12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[Roy124]

Veronica, you have been offered several solutions to what is a problem with any modern hybrid.  I believe Kia has a workaround but other manufacturers may have as well. 

What should manufacturers do?  Or rather why should they do anything?  The hybrid is an interim solution between a direct fossil fuel engine and an indirect fossil one, ie EV or Hydrogen.  Apparently EV sales captured 23% new car sales last year. 

The only real incentive for manufacturers is reputational preservation. 

What should you do? Can you demand your money back and get an EV or petrol car? Given your low usage an EV could have been a better option. 

If you do get an EV you will still need to plug it in. 

 

[TonyHSD]

Indeed.
The Yaris Cross is probably the best car in its class simply because Toyota currently make the best hybrids and the best cars with internal combustion engine. Like anything else the Hybrid cars has its own problems and niggles that many new comers aren’t aware of. These cars works slightly differently from standard petrol or diesel equivalents and so they require slightly different approach in terms of maintenance and general care. Perhaps Toyota sales person should have asked you what is your usage, how and where you use the car, how often etc. At least they could have offer you some other models like Aygo x or tell you that you will need to take extra care about your 12v Battery to preserve its life. Basically the car has its own problems but the dealer is to blame more than anything else. 
Used car prices are very high now and you might be able to sell for a profit, nothing lost here. My suggestion for your next car is full electric or small petrol without any hybrid technology if possible. Dacia Sandero Stepway cvt auto £18000 before any discount., not bad. 👍

[SinglePointSafety]

Veronica, I totally agree with the advice offered here. As an EV owner for our main car, I'd say there are two big ifs: (1) If you can charge at home and (2) If your journeys are all short enough to be well within the range of a 'typical' EV (say < 200 miles total) then an EV might well suit. Public rapid charging in the UK is still a bit of an unregulated pile of poo and requires a significant degree of planning, so that's OK for some people but not everyone, depending on circumstances

But as Roy and Tony say, you could also consider a comparable-size non-hybrid petrol car, lots of choice

Edit: as others have said, given the used prices and YC demand, you might not lose much if you sell. If you do that and your supplying dealer comes in with a low offer, try some other dealers and also enter your reg on the Motorway site - have used them twice, each time the final sale price was > initial estimate, so it's a good reality check

[Hibird]

Lots of advice and suggestions here ranging from cheap and cheerful to expensive and total end game. If I had your level of disatisfaction with my vehicle and the workarounds needed to resolve those issues I would be up for some serious dealer interaction. No dealer wants unhappy customers creating a scene in their showroom in front of other potential customers. You need the issue sorted to your satisfaction within the bounds of reasonable expectations or your money back or some combination of events that is acceptable to you.

Confrontation is not for everyone and will not always work but desperate times require desperate measures as the say.

I met a guy outside a well know electrical retailer some years ago with a large plackard stating his disatisfaction with a hifi system he had purchased he was very vocal and very unhappy but also very successful.

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

2 hours ago, vm1 said:

It should also be pointed out before buying this car that unless you are driving it regularly you are going to get problems.

Most salespeople would assume that, when a customer says they're interested in buying a specific model, that they have already investigated whether it is suitable for their needs - which includes usage. So unless you specifically described what your usage was when ordering the car, the salesperson wouldn't have reason to question suitability.

Only 450 miles in approx eight months is extremely low mileage - equating to less than 1,000 a year - and this level of usage will be the main contributory factor to the Battery issues. Generally warranties cover manufacturing faults, and not failures relating to how the product is used.

It isn't just hybrids which may have issues with batteries with this level of use in today's cars. Our 2020 petrol i20 warns about Battery discharge within a few minutes of turning the engine off if we keep the multimedia unit on.

As regards rejecting the car and getting your money back, your contract of sale will be with the supplying dealer who you say is now outside your area. So you will need to approach them if you want to progress this avenue. 

As an outside chance, you could contact Toyota GB customer services (not the dealer), explain your circumstances, and see whether they are willing to provide some help with your problem under goodwill - even if this is only a contribution to the cost of a new Battery. But as you're asking for assistance, keep any contact to the point and don't enter into any type of blame game or similar.

