Black box to reduce insurance cost

[ISL]

I have opted to use an insurance company with black box to reduce costs to teach my daughter to drive. She has only been driving for a couple of weeks and also having lessons with a qualified driving instructor.  Her driving is brilliant and doesn’t raise any red flags with the insurance whereas it appears that when I use the car I get red flags everywhere, mainly for braking and cornering but also acceleration. 😬
 

This is first time using black box but wondering if anyone else has any experience and whether it helps reduce insurance cost.

[Bper]

Hi Shaun,

Yes I have a neighbour who is in his early twenties and it was a condition of his insurance that he would have to have a black box installed. Yes it monitors so many of the drivers actions

The problem for most young motorists is the insurance cost and it does cut the cost by having one installed.

However it hasn't stopped my neighbour from having a couple of minor pranks due to no doubt over confidence in his driving abilities.

Many of the youngsters are and will be considerate and responsible drivers but unfortunately a few bad ones have spoiled it for them and pushed the insurance costs through the roof and unaffordable in many cases.

[Haliotis]

Hi Shaun,

I do not have any experience with black boxes, but does it “know” who is driving at any one time?  Since your daughter’s driving isn’t raising any red flags, can you analyse what is different between your driving and hers?

I think the braking record is flawed, because there are so many situations where the need to brake harder than normal is caused by unexpected actions by third parties. Many situations of hard braking by an experienced driver can be attributed to a collision having been avoided.

Example: When viewing the ‘hybrid coaching’ feature on the MyT app, I have been advised that I should brake more gently when the reason for braking has been due to my actions in response to an unsafe move by a third party.  The novelty factor now having worn off, I no longer log into the ‘coaching’ feature.

[Bper]

These are what  some of the black box monitors.

Most black box insurance policies measure a range of different things. An insurer will then track these measures to give you an overall score for your driving, which will impact the price you pay.

Your insurer could monitor your driving on a monthly or quarterly basis and you should be able to see the score on your app or account. 

Most insurers will monitor the following: 

Acceleration 

Braking 

Cornering 

Type of road 

Smoothness of driving 

Time you’re driving 

Miles driven 

Accidents and impacts 

[ISL]

7 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

Hi Shaun,

I do not have any experience with black boxes, but does it “know” who is driving at any one time?  Since your daughter’s driving isn’t raising any red flags, can you analyse what is different between your driving and hers?

I think the braking record is flawed, because there are so many situations where the need to brake harder than normal is caused by unexpected actions by third parties. Many situations of hard braking by an experienced driver can be attributed to a collision having been avoided.

Example: When viewing the ‘hybrid coaching’ feature on the MyT app, I have been advised that I should brake more gently when the reason for braking has been due to my actions in response to an unsafe move by a third party.  The novelty factor now having worn off, I no longer log into the ‘coaching’ feature.

My daughter so far has only had around 3 lessons, so corners are taken very slowly and braking is eased off well in advance of junctions etc.  She has only really driven on main roads which are open and free flowing, whereas I tend to take over on the narrow single track roads which is where I get all my braking flags when I meet another driver on a blind bend.  Quite often I am only driving around 20mph, but when you meet a another car on a bend the safest thing is to brake sharply without knowing how quickly the other driver can stop.  Other flag I had was for acceleration when overtaking a tractor (I took two stabs at it, first in the wrong gear, then had to drop into 2nd and even at that it seemed to take an eternity 😮).  I guess the problem is that all journeys are short ones, lots of single track roads, braking, corners and junctions.  Overall it seems so much more sensitive than the hybrid coaching when driving my old Yaris.

The message below made me laugh slightly because the car only has 70bhp which means that my foot is flat to the floor most of the time to maintain pace with traffic 🤪 Never thought it was possible to get flagged for acceleration 😂

 

[APS]

1 hour ago, ISL said:

Her driving is brilliant and doesn’t raise any red flags with the insurance whereas it appears that when I use the car I get red flags everywhere, mainly for braking and cornering but also acceleration.

