"Engine Out" Timing Chain Job on BMW engine Toyota's

[Cessna]

FWIW I agree with your uncle.

[TonyHSD]

And if you take it easy when driving  this will also help. Some German cars aren’t as bad as we all know but their owners/ drivers are to blame for everything. The way these cars get used , acceleration, braking, speeding etc is beyond imagination, it’s like on rally competition. So the maintenance will be as such, one day drive two days work on 👍

[APS]

23 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

The way these cars get used , acceleration, braking, speeding etc is beyond imagination, it’s like on rally competition. So the maintenance will be as such, one day drive two days work on 👍

The Germans are generally very quiet and effortless. People just don't appreciate or notice the speeds they're doing. Our 330d is a good example - you just waft along at 70 mph at less than 2000rpm with 500+Nm on tap. It's all very effortless. But yes, needs to be maintained like anything else. 

 

@SB1500 - before you fork out for a replacement, I think it's worth researching more on BMW forums and checking with knowledgeable BMW mechanics. I'd just be very wary of letting a Toyota garage do it. Bit of hit and miss as to whether you get a good technician working on your car. There is some wisdom in your uncle's words...

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

And if you take it easy when driving  this will also help. Some German cars aren’t as bad as we all know but their owners/ drivers are to blame for everything. The way these cars get used , acceleration, braking, speeding etc is beyond imagination, it’s like on rally competition. So the maintenance will be as such, one day drive two days work on 👍

That's true. Of all my friends with some of the nicer ones, not one has a decent reputable set of tyres fitted. Half with over sized big alloys from cheap makes as well, I don't think they are even aware that on those cars, the ECU needs to be told about the change of wheel size..    Fingers crossed this isn't an over engineered one.. 

 

20 minutes ago, APS said:

The Germans are generally very quiet and effortless. People just don't appreciate or notice the speeds they're doing. Our 330d is a good example - you just waft along at 70 mph at less than 2000rpm with 500+Nm on tap. It's all very effortless. But yes, needs to be maintained like anything else. 

In fairness, the 1WW engine is fairly smooth as far as I can tell. I wonder that the bigger 2WW variant is like. Cabin insulation lets the Avensis down big time though. I wonder how much impact pulling off the headliner, carpet and door panels off and adding a layer of thin insulation to it.. Maybe adding some silicone seal around the front quarter windows too.

20 minutes ago, APS said:

@SB1500 - before you fork out for a replacement, I think it's worth researching more on BMW forums and checking with knowledgeable BMW mechanics. I'd just be very wary of letting a Toyota garage do it. Bit of hit and miss as to whether you get a good technician working on your car. There is some wisdom in your uncle's words...

I'd be hesitant with mechanics in NI, the only reason I'll get the fluids changed with Toyota is for a relatively low cost, they can do it without me needing to worry about bleeding, or disposal / messy tricky old job for the brakes. And they use the proper Toyota fluids (always confirm this with them).  Tyres, well, can't change them at home without equipment, and you can watch them do it.  Other than that, only warranty work with the dealer.   I'd go with a dealership for that, only because of the support from Toyota if the dealership refuses to answer my calls etc.  Basically a second go-to and easier to get action taken against them versus a small independent mechanic, who (not even joking, in my area) can even get a group of lads to put your windows in. Big body shop here was notorious for that.. somehow is the go-to for insurers today.  I've had so many bad experiences.   

been with friends of said German cars as well, going to specialists here to get their cars remapped and I know from the way the guys talking that he knows absolutely nothing about what he's doing, other than downloading someone else's map, loading it on etc.  I just don't know if I'd trust them at all. too many bad experiences and attitudes out there, I know it's bad to tar them all with the same brush but going on 9 years now and I have to admit, very very few positive experiences.  Even the dealership needs kept in line with Toyota from time to time - but at least they're made to do the right thing in the end. 

Other option would be BMW dealership, I'll give them a call, but I suspect they might be a bit more 'we only work on BMW' compared to a Toyota garage which might genuinely do work on any car, at a cost.  Perhaps BMW wouldn't be able to source the parts on its system, even if technically they fit with how the system works for them. And their cost won't be lower (I'd be very surprised). Difference is maybe they have done the 4k job on someone's 45k BMW where it makes more sense, idk.   