Failing the above, you may have no choice but to get a new battery, but if you do, see whether the dealer can put a higher capacity battery in your car which may help to a limited degree, and wouldn't necessarily cost much more.

If your level of usage continues to be as low as you've highlighted, some ongoing maintenance will be required to maintain the battery. So depending whether the car is garaged, parked on a driveway, etc, either a solar charger or maintainer charger may be needed. Your dealer should be able to provide some advice on this.

[MCatPG]

4 hours ago, Hibird said:

I met a guy outside a well know electrical retailer some years ago with a large plackard stating his disatisfaction with a hifi system he had purchased he was very vocal and very unhappy but also very successful.

Try that with a large company which has access to the litigation department of a substantial law firm and you'll very quickly be on the receiving end of an injunction and a bill for legal costs that will make your eyes water.

[MCatPG]

22 hours ago, Dala said:

Q3 / Yes - I have a hard-wired connection to the 12V battery from Optimate Solar for connecting a solar 20W panel
https://optimate1.com/tm522d2/
 

Dala, 

I'm buying one of those Optimate solar charging kits today (and a CETEK charger) because when we are cruising during the summer we need to leave our car for long periods at the marina car park. Thanks for that great idea.

Are the eyelets on the Opimate Battery leads 8mm diameter so they will fit the Battery terminal posts?

I've been studying the pictures you posted on another thread (this one https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/204001-2021-yaris-battery/?do=findComment&comment=1619705 ) and I'm not sure what you did. Have you fitted two leads to the Battery terminal posts, one for the Optimate Solar Charger and another for the CETEK mains charger, or did you fit one lead and find an adapter which lets both chargers plug into the same leads? These are the pictures you posted:

 

  

Thanks again.

Edited January 7, 2023 by MCatPG
Spelling!

[Hibird]

1 hour ago, MCatPG said:

Try that with a large company which has access to the litigation department of a substantial law firm and you'll very quickly be on the receiving end of an injunction and a bill for legal costs that will make your eyes water.

You may be right but it worked for that guy,  however I don't think showing disatisfaction breaks any laws !

 

[Dala]

14 minutes ago, MCatPG said:

Dala, 

I'm buying one of those Optimate solar charging kits today (and a CETEK charger) because when we are cruising during the summer we need to leave our car for long periods at the marina car park. Thanks for that great idea.

Are the eyelets on the Opimate battery leads 8mm diameter so they will fit the battery terminal posts?

I've been studying the pictures you posted on another thread (this one https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/204001-2021-yaris-battery/?do=findComment&comment=1619705 ) and I'm not sure what you did. Have you fitted two leads to the battery terminal posts, one for the Optimate Solar Charger and another for the CETEK mains charger, or did you fit one lead and find an adapter which lets both chargers plug into the same leads? These are the pictures you posted:

Thanks again.

I had the fixed connecting cable to the Battery installed directly from the dealer.
The cable has the designation O-01 (M6 and M8):
https://optimate1.com/cbleo-01/
I only have this cable connected
the toyota dealer connected both ends to the Battery
for Ctek I use the reduction:
https://www.ctek.com/uk/battery-chargers-12v-24v/add-ons/indicator-pigtail

[Jimota]

7 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Most salespeople would assume that, when a customer says they're interested in buying a specific model, that they have already investigated whether it is suitable for their needs - which includes usage. So unless you specifically described what your usage was when ordering the car, the salesperson wouldn't have reason to question suitability.

Only 450 miles in approx eight months is extremely low mileage - equating to less than 1,000 a year - and this level of usage will be the main contributory factor to the battery issues. Generally warranties cover manufacturing faults, and not failures relating to how the product is used.

It isn't just hybrids which may have issues with batteries with this level of use in today's cars. Our 2020 petrol i20 warns about battery discharge within a few minutes of turning the engine off if we keep the multimedia unit on.

As regards rejecting the car and getting your money back, your contract of sale will be with the supplying dealer who you say is now outside your area. So you will need to approach them if you want to progress this avenue. 