Hi Shaun - Ha! I know what you mean. This is one of the reasons we stayed away from any tracking devices. Several of my friends went with tracker policies when their kids started driving and it was almost always the odd occasions that brought down the score. Maybe the parent used the car, or the new driver needed to pick someone up from somewhere after 10 at night. In the end, the savings were very small if any at all. Some ended up paying a lot more because their score was so bad.

The trackers are quite basic: accelerator, maybe a gyro, GPS, and a clock (from the GPS), and a 3G modem. As far as I'm aware, trackers don't record who is driving (they'd need some biometric authentication to do that).

It might be OK for some drivers. Some are naturally very gentle when driving and would do well with a tracker, while others are more 'progressive' in their style. My kids are a good example, and the more gentle one, is actually not necessarily the safer one.

We used Admiral, who also offer tracker-based insurance, but we opted for non-tracked with a no-claims accelerator. This means you get one year no-claims every 10 months. My son also spent a lot of time on the phone with various insurers and learned how to haggle the premiums down. In the end, we paid pretty much the same as with a tracker policy.

So, if you are using your daughter's car, you'd need to think about how you drive and at what time of the day, and day of the week.

[yossarian247]

For younger inexperienced drivers, yes it can save money.

In my case (late 40s) though when I| tried driving a car with a black box I found it continually marked me down, mainly for cornering. The issue I found was that living in a rural area with mostly 60 MPH limit A-roads, I was taking corners at perhaps 50+ MPH. On a dry, clear day that posed no significant risk, and I was merely keeping up with other traffic at that speed. Nevertheless it severely penalised me for it. In fact having a black box policy at my age would have doubled my premium!

[APS]

3 minutes ago, ISL said:

The message below made me laugh slightly because the car only has 70bhp which means that my foot is flat to the floor most of the time to maintain pace with traffic 🤪 Never thought it was possible to get flagged for acceleration 😂

LOL! Yes, it's scary ripping up the tarmac with 70hp.😇

That screenshot, illustrates what irks me about these trackers. They say acceleration is dangerous. However, hesitation and not accelerating can be really dangerous when you are joining a road where traffic is flowing faster. With 70 bhp on tap, you do need to floor it to safely merge with the other cars. 

[Shared]

This is a few years old now but I found last year many similar stories such as the one's reported here.

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-7678069/Complaints-soar-black-box-gadgets-hep-young-drivers-insured.html 

 

Personally I wouldn't entertain the idea of one, but that's just me, and thankfully becuase I'm not a teenager I don't suffer the horrendous insurance costs they do,  might be a good idea to get your daughter a Dashcam which can help if there are any disputes.

[APS]

1 minute ago, Shared said:

might be a good idea to get your daughter a dashcam which can help if there are any disputes.

This^

Absolutely recommended. Never needed to use it but it gives some peace of mind, regardless of insurance.

[ISL]

I've got a spare Dashcam somewhere, so could be useful for any disputes.

I also use an app on my phone called "Drivescore" which apparently rates my driving quite well, but then this covers all my other cars that I drive (including tail happy stuff in the GR86!), so a lot of cruising and long distance driving that improves the score.  Looking at this app it is less sensitive that the black box fitted in my daughter's car.

Will have to start reading the small print to see whether I will be charged any extra for the red flags I am receiving on my current driving style, just nervous to what I have agreed in the small print!!!  Might even be worth cancelling the policy and spending a bit more without the black box. Policy has only be in operation since the 3rd October, so guess I can cancel and without any penalties.

[APS]

1 hour ago, ISL said:

Might even be worth cancelling the policy and spending a bit more without the black box. Policy has only be in operation since the 3rd October, so guess I can cancel and without any penalties.

Normally 14 days to cancel without penalty.

Personally, I preferred the certainty of a normal fixed insurance premium over a potential £50-£100 saving, or penalty. The fact insurance companies line their pockets by reselling the telemetry they collect from black boxes made me doubly sure I didn't want to support their efforts.

That said, I've been very clear with my kids about the consequences of insurance claims and/or points on your license. 

[Haliotis]

Phil said, “……thankfully because I’m not a teenager I don’t suffer the horrendous insurance costs they do…….”