At least of Toyota's dealership screws it up, they will either be forced by Toyota to be out of pocket to replace the engine altogether... or give me a killer deal on a new or nearly new Toyota? 

[APS]

1 hour ago, SB1500 said:

I'd be hesitant with mechanics in NI, the only reason I'll get the fluids changed with Toyota is for a relatively low cost, they can do it without me needing to worry about bleeding, or disposal / messy tricky old job for the brakes. And they use the proper Toyota fluids (always confirm this with them).

For sure - fully agree. Might as well get them to do it. Particularly brake fluid - if they do it properly - they have the kit to flush it through (including the ABS). 

1 hour ago, SB1500 said:

Big body shop here was notorious for that.. somehow is the go-to for insurers today.  I've had so many bad experiences.

I did not appreciate your local 'scene'. I see how it certainly makes more sense getting a franchise to do the work. 

1 hour ago, SB1500 said:

Cabin insulation lets the Avensis down big time though. I wonder how much impact pulling off the headliner, carpet and door panels off and adding a layer of thin insulation to it.. Maybe adding some silicone seal around the front quarter windows too.

In my experience, it makes less of a difference than I expected. But if you have the time, it's worth a shot. Nowadays I'm way too lazy and would just get a different, quieter car. You could get an old Lexus. They are made more quietly from the ground up. Seriously, they're a bit different 🙂

1 hour ago, SB1500 said:

Other option would be BMW dealership, I'll give them a call, but I suspect they might be a bit more 'we only work on BMW' compared to a Toyota garage which might genuinely do work on any car, at a cost.

I can see how you'd end up between a rock and a hard place. Like one foot on the jetty, the other in a boat, slowly drifting away. You are absolutely right though, fork out the cash for Toyota to do the job and you should have some kind of peace of mind - you'd think. 🤔 💭 

 

[TonyHSD]

Then if you use bmw dealer and if anything goes wrong afterwards they may refuse help or warranty claim because the car is Toyota, you are right then to use Toyota dealer instead and let them carry the necessary work, if anything goes wrong after, they can put a new engine. 👍

[Guest]

The prices are in…. Parts only £1,113 (then add VAT).  Full job, £2,570 (then add VAT). 
 

Needless to say, come 100, 150k miles… our Avensis models especially aren’t worth much more than double that. 
 

Still £65 a month… For four years. That would take me roughly up to 150k and a car that’s 9 nears old.  Even if I don’t feel the money (from such a long saving plan in advance).  The question then becomes… is it worthwhile?
 

Whilst it would alleviate the fear of the chain snapping or stretching leading to catastrophic, irreparable damage. The car will be 9 years old.  Certainly ‘old’ and certainly worth ‘next to nothing’.  I noticed that diesel, mid spec Avensis models were never worth much used. Costing less than an equivalent petrol or even same engine WW diesel Auris models which technically are a lower position model.  I suspect this will continue well into the older age years. 
 

The chances of something else going wrong at 9+ years old, having gotten by then, 6 years from it. It might be wise to view all following years as a bonus. Even with the view to keep it until 15 years / 200k miles.
 

With the attitude that, should it snap at that age and the car destroy itself, I’ll have gotten a decent mileage / use from it. It will well have repaid back its cost to me personally. And wider, as a 15 year old 200k vehicle, to the planet as well in terms of lasting / serving and not just being throwaway or disposable having made it to that age / miles.  Perhaps this is the only reasonable attitude to take. 
 

People around me are telling me I’ll have a new car well before this one turns 10 anyway. Though to be honest, with the money I’ve put into it and will continue to put into it, I would like to see how far I can take it…  I think we have a long time until these cars start looking too dated or feeling too far behind (with the exception of the notoriously dreadful, hopeless Toyota Touch with Go 2 system - which I presume felt late to the party even in 2015). 
 