As an outside chance, you could contact Toyota GB customer services (not the dealer), explain your circumstances, and see whether they are willing to provide some help with your problem under goodwill - even if this is only a contribution to the cost of a new battery. But as you're asking for assistance, keep any contact to the point and don't enter into any type of blame game or similar.

Failing the above, you may have no choice but to get a new battery, but if you do, see whether the dealer can put a higher capacity battery in your car which may help to a limited degree, and wouldn't necessarily cost much more.

If your level of usage continues to be as low as you've highlighted, some ongoing maintenance will be required to maintain the battery. So depending whether the car is garaged, parked on a driveway, etc, either a solar charger or maintainer charger may be needed. Your dealer should be able to provide some advice on this.

Excellent point Frostyballs.  If someone is only driving 450 miles in eight months, you have to question why they purchased a car, hybrid, petrol, diesel or EV, in the first place.  It would make sense and be more cost effective to use a taxi.

[vm1]

Just to clarify why i haven't been able to drive the car is because of serious illness.

I will not be adding anything else now.

[Roy124]

When we bought our Corolla we were downsizing from an E220D and had no preconceived idea what make to buy or model within their range.  We would have liked an EV but quickly decided hybrid would be the best option.

We told the Toyota dealer and he established our needs and expectations.  He was the best dealer of several with Volvo the worst by a country mile and Kia not much better.

My approach when buying a novel product is "Sell me xxx".  Once in Cxxxxxs the salesman said "which one do you want". He didn't make the sale.

[Jimota]

19 minutes ago, vm1 said:

Just to clarify why i haven't been able to drive the car is because of serious illness.

I will not be adding anything else now.

Sincere apologies Veronica,  I was not aware of your situation and no offence was intended.  Best wishes to you for the future.

[Max_Headroom]

6 minutes ago, Jimota said:

Just to clarify why i haven't been able to drive the car is because of serious illness.

Sorry to hear that but if you only drove the car 1000 in a year i think you would have had problems with the Battery even if you had bought an internal combustion engine car, every time you start the car it takes a good few miles to get the charge back into the Battery doing such very low mileage would have meant eventually the Battery would have been drained.

[anchorman]

2 hours ago, Jimota said:

Excellent point Frostyballs.  If someone is only driving 450 miles in eight months, you have to question why they purchased a car, hybrid, petrol, diesel or EV, in the first place.  It would make sense and be more cost effective to use a taxi.

[AisinW]

On 1/6/2023 at 9:17 PM, Marjan said:

Hi to everyone 

Iam new here

2 questions:

1. How strong must be the booster to jump start the hybrid battery without the problem?

I dont have my car yet(ordered yaris cross) but i want to buy something in advance. 
edit:

Osram battery start 200

6000 mAh with maximum power of 500A

Would be ok?
 

2. Can someone of yaris cross owner confirm that you can jump start the vehicle from the fuse box? I really don't want to bother with the back seats option. 
 

 

You only need 60 Amps CCA to start th4 car. Almost any jump starter works but choose the one that is known. I am more concern about  safety and warranty instead of capacity on jump starter. 

I think all hybrid have fuse box + port. The - post is anywhere bare metal on the body.

Here is the official maintenance procedure for both HV and 12V Battery. It is USA gov. Website, but still relevant to our car in Europe.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10154807-9999.pdf

[AisinW]

12 hours ago, anchorman said:

14 hours ago, Jimota said:

Excellent point Frostyballs.  If someone is only driving 450 miles in eight months, you have to question why they purchased a car, hybrid, petrol, diesel or EV, in the first place.  It would make sense and be more cost effective to use a taxi.

Expand  

It is true, the depreciation value and insurance cost way too much than city rental cars. 450 miles in a year is less than 1/4 what i spent on Stadtmobil (city car rent). Fortunately,we have easy rental cars in every 2km radius in the neighborhood.  It cost about 0.22€/km. Full insurance €40 (stolen, totaled, etc) a year and I can rent fancy cars like Tesla, Audi, etc for €0.35/km without repair headache. 

If we do not need the car for a while because of various reason, now is a good time to sell. Used car price is crazy. My car at 45k km/30k miles more than when I bought 3 years ago is €2000 more expensive now. 

