12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[Roy124]

On the last point, how many 2-way streets do you see with cars parked on one side? 

As for cleaning windscreens, washers were an extra. I remember being driven down the East Lancs Road one horrible night, Ford Zephyr with the pneumatic wipers.  The driver stretching his hand out the window with a squeegee bottle. 

Oh joy. 

And the other trick "punch a hole in the windscreen if it gets hit by a stone" 

[Rhymes with Paris]

I am indeed morbidly curious, and read them.

Could a good a good start be had by perhaps asking learners if they can find their own arris with both hands?

I shudder to think where all this is going, but have a fairly good idea by the driving behaviour of the clueless.

 

 

[Bob66]

I find these last few comments pathetic and typical of silly old men....modern cars don't need to be tinkered with....if I don't need to lift up another bonnet, ever again in my life, I'll be pleased. They average person isn't interested in any maintainence what so ever....it's left to the garage or a motoring rescue organisation.

Live and let live gents.

[Roy124]

Best of luck Peter. 

[anchorman]

15 hours ago, RobertR said:

It will work, I'm sure it does but not recommended for anyone who dont know what they doing as you said. My first car have manual lights and i forgoting turn them off after trip or over night numerous time, it was old VW polo 1.4 petrol, battery was dead...deaply under 12V and i just put my garage lab power supply, put voltage to 14.4V and current limiter to 5A and after 15 to 20 minutes battery have enough charge to crank up the engine. Toyota hybrid dc to dc converter is charging 8A into the battery and if you connect discharged battery to your battery, the current will flow into battery with lower voltage, into the dead one, even your good battery will be putting some current to weaker battery. Yes its risky if you dont know what are you doing but if no other choice, somewhere in wildness, I will do it without hassitation. But as you said, not recommended as commod advice.

You can’t get a small Battery to charge a big Battery fully, you’d be rich if you could.  You’d then have to subject the DC to DC converter to the demand of the drained Battery - something it wasn’t designed for so if you play those sort of games, you won’t have to get upset when Toyota kick out the warranty costs of whatever gets fried.   It’s a theory but it’s a risk I wouldn’t advocate anybody tries.

[RobertR]

I don't say you can fully charge a dead battery(bigger capacity) with a small 12V Battery. But the DCtoDC converter will, and yes, it's designed to charge a lead acid Battery, if you connect another Battery to your current one(in parallel), it will have no clue about that and the converter will work exactly the same as usual, it limits current an 8A charging current and current will be flowing into the battery with lower voltage, the capacity of the battery(Ah) has nothing do with it. And for cranking up the ICE you don't need a fully charged battery.

Regarding the dead battery in your hybrids, It is also possible to buy a lithium battery jump starter and just plug it into a low state of charge 12V battery for 20 minutes and they will charge the battery as well (not fully of course but enough to start the ICE) and you will be able the start the engine even with the jump starter disconnected. People don't do it this way(or the user manual doesn't say it) because those LiPo batteries in the jumps starter can handle >200A starting currents without problems, so no need to wait 20 minutes to slow charge the 12V car battery(after the start you alternator will do) if you can plug the jump starter right in and crank the engine up.

It's perfectly safe for some of you to put unbranded solar panels into the OBD port, a port that is connected directly to the most sensitive part of the car, the MCU, yes, it has some ESD protection parts but far more sensitive as the 12V system, this is no problem, Funny.

But this goes too technical for normal car users. Just do what your user manual is telling you to do and you will be fine.

[anchorman]

5 hours ago, RobertR said:

I don't say you can fully charge a dead battery(bigger capacity) with a small 12V battery. But the DCtoDC converter will, and yes, it's designed to charge a lead acid battery, if you connect another battery to your current one(in parallel), it will have no clue about that and the converter will work exactly the same as usual, it limits current an 8A charging current and current will be flowing into the battery with lower voltage, the capacity of the battery(Ah) has nothing do with it. And for cranking up the ICE you don't need a fully charged battery.

Regarding the dead battery in your hybrids, It is also possible to buy a lithium battery jump starter and just plug it into a low state of charge 12V battery for 20 minutes and they will charge the battery as well (not fully of course but enough to start the ICE) and you will be able the start the engine even with the jump starter disconnected. People don't do it this way(or the user manual doesn't say it) because those LiPo batteries in the jumps starter can handle >200A starting currents without problems, so no need to wait 20 minutes to slow charge the 12V car battery(after the start you alternator will do) if you can plug the jump starter right in and crank the engine up.

It's perfectly safe for some of you to put unbranded solar panels into the OBD port, a port that is connected directly to the most sensitive part of the car, the MCU, yes, it has some ESD protection parts but far more sensitive as the 12V system, this is no problem, Funny.

But this goes too technical for normal car users. Just do what your user manual is telling you to do and you will be fine.

