12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[AisinW]

@Mooly you can use OBD2 scanner like veepeak + Torque Pro App to read the voltage Or voltmeter/ multimeter. 

In ACC (2X power button), > 11.5V, headlights On+ ACC >11V, the Battery is still usable.  

the car won't start/CEL if during the start,  the voltage drop below 10V. 

[Mooly]

5 hours ago, AisinW said:

In ACC (2X power button), > 11.5V, headlights On+ ACC >11V, the battery is still usable.  

Thanks. Fully charged and even a small 35Ah Battery should hold up with headlights on for a couple of hours or more and not fall below 11v. I've always considered 10.8v as the absolute minimum a Battery could be discharged to and should that occur it should be fully charged immediately. 

A big part of the problem as I see it in these threads is that the Battery spends a lot of time in a low state of charge. That is what is killing them imo.  

   

[Dala]

22 minutes ago, Mooly said:

...the battery spends a lot of time in a low state of charge. That is what is killing them imo. ..

   

this is the exact definition!
I fully agree

[Dala]

6 hours ago, Hibird said:

I came across the website below while doing some reading on Toyota AGM batteries....

https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/toyota-tech-tip-absorbed-glass-mat-agm-battery-information/

interesting information:

"Never connect the GR8 Battery Diagnostic Station to remote Battery terminals; always connect the GR8 Battery Diagnostic Station directly to the vehicle battery"

resolved whether to connect the charger to the launch point

[AisinW]

@Mooly we only need to test it in 1-2 minutes. We don't  want to let it drops too low below 12V open voltage.  

[Mooly]

Why do you only need test it for 1 to 2 minutes?

Testing it for 1 to 2 minutes doesn't begin to tell you anything of its actual capacity. If it drops below 12v after a minute or so with headlights on then it is not fully charged and/or not in great shape. It should hold for a couple of hours like that and just as important is that the charging system on the car should return that charge in a reasonable time. 

From an old thread of mine. This Battery was 11 years old and of nominal 60Ah capacity when new:

Curious as to how 'bad' the old Battery was I fully charged it (resting voltage after 72 hours was 12.87 volts) and then discharged it into a load drawing around 10 amps. The voltage instantly fell to 12.17 and fell consistently from then on. After two hours it was at 11.2 volts. I would estimate the capacity at around 18 to 25 Ah give or take but with a significant rise in internal resistance.

[anchorman]

According to the Yuasa manual somebody posted, you shouldn’t test a Battery until 2 hours after charging to let it settle.  

[anchorman]

14 hours ago, Dala said:

interesting information:

"Never connect the GR8 Battery Diagnostic Station to remote battery terminals; always connect the GR8 Battery Diagnostic Station directly to the vehicle battery"

resolved whether to connect the charger to the launch point

I don’t know what a launch point is but if you’re talking about the remote connector in the fuse box it doesn’t resolve a thing.  Connecting a fast charge machine with wheels because it’s so heavy isn’t the same as using a smart charger.  This isn’t hypothetical it’s fact, I’ve done it successfully many times.

[Hibird]

I am sure the GR8 Diagnostic station connection direct to the Battery would be essential for at least the following resons:

1) It is diagnosing the Battery NOT the vehicle wiring.

2) If high charging currents are in use which they will be then volt drop/vehicle fusing etc would be an issue which is really the same as item 1.

Browsing through these forums 12v Battery issues are always present and I would guess one of the top if not the very top problems suffered by owners.

I find it sad that Toyota have allowed this issue to tarnish a reputation of quality and reliability. I understand from other posts that the same issue is not isolated to Toyota but that does make it OK.

I understand a new Corolla is on the way or possibly arrived, does anyone know what if any changes have been made to overcome these issues ! lets hope something has.

 

 

 

[anchorman]

Are they issues?  They are on a forum which finds a few disgruntled owners but they sell tens of thousands of hybrids and the majority are trouble free.  

[Hibird]

1 minute ago, anchorman said:

Are they issues?  They are on a forum which finds a few disgruntled owners but they sell tens of thousands of hybrids and the majority are trouble free.  

But would it not be better if they were ALL trouble free !

[Yugguy1970]

2 minutes ago, Hibird said:

But would it not be better if they were ALL trouble free !

Yes, but forums always magnify any issues found as noone really posts about their car being trouble free.

Toyota are still second only to Lexus for reliability.

[Hibird]

7 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

Yes, but forums always magnify any issues found as noone really posts about their car being trouble free.

Toyota are still second only to Lexus for reliability.

Why would you want to be 2nd best !

[anchorman]

13 minutes ago, Hibird said:

But would it not be better if they were ALL trouble free !