[Russ Taylor]

14 hours ago, vm1 said:

Just to clarify why i haven't been able to drive the car is because of serious illness.

I will not be adding anything else now.

Best wishes Veronica. 

[Mooly]

Just posting this for general interest as it shows (imo) what low annual mileage really is. These figures are taken from MOT's on our ancient 2003 Corolla. The middle years in this list show some pretty low annual mileages. It never sounded anything less than eager to start on the coldest winter days (stood outside for sometimes two weeks between being fired up). That these low annual figures persisted for several years shows that even a very short charging cycle is more than sufficient to keep the Battery charged. The same Battery is still on the car today. 

If the Hybrids had a similar background quiescent current draw and similar charging regime as a conventional internal combustion engine then all these myriad issues would not occur. It is as simple as that.

It is either excess background current draw or an incorrectly implemented charging routine from the DC/DC convertor or a combination of both.

 

The jump from summer to winter for the MOT's is because of the 6 month Covid extension in 2020.

June 2012, 24,985 miles
July 2013, 27,214 miles
June 2014, 28,792 miles
July 2015, 30,167 miles
July 2016, 30,678 miles
July 2017, 31,190 miles
July 2018, 32,107 miles
July 2019, 33,470 miles
Jan  2021, 38,605 miles
Jan  2022, 41,459 miles
Jan  2023, 44,751 miles
 

[Marjan]

2 hours ago, AisinW said:

You only need 60 Amps CCA to start th4 car. Almost any jump starter works but choose the one that is known. I am more concern about  safety and warranty instead of capacity on jump starter. 

I think all hybrid have fuse box + port. The - post is anywhere bare metal on the body.

Here is the official maintenance procedure for both HV and 12V battery. It is USA gov. Website, but still relevant to our car in Europe.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10154807-9999.pdf

Thanks for the link. Will check. 🙂

As for the Battery starter i decided for noco GB40. I still hope that i will not need it. But for peace in my mind,better to have in the car. 

 

[Dala]

BM6 - average Working Current : 1.5mA
Pandora alarm - average Working Current <7mA

start of measurement on a parked car at rest 11 o'clock

first day - 0.15V
second day - 0.07V

[Roy124]

Marjan, same principle as a spare wheel or can of inflator, hi viz vests, 1st Aid Kit or warning triangle. You hope never to need them. 

[AisinW]

First Aid, vest and triangle are mandatory in some countries. In Swiss, we must have vests for everyone in the car.

Get a jumper cable at least. It always works as long as someone willing to give a help. We can get jumped, but cannot  jump start regular cars because the DCtoDC converter has much lower Amperage than typical non hybrid car 12V Battery. 

[MCatPG]

5 hours ago, Mooly said:

It is either excess background current draw or an incorrectly implemented charging routine from the DC/DC convertor or a combination of both.

Mooly - I agree but I'm going to suggest a more complex causality, and solutions.

This will be a long post, those who aren't interested in getting to the root cause of the accessory Battery failure problem and the possible solutions should skip it.

In another thread @anchorman kindly pointed out that Hybrid cars are not boats, presumably in case I hadn't noticed. But our boat is where I get my knowledge of 12V DC Battery management from and it's directly relevant to the problem.

On the boat when we don't have shore power we use batteries of the same type as the accessory Battery in the Toyota Yaris Cross, and many other hybrids:- 12V DC Absorbent Glass Mat/AGM. Our boat battery manufacturer provides data about anticipated lifetime cycles and battery damage caused by excessive discharge. The point is that the number of charge/discharge cycles and the actual energy in any cycle which you can extract from these batteries is limited, and greatly reduced if the batteries are mis-used. Here's a table I prepared myself:

The vital data is the note that the battery State of Charge (SoC) should NEVER fall below 50%, which on these batteries is indicated by 12.18V at rest. The Toyota accessory batteries will have different figures but not very much. If the batteries fall below this level and remain there for anything more than a few minutes there is a significant risk of bringing forward the bill for installing a new set of batteries. I manage the batteries when we are aboard so that they never fall into the red area and we have redundant warning systems to inform us if this happens when we are not on the boat. We aim to get 8 years from a set of batteries. The biggest problem we have had is the amount of electricity that is wasted by what we call parasitic (and others call quiescent or background) current drawn from the batteries. These are things which are always on and individually take only small amounts of current, but cumulatively they are a problem. Over the years I have got rid of a lot of them and I'm hopeful that I can get rid of more this year.