I don’t know how old you are but there’s a very good chance I was working on motors before you were born and your advice will land people in lumber with warranty.  Unless you’ll pick up the tab when they’re faced with a big bill you might be well advised to stop spreading risky ideas.  

[Hibird]

On 1/6/2023 at 3:56 PM, Dala said:

the video is old
now i have an extra battery
total capacity is 1440 Wh
maximum charging time with Ctek Time To Go is 2-4 hours
total maximum 79 hours from 100% to 0% from portable powerhouse
("float mode" consumes 4W + converter 15W - total 19W per hour)

the device can be turned on and off using an app on a mobile phone
in this way it is possible to charge a 12V battery every week

It is NOT NECESSARY to put the hybrid car into "READY MODE" every week

https://www.ecoflow.com/us/river-pro-portable-power-station

 

 

 

Life is strange Dala, having been inspired by your use of a 'power station' to mitigate 12v Battery issues I came across a pal with a 'Jackery' unit he had no use for having not fully understood what he was buying it for in the first place. Anyway a deal was done and it is now mine. Tried it out with a victron bluetooth controlled charger and job done. Lower capacity than yours but should do 4hours @ 4amps so more than enough for regular top ups if needed without the need to run wires out to the car and then having to pack them away again. So thanks for sharing your story.

[RobertR]

You clearly don't read my text or just don't understand what I'm saying, and that's ok. I write two times I do not recommend it. It's an idea of how to jump-start a dead car Battery if you know what are you doing if you don't know what are you doing and you do it anyway, it's your problem and if something happened then you need to face the consequences if happened.

About the 12V Battery maintenance, what is about this thread. 
Well if your Battery is discharging to point that you are unable to start the hybrid system, your battery is dead and needs to be replaced(by a dealer if the warranty is valid).
You can use a trickle charger to boost the battery during standby if you have a safe garage.
Here are some solar-powered trickle charger ideas and they work, but again, you need to have at least basic electrician knowledge.

[anchorman]

2 hours ago, RobertR said:

You clearly don't read my text or just don't understand what I'm saying, and that's ok. I write two times I do not recommend it. It's an idea of how to jump-start a dead car battery if you know what are you doing if you don't know what are you doing and you do it anyway, it's your problem and if something happened then you need to face the consequences if happened.

About the 12V battery maintenance, what is about this thread. 
Well if your battery is discharging to point that you are unable to start the hybrid system, your battery is dead and needs to be replaced(by a dealer if the warranty is valid).
You can use a trickle charger to boost the battery during standby if you have a safe garage.
Here are some solar-powered trickle charger ideas and they work, but again, you need to have at least basic electrician knowledge.

I understood ok.  As you said, everyone else hasn’t got the same knowledge so do be careful when you incompetently mess with things you don’t understand.  Don’t experiment with anything other than the handbook even if an expert has sprinkled corn.  It’s ok for the rest of you to be inferior so don’t feel bad if it’s over your head.  Amazing I understood really.

[Max_Headroom]

5 hours ago, RobertR said:

About the 12V battery maintenance, what is about this thread. 
Well if your battery is discharging to point that you are unable to start the hybrid system, your battery is dead and needs to be replaced(by a dealer if the warranty is valid).

Why does the dead Battery need replacing its run out of charge its not faulty, would you bin your mobile phone if you had forgotten to charge it and it was dead?

[SinglePointSafety]

24 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

Why does the dead battery need replacing its run out of charge its not faulty, would you bin your mobile phone if you had forgotten to charge it and it was dead?

Because a mobile phone Battery uses Li-Ion technology, which means the Battery isn't damaged if the charge falls to zero. The 12V Battery in hybrid cars uses a different technology which, unfortunately, can irreparably damage the battery if it fully discharges (lots of articles on eg Wikipedia will explain the chemistry of these different battery types, if you're interested)

[RobertR]

Correct. Smartphone Battery is well protected, 12V car Battery have basically none, but to be fair its also more robust than your liion Battery and will hold some abuse, but not undercharge. Your car will slowly discharging it until its way below under the zero state of charge.

[Yugguy1970]

I wonder if some Yaris have different batteries than others?

The missus Yaris gets laid up for weeks at a time as she works in a school, most recently 17th dec to 4th Jan, and we never see any issues.

[SinglePointSafety]

3 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

I wonder if some Yaris have different batteries than others?

The missus Yaris gets laid up for weeks at a time as she works in a school, most recently 17th dec to 4th Jan, and we never see any issues.