I’ll still look into the job itself. Might get a few more quotes from other dealers.. just in case this is what’s called “p** off pricing” for a job they might not want to risk.  
 

it’s more just, that sweet satisfaction of having had your car and engine taken apart to bits. Taking all the care to renew the chains, guides, maybe a clutch for good measure) and then when it’s all back together, knowing it was your own effort that enables it to continue working well into its later years. Maybe even racking up an insane mileage as a consequence!  But engine out and lack of height in the garage is what’s killing that off. Not the fear of getting in too deep. 

[Tif]

Hi, you could see videos of Minis with same engine. It can be done without taking the engine out (there are also videos of BMW with the engine). But you Will need the proper timing tools and some engine lifting support system. Definitely It won't be just a one weekend job.

I am planning on doing It when I have to do the cluch if It isn't noisy earlier.  

By the way, using teachstream or autocom you can see chain elongation but I don't know if it really works. Mine still shows 0,0%

[TonyHSD]

If the timing chain is between engine and transmission not possible any work without engine out. Also there are very specific tools and procedures, only bmw has those or independent bmw specialists. I am following a bmw specialist from another country, the man is ex bmw trained technician and owner of a motor sport team. He explains these things thoroughly and believe me, working on these bmw cars is no where near or similar to Toyota, the engines tech is completely different. Those bmw cars are only good to look them on pictures or on the road driven by others. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Those bmw cars are only good to look them on pictures or on the road driven by others.

I’ll honestly never buy one. My cousin has a beautiful 2018 420d, auto and everything. Nice car. But things like this stupid N47 engine that is essentially un-serviceable, to the point where even a dealership doesn’t want to touch it, is a pathetic design decision to me. Certainly not one of sound engineering.  Having had the experience of that decked out Merc as well, I don’t think I’d sleep at night with that to my name if I had to worry about maintaining it. No way.   We actually plugged in my other cousins A180 the other day due to an engine fault. Even that, a fairly basic, older model didn’t let you clear the codes. It simply ‘logged them’ to another part of The system and snitched on you to the dealer, recording things like mileage problem occurred at, number of starts. We certainly couldn’t clear it with an Autel and the Mercedes pack installed.  And there was also some rare codes that a google search knew nothing about somehow.. although I found Audi also used the code but for something totally different. Must be an entirely unique set of codes for their OEM stuff.   No good to me.  Perhaps fine for someone who doesn’t care, and can afford not to care by throwing it into a Merc dealer every time - arguably, maybe those are the only people who should own these cars - who can afford to do that and afford to not care.  Fair play to them.  
 

I used to / wanted to go back to Fiat after, but their recent merger with PSA Peugeot / Citroen means all of its future cars are going to share PSA platforms .. probably exclusively. And be forced into EV only strategy.  To me, that’s just not a real Fiat. And my DS3 was enough experience over what it entails to own these cars - just a tonne of silly, annoying little issues. Exterior, interior design and electrical.  
 

The future for me and cars is clear. Toyota. Or Lexus. Corolla Hybrid is the most versatile car, with a long term commitment to its drivetrain, gearbox, frankly every aspect. If it were today I’d go for that or a CT200h.  At this rate, if the WW engine lives up to its German heritage of complexity driven premature failure, despite my best efforts, then it looks like I might be in a position to perhaps replace it with a few year old used Lexus (Yaris Cross model) - as that’ll be the smallest ‘luxury’ class, reliable car. With a futuristic drivetrain. 
 

My lesson learnt here was how pointless it is to buy a Toyota without a Toyota engine. My cars destiny is probably to become a well maintained parts car, with good body and fittings for a reliable, 1.8 Valvematic Avensis from 2015 onwards, may its likely unfortunate demise allow those Toyota powered versions to roam the roads in true Japanese fashion.  
 

I’m curious though, all other modern Toyota engines seem to have chains. They’re said to be lifetime chains - but truly without much panic needed… Are those easy jobs to do? DIY.  Do dealers do these as an optional / major service option or, as with my quote, is it viewed as a specialist part engine rebuild job that shouldn’t be considered in the cars lifetime? 