No, but they get you at the later end of your driving career.  The usual time span for being acceptable as a good driver is five years clear record.  So, say 20+ years clean record means nothing if you are in your 80’s, and you will be charged higher premiums than a pre-retirement driver with over five years clean record, despite any accidents earlier than that.

In 70 years of driving I’ve had one fault accident, and that was my caravan connecting with another on an horrendously busy motorway services.  I was passing close to the other van but, annoyingly, my van wheel dropped into a dip in the ground at just the inopportune moment, and caravans have notoriously soft suspensions and it takes very little to cause them to rock.  That happened in 2011 - I’m long clear of that incident now so I am technically clean, but it is my age that matters - clean record or not.

[Roy124]

70bhp, wow.   My Ford Anglia had 39 and my Triumph 1300 a massive 61.  That enabled me to do a 360 mile journey in 6 hours (no speed limits).

My SAAB 99 had a massive leap to 86.

Bhp isn't everything.  Power to weight and gearing are significant. 

[ISL]

13 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

70bhp, wow.   My Ford Anglia had 39 and my Triumph 1300 a massive 61.  That enabled me to do a 360 mile journey in 6 hours (no speed limits).

My SAAB 99 had a massive leap to 86.

Bhp isn't everything.  Power to weight and gearing are significant. 

I remember driving my grandfather’s Anglia, a 1966 1200super, a massive 49bhp. Agree power to weight is everything, had a 600kg Westfield with 155bhp and Lotus Elise with 160bhp but only 720kg. My GR86 is 1200kg so would need 310bhp to match the power of the Westfield.

This is my daughter’s rocket ship 😂, it can barely pass a pushbike with a tail wind. 70bhp per tonne (about the same as a Ford Anglia 1200 which was a similar weight to a Lotus Elise)

 

[Mjolinor]

What puts me off these is the way that the people that fit them trash the wiring in the car. I have had a few cars that had them when I bought the car and in all cases the wiring is damaged in a similar way to the damage that rats do. Stripped wires, scotch locks (the worst thing ever invented), wires stuffed into fuse blades. At the very least it reduces the life and reliability of the car and at most is a serious fire risk.

 

I wouldn't mind having one if it saved me money but no way will I let people like that mess with my car.

 

[ISL]

2 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

What puts me off these is the way that the people that fit them trash the wiring in the car. I have had a few cars that had them when I bought the car and in all cases the wiring is damaged in a similar way to the damage that rats do. Stripped wires, scotch locks (the worst thing ever invented), wires stuffed into fuse blades. At the very least it reduces the life and reliability of the car and at most is a serious fire risk.

 

I wouldn't mind having one if it saved me money but no way will I let people like that mess with my car.

 

There is no wiring on the one I have, just stick to the windscreen.

[Bper]

14 hours ago, Haliotis said:

Phil said, “……thankfully because I’m not a teenager I don’t suffer the horrendous insurance costs they do…….”

No, but they get you at the later end of your driving career.  The usual time span for being acceptable as a good driver is five years clear record.  So, say 20+ years clean record means nothing if you are in your 80’s, and you will be charged higher premiums than a pre-retirement driver with over five years clean record, despite any accidents earlier than that.

In 70 years of driving I’ve had one fault accident, and that was my caravan connecting with another on an horrendously busy motorway services.  I was passing close to the other van but, annoyingly, my van wheel dropped into a dip in the ground at just the inopportune moment, and caravans have notoriously soft suspensions and it takes very little to cause them to rock.  That happened in 2011 - I’m long clear of that incident now so I am technically clean, but it is my age that matters - clean record or not.

This is unfair Albert, you should be rewarded and not penalised for 70 years of driving. What happened to the outlawing on ageism that was discussed not that long ago. The priorities are all wrong.😭

 

[yossarian247]

15 hours ago, Haliotis said:

Phil said, “……thankfully because I’m not a teenager I don’t suffer the horrendous insurance costs they do…….”

