VW group car . Plus the metal wheel fell off my AC compressor. Not sure why I had to get that put on this time with lock tight stuff on the threads . Another thing I'd be !Removed! myself about is this stupid push button handbrake and the dpf in my car . I do go on long runs some times but my work is 5 min away from my house . Yet another thing everyone says when doing long runs to clean out the dpf u supposed 2 rev the head off the car well I'm not like that when I drive I'm up threw the gears and car driving along about over 1k revs in 6th no heavy stupid reving the **** out of the engine 

[Guest]

I can confirm the 1WW engine Avensis has the Toyota EA65 manual gearbox. 
 

https://www.proxyparts.com/car-parts-stock/information/gearbox-code/ea65/part/gearbox/partid/16081286/

[avetoy]

19 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

...on older bmw cars many drivers choose to keep driving until chain breaks and break the engine...

Would this be an option? While waiting the breaking, you could buy an engine from a  srab yard and do the chain work to it. Then just swap the engine, if needed. If not, you can always sell the fixed engine...

I quess it is less than 2-3k money worth job?

[Guest]

Still waiting for the quote… might need to contact them again for it. 
 

My uncle is convincing me that with the oil changes I’m doing it should be fine. And that also, I am likely to not own the car at that age or mileage.  And even if I do, the likes of around 200k miles (or approaching 10+ or 15 or so years) - if it did break, I’d be in a position to buy a new car without having to be too devastated or out of pocket over this one, or wanting to fix it or put in a new engine etc.