[APS]

11 hours ago, SB1500 said:

Taking all the care to renew the chains, guides, maybe a clutch for good measure) and then when it’s all back together, knowing it was your own effort that enables it to continue working well into its later years.

That satisfaction is absolutely priceless. 
 

There is potentially another option. Run the engine as is for as long as it lasts. Depending on how far down the road you are by then, decide if you scrap the car or fit another second hand engine. 

[avensis_2018]

my friend had a new BMW after 1 year or so it's start with problems like fuel pump, water pump and some other stuff that he fixed with the warranty but still .... when the warranty finished after 3 years he sold this car.

toyota its the most reliable car and the avensis its the most of all toyota cars, the 1.8L of the avensis its the most successful & reliable engine that toyota ever made, and the gear its same gear in corolla/avensis and more, it's the best automatic gear of toyota, you can't find more reliable car then the 1.8L petrol avensis. think people knows that corolla consider the reliable car you can buy, avensis more reliable , also the avensis better than the corolla in every aspect ! 

it's a shame that toyota stop making the avensis.

try to remember that.

 

[Guest]

Few interesting points here…

”Use 5W-30 for 1WW/2WW” — NOT TGMO 5W-30 

so, not all grades are truly equal, even in Toyotas eyes. Not even its own same free alternative.  To the extent they published it in a supplement given out with all these cars with BMW engines.  Additives, additives, additives!!!  There must be something to it. 
 

also as a footnote, “always replace the filter when changing the oil” 

[avensis_2018]

if you change oil every 15000 miles then you need to change filter yes.

i change oil every 3000 miles, every half a year or so, the filter i change every 2 years (every 4 times of oil change).

4.5L 60$ 0w20 or 5w30 or half\half,  change with electric pump 5min, runs like new.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, avensis_2018 said:

if you change oil every 15000 miles then you need to change filter yes.

i change oil every 3000 miles, every half a year or so, the filter i change every 2 years (every 4 times of oil change).

4.5L 60$ 0w20 or 5w30 or half\half,  change with electric pump 5min, runs like new.

For all that a filter costs, you are wasting time and money in the form of oil, and arguably not even helping the car. You'd be better changing it every six months, with filter.  Two years / 12000 (from what you say above) is double the length of time any oil filter can last.  If you aren't using reputable branded or genuine ones, the filters themselves might only be fit for 3,000 (best case scenario)

[avensis_2018]

when the system is clean, with fresh oil every 3000k, the filter can last .... a lot more/you don't have to change the filter in every oil change. and also it depend on how you drive your car.

but, do what you think it's better for you, no one telling you not to do so.

enjoy.

[avensis_2018]

 

[skidlid]

20 hours ago, SB1500 said:

For all that a filter costs, you are wasting time and money in the form of oil, and arguably not even helping the car. You'd be better changing it every six months, with filter.  Two years / 12000 (from what you say above) is double the length of time any oil filter can last.  If you aren't using reputable branded or genuine ones, the filters themselves might only be fit for 3,000 (best case scenario)

Back in the 70's 3,000 mile oil changes were not uncommon, 6,000 was considered to be pushing it and 10,000 unheard of. My first car, a Ford Anglia needed a lube service every 1,000 miles with short service at 3,000 and a full service at 6,000. The handbook even detailed a de-coke etc which it needed every 30,000 miles.

But today to say 2 years/12000 miles is double what a filter can last is crazy. My BMW had an oil change every 12 months but the filter lasted 2 years with no issues. A week ago I changed the oil/filter in my classic, do it every 2 years. Use good quality oil (Total this time) and a Mahle filter. Will do it again in October 2025.

The quality of filters, oils and engines has moved on in those almost 50 years.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, skidlid said:

Back in the 70's 3,000 mile oil changes were not uncommon, 6,000 was considered to be pushing it and 10,000 unheard of. My first car, a Ford Anglia needed a lube service every 1,000 miles with short service at 3,000 and a full service at 6,000. The handbook even detailed a de-coke etc which it needed every 30,000 miles.