So how does this relate to the cars?

The accessory battery in the Yaris Cross is, I believe, 35Ah, so 35 x 12 = 420Wh, and assuming these batteries shouldn't go below 50% SoC that's 210Wh of available energy, from fully charged. Putting it another way a fully charged battery could run an old fashioned 100W light bulb for 2 hours, or for people my age with long memories a one bar electric fire for 12.6 minutes. The trouble is that current is being drawn from the accessory battery all the time, even when the car is idle, by parasitic devices.  If you search on the forums for "parasitic" and "quiescent" you'll find lots of posts and some very good technical analyses about the parasitic current being drawn from these batteries.

The accessory battery can only be charged by drawing current from the "Hybrid"/Propulsion battery (Toyota call it the High Voltage or HV battery) via the DC/DC converter, and only when the car is in READY mode. If the car is idle and locked there is no charge going into the accessory battery and the parasitic current will eventually discharge it below an acceptable SoC. How long this discharge takes will depend on the value of the parasitic draw AND the initial SoC of the battery AND the physical condition of the battery AND the ambient temperature.

With that as background, in my view the causes of the problem in the cars are deep-rooted in the design, and the solutions follow from the causes:-

1. Inadequate capacity of the accessory battery - the designers should have specified a higher capacity battery and accepted the additional weight and/or cost. 
2. Excessive parasitic current drawn from the accessory battery when the car is idle, together with insufficient control given to owners to enable them to reduce the parasitic current if necessary. Both these causes could be cured.
3. Lack of a warning system to inform owners that the accessory battery is being drained below an acceptable SoC. The owner needs some way of knowing that an accessory battery recharge is needed and that is why owners are buying voltmeters. Ideally there should be a warning light visible from inside and outside the vehicle and/or a text message. 
4. Very slow charging of the accessory battery via the system of engine generator > HV battery > DC/DC converter > accessory battery, so that numerous short journeys will result in the accessory battery never receiving a full charge. @Mooly questions whether the design of the DC/DC converter is part of the problem and I think it probably is. The manufacturer's solution is to tell owners to decide when to recharge the accessory battery (without telling them how they should know - cause 3) and then to engage READY mode and sit in or stay near to their cars for a lengthy period of time while the accessory battery is slowly charged by discharging the HV battery via the DC/DC converter, and the HV battery is itself recharged by occasional automatic engine runs. It should be possible for the owner to force the car to run its engine/generator when stationary and charge the accessory battery directly in the same way as a conventional car alternator does. I've seen comments that AGM batteries can't accept a high current inflow when they need it - this is incorrect. They do need a staged charge (bulk > absorption >  float) but a battery which is very depleted can accept a high initial charge. Alternatively the accessory battery should have a Lithium chemistry.
5. Lack of a convenient way to charge the accessory battery from an external source. This is what @Dala and others have installed and I will be installing myself. It should be a standard fitting and would cost the manufacturer very little. For the owner it would be no different to having a PHEV or BEV which needs to be plugged in.
6. Damage to batteries which have fallen below the minimum acceptable SoC at some time because of causes 1-5, and which now have a capacity to store energy which is far below the original capacity so that they "go flat" in just a day or two, as so many have reported. This could be solved by a better charging regime as explained above.

I know that Toyota don't read these forums so I've probably wasted my time typing this, bet never mind.

It seems to me that many other hybrids are similar. It's not just the yaris Cross and it's not just Toyota.

@MoolyPS: On my screen the figures for your car from 2003 to 2011 inclusive are missing

[Mooly]

For some reason I can't 'like' the post of @MCatPG

Great post... had a few tries, same message.

1 hour ago, MCatPG said:

On my screen the figures for your car from 2003 to 2011 inclusive are missing

I didn't put the early years on as the average annual mileage was a bit higher.