No, but they get you at the later end of your driving career.  The usual time span for being acceptable as a good driver is five years clear record.  So, say 20+ years clean record means nothing if you are in your 80’s, and you will be charged higher premiums than a pre-retirement driver with over five years clean record, despite any accidents earlier than that.

In 70 years of driving I’ve had one fault accident, and that was my caravan connecting with another on an horrendously busy motorway services.  I was passing close to the other van but, annoyingly, my van wheel dropped into a dip in the ground at just the inopportune moment, and caravans have notoriously soft suspensions and it takes very little to cause them to rock.  That happened in 2011 - I’m long clear of that incident now so I am technically clean, but it is my age that matters - clean record or not.

A similar experience to one of my parents' neighbours. He found it increasingly difficult to get reasonably priced insurance to cover cars large and powerful enough to tow his caravan. Bear in mind he was a retired coach driver with over 60 years driving experience and completely free of previous accidents or convictions.

[Haliotis]

1 hour ago, Bper said:

This is unfair Albert, you should be rewarded and not penalised for 70 years of driving. What happened to the outlawing on ageism that was discussed not that long ago. The priorities are all wrong.😭

 

Good question Bob.  And, when I tried Age Concern (among others), they were one of the worst for high premiums.

[Bper]

 

30 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

Good question Bob.  And, when I tried Age Concern (among others), they were one of the worst for high premiums.

Saga are the same as they advertise themselves for older people but the premiums never reflect this. It's this constant merry go round every year going on comparison sites trying to find insurance that you can afford but finding a lower premium is like trying to find a price reduction on Tesco's own brand canned petit pois and baby carrots.😂

[Bper]

14 hours ago, Roy124 said:

70bhp, wow.   My Ford Anglia had 39 and my Triumph 1300 a massive 61.  That enabled me to do a 360 mile journey in 6 hours (no speed limits).

My SAAB 99 had a massive leap to 86.

Bhp isn't everything.  Power to weight and gearing are significant. 

Hi Roy,

I had a Triumph TR7 who's pop up front lights only worked when a full moon was visible..😂

I also had a Ford Anglia that had more holes then Emmental cheese.😂

 

[Rhymes with Paris]

A few of us here seem to share similar car histories.

Similar ages I suppose.

So yes to Anglias and TR7 in the car bingo.

My TR7 had a wonderful aftermarket sparkrite alarm system on it.

As is the way with such things it often went off for no reason, that could usually be stopped by opening the bonnet and giving it a tap,it was best when it was raining however as if I forgot to wipe the bonnet dry first,it dumped the water onto the alarm box, and killed the engine for at least an hour at a time.

 

[Cyker]

10 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

What puts me off these is the way that the people that fit them trash the wiring in the car. I have had a few cars that had them when I bought the car and in all cases the wiring is damaged in a similar way to the damage that rats do. Stripped wires, scotch locks (the worst thing ever invented), wires stuffed into fuse blades. At the very least it reduces the life and reliability of the car and at most is a serious fire risk.

 

I wouldn't mind having one if it saved me money but no way will I let people like that mess with my car.

Yeah those early trackers that spliced into the OBD2 port/CANbus wiring were just awful; I know of a few people who'd gotten 2nd hand cars that developed weird problems, that were later traced back to black boxes in the car where the wiring had been wrecked when the box was removed. In a few cases the box hadn't even been removed!

These days, most of the 'black box' policies just make you install an app on your phone and use the phone's GPS, accelerometers, internet connection etc., although some have a literal box that you have to stick to your windscreen (And woe betide you if it falls off! The 'sudden acceleration' of it falling and hitting the floor will probably invalidate your insurance!    )

 

[Haliotis]

Do not most of us regularly come across some idiot - driver, cyclist or pedestrian - who causes us to brake or swerve to avoid a collision.  And for someone who drives a low mileage, but daily does a bit of shopping or ferries a family member to and from work, and  has a black box fitted to their car  - I wonder how the insurance company would deal with a low mileage, careful diver who had to deal with a series of incidents through no fault of their own - in fact their being very competent behind the wheel when dealing with a string of fools, which is becoming a commonplace situation, when checking the black box activity?