If the car is used every work day, it's likely that at the start of its 'holiday' the car's 12V Battery is at or near full charge, so giving it a much better chance of retaining sufficient charge

You don't say what age your wife's car is: perhaps on older cars with less 'tech' such as e-call, it's possible that the drain on the Battery is less than the latest models. We had a Yaris Mk3 for 5 years and it sometimes didn't get used for a few weeks, with no apparent ill effects

[Max_Headroom]

28 minutes ago, SinglePointSafety said:

Because a mobile phone battery uses Li-Ion technology, which means the battery isn't damaged if the charge falls to zero. The 12V battery in hybrid cars uses a different technology which, unfortunately, can irreparably damage the battery if it fully discharges (lots of articles on eg Wikipedia will explain the chemistry of these different battery types, if you're interested)

Thanks for explaining.

There are several threads which are many pages long about the power loss of the 12v Battery some trickle charge if they have off street parking, some solar charge if they don't and many use a booster pack i haven't seen any posts about the Battery not holding a charge once the car has been jumped with the booster pack, if you are letting the Battery go flat every time you drive the car then i can see from your post damage may be caused but i don't see how a couple of jump starts a year could cause so much damage and as i said there seems no evidence of it from the many posts by owners here.

[Roy124]

A flat Battery that fails to start the car is not a dead Battery but a flat one.  How badly it is damaged is variable.  We had a Merc with a very large Battery but after sitting at a crash site for some time, hazards flashing, it would not start.  It was jumped and we had no further problems for quite some time. 

Later it would start quickly but less quickly than before and I was told we had a dying cell.  At Kwikfit they changed the battery but actually suggested it was not necessary. 

I suffered 3 flat batteries on my Corolla and the length of time before it failed to start was shorter each time.  When it failed to start the battery voltage was around 8v.

I suggest only if the battery is below X volts is it irretrievably flat, ie dead. 

[Yugguy1970]

46 minutes ago, SinglePointSafety said:

If the car is used every work day, it's likely that at the start of its 'holiday' the car's 12V battery is at or near full charge, so giving it a much better chance of retaining sufficient charge

You don't say what age your wife's car is: perhaps on older cars with less 'tech' such as e-call, it's possible that the drain on the battery is less than the latest models. We had a Yaris Mk3 for 5 years and it sometimes didn't get used for a few weeks, with no apparent ill effects

Aye good point about the state of charge at the start of the lay off.  Its a 71 plate though so same model as a lot that are having problems.

[Derek.w]

Personly I buy a charger for the ntype of Battery you have and recharge it.

If the Battery starting voltage is 2 volts or greater it will recharge but how well it holds it charge ie how long in days will determine if you need a new Battery or just recharge it lets say once a week.

If a new battery is fitted you still need a battery charger to keep it toped up.

[RobertR]

I told this issue to a friend of mine and he was on recall by the dealer to swap the Battery because of the damaged batch during manufacturing. (auris 2019)

It looks like the cars themselves are ok, they don't have high consumption during standby, a little higher than normal ICE cars. But if your car Battery is weak even in a new car, it will go flat very quickly. 

To be fair to Toyota, they are replacing the batteries under warranty without the problem.

[SinglePointSafety]

Hope this helps....Bought a Noco Genius 2 charger today from Halford's. Charger has a two-part lead with shielded connectors (images on Noco web site make this obvious) and the Battery crocodile clips also incorporate detachable M8 ring connectors. Took it to the dealer on way back to explain what I needed doing, and blimey, excellent service, they did it there and then with a minimal wait, free of charge (no pun intended). Technician who did it has done a few of these, and totally approved of the strategy, especially as the car will be left idle for a few weeks at some point soon(ish)

So now I have a lead attached to the 12V Battery (which is under the seat - no, I don't know either why they put it there) with the connector exiting from under the seat cushion, very neat. I've just connected the charger, selected '12V AGM', and it's charging! The mains lead goes through the rear open window, car is in a locked garage so that arrangement works just fine for me

Even though the car had about an hour's driving a couple of days ago, the charger reckons the Battery was somewhere between 25-50% charged....

[Roy124]

SPS, I don't bother with the window.   Soft rubber door seal does not damage the wire.

[SinglePointSafety]

3 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

SPS, I don't bother with the window.   Soft rubber door seal does not damage the wire.

Thanks Roy, much appreciated, that's good to know - will try that next time

[Roy124]

PS, just checked my volts, last drive the car Wednesday and had 12.27 now. Well up on my Corolla which could have been down to 12 by now.

[AisinW]

12.27V is normal if you did not drive for a while. Probably you just open the  driver door or  lights are on. Typically it is 12.3-12.6 V after you drive 30 minutes or more. 

My 7y old Battery reach 12.7V after fully charge with Lidl 5A charger and surface charge is removed (press the brake for 3s). Toyota stated 12.6V or above is considered to be safe for 30 days storage.

Below is the NHTSA (USA gov. Highway) TSB in case someone parked hybrid car for months.

RESCUE Hybrid Battery

 https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2022/MC-10213900-9999.pdf