But today to say 2 years/12000 miles is double what a filter can last is crazy. My BMW had an oil change every 12 months but the filter lasted 2 years with no issues. A week ago I changed the oil/filter in my classic, do it every 2 years. Use good quality oil (Total this time) and a Mahle filter. Will do it again in October 2025.

The quality of filters, oils and engines has moved on in those almost 50 years.

The Car Care Nut (Toyota guy on YouTube) says that some of the cheap nasty filters for £4 a pop online with unheard of names or no name, can sometimes only last 3,000 miles or so.  Even though the OEM or quality ones as you mention can go 12,000.  All Toyota publications seem to echo to always change the filter with the oil.  
 

That 2017 Fiat Panda I owned had 20k intervals and up to two years which I thought was insane.  That can only be because of pressure to appear ‘more eco’ in my opinion.  
 

No doubt cars have come a long way. But I reckon the oil and filters still have their limits.  Why do we still need to do initial 1,000 mile oil changes at the first service? 
 

All I know is: oil and filter = cheap, engine repairs = expensive, engine replacement = out of the question for me 

[skidlid]

6 hours ago, SB1500 said:

Why do we still need to do initial 1,000 mile oil changes at the first service?

What makes still need a 1000 mile first service? My last was a 1980 Ford Escort.

As for believing YouTube, guess someone has too.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, skidlid said:

What makes still need a 1000 mile first service? My last was a 1980 Ford Escort.

It was my understanding that from the factory (first start etc) to the dealer handing over the car to the buyer, an oil / filter change was done.  Initial bedding in of the engine / excess metal filings etc coming loose and needing to be removed via the change.  Aren't new engines still subject to that? 

3 hours ago, skidlid said:

As for believing YouTube, guess someone has too.

One of them is a Toyota master technician, the other is a lifelong mechanic. Whilst Kilmer can be a bit off on some topics where it's more his opinion, the other guy AMD is usually spot on. 

Are you seriously advocating not changing the oil filter with every oil change? In todays world... where you can get a quality one for as little as £9...  What are you trying to save? Money?  It's terrible advice. 

12 months / 10k miles if you want the car to last. If not more frequently.   

[skidlid]

1 hour ago, SB1500 said:

It was my understanding that from the factory (first start etc) to the dealer handing over the car to the buyer, an oil / filter change was done.  Initial bedding in of the engine / excess metal filings etc coming loose and needing to be removed via the change.  Aren't new engines still subject to that?

That only applied when materials, lubricants and manufacturing tolerances were nowhere near as good as today. Not a single manufacturer requires a 1000 mile oil change today.

In the States where they still insist on using low quality mineral oil instead of the high quality synthetics we use in the civilised world oil changes are more frequent, suppose they will always act differently.

1 hour ago, SB1500 said:

Are you seriously advocating not changing the oil filter with every oil change? In todays world... where you can get a quality one for as little as £9...  What are you trying to save? Money?  It's terrible advice. 

12 months / 10k miles if you want the car to last. If not more frequently.   

I changed the oil between BMW services because I do not like 20,000 oil change intervals, its a long time. The filter was huge compared to the small ones used in the days of 3000 mile changes and well able to cope and since it was changed every 2 years and 16,000 miles it seems to say that it was done on schedule.

Its 16 years old now and the MOT history shows its still on the road.

[Tif]

The main problem in not changing the filter everytime is that once it is saturated the oil will go through the bypass valve and skip the filter. So  the engine would be running as It did't have filter at all (well only the pre-filter in the oil pump).

Last time oil cost me 46€ (5L needed 5,2) and last filter 13€...

[Stivino]

2 hours ago, SB1500 said:

Overnight no.  Over 12 months, yes

I don't think time would be the most important factor.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Stivino said:

I don't think time would be the most important factor.

It’s one of the key factors for sure. It breaks down over time. whether driving or sitting still. Presumably more driving. Temperature from day to night.  
 

Even if sitting still, the oil is constantly subject to temperature change and stagnation from sitting stationary. Just to a lesser extent.
 

the advice for cars that aren’t driven many miles per year or have been left for a long time is always to replace the oil and filter as well prior to re-starting is it not