Maybe but when they’ve added all the gubbins to cater for a minority of owners with “non standard operating conditions” would that be fair on the rest who are now paying another couple of hundred quid for a Battery and uprated equipment they don’t need?  If they doubled the Battery capacity and changed the design to accommodate it there’d still be somebody who’s first post was to say how disgusted they are because their Battery went flat after only a year of standing in the drive.

[Hibird]

42 minutes ago, anchorman said:

Maybe but when they’ve added all the gubbins to cater for a minority of owners with “non standard operating conditions” would that be fair on the rest who are now paying another couple of hundred quid for a battery and uprated equipment they don’t need?  If they doubled the battery capacity and changed the design to accommodate it there’d still be somebody who’s first post was to say how disgusted they are because their battery went flat after only a year of standing in the drive.

I am not sure what a "non standard operating condition" is I guess it means different to your own which I assume is "standard" perhaps you could expand. Perhaps it should be published in the vehicle handbook in greater detail. I think this would make it clear what Toyota expects of an owner. And putting it in ready mode for X number of minutes a week/month will not work if the Battery is flat after 3 days due to pevious damage.

I believe that many owners receive new vehicles with damaged batteries and I have seen first hand dealers jump starting brand new unregistered vehicles on their forcourt areas. This means the batteries have suffered damage before the owner has even received their new vehicle.

I am not sure adding "Gubbins" is the solution in all cases and clearly owner usage is a factor but we should strive for better and not settle for less.

Just for the record I have no Battery issues but feel for folk that have spent ££££s and deserve better.

 

 

 

 

[anchorman]

21 minutes ago, Hibird said:

I am not sure what a "non standard operating condition" is I guess it means different to your own which I assume is "standard" perhaps you could expand. Perhaps it should be published in the vehicle handbook in greater detail.

I believe that many owners receive new vehicles with damaged batteries and I have seen first hand dealers jump starting brand new unregistered vehicles on their forcourt areas. This means the batteries have suffered damage before the owner has even received their new vehicle.

I am not sure adding "Gubbins" is the solution in all cases and clearly owner usage is a factor but we should strive for better and not settle for less.

Just for the record I have no battery issues but feel for folk that have spent ££££s and deserve better.

 

 

 

 

What I mean by “non standard” Mike is that I’m fairly sure the Battery problem is exclusively low mileage cars, in fact stand more than run.  The problem highlighted itself during covid but any additional reports tend to be similar circumstances.  Cars that do the more normal mileage (used to be 10-12k but even above 8k seem to give no problems). I think it’s when you start to get really low like 3 or 4 that they start.   At what point do Toyota start to beef up the Battery for these conditions?  There’s plenty of info telling owners how to deal with it but there’s other issues like engine oil and tyres that degrade at such mileage.  Where do you stop?

[CPN]

On 1/14/2023 at 11:39 AM, Max_Headroom said:

I don't own a hybrid so can someone tell me if the 12v battery voltage can be shown on the info screen or elsewhere?

This is how Hybrid Assistant shows it before pressing the Start button...

 

[Graham47]

@CPN,

Colin, remind me, which OBD dongle are you using to monitor this ?
 

[CPN]

3 minutes ago, Graham47 said:

@CPN,

Colin, remind me, which OBD dongle are you using to monitor this ?
 

 

[Hibird]

5 minutes ago, anchorman said:

What I mean by “non standard” Mike is that I’m fairly sure the battery problem is exclusively low mileage cars, in fact stand more than run.  The problem highlighted itself during covid but any additional reports tend to be similar circumstances.  Cars that do the more normal mileage (used to be 10-12k but even above 8k seem to give no problems). I think it’s when you start to get really low like 3 or 4 that they start.   At what point do Toyota start to beef up the battery for these conditions?  There’s plenty of info telling owners how to deal with it but there’s other issues like engine oil and tyres that degrade at such mileage.  Where do you stop?

I do not disagree that increased use will overcome/lessen the issue and there is plenty of info available that would help mitigate the issue for owners but they will typically come across these when searching for a solution not at point of sale and by then the Battery is pobably toast. We must not forget that not all owners are tech wizards or want to be !

What I see as an issue and some others don't is that Battery issues are just that for some folk and we need happy owners not people with a boot full of chargers/jump starters and solar panels to get their £35K vehicle in to Ready Mode.

We need new vehicles to have good undamaged batteries at point of sale of course there will be many damaged batteries with happy owners as the vehicle is being used in a manner that will not expose the problem until one day it does !

The solution for current models is be smart and work around your situation the best you can but for future models lets have something better not carried over which can only be a good thing

 

 

 

[anchorman]

I’m not convinced they are damaged at the point of sale. It isn’t Toyotas first rodeo, they’re not going to walk into warranty issues.  Warranty was one of my jobs when I was in the motor industry and you avoid it not promote it.   

[Hibird]

People are having batteries replaced under warranty as can be seen on this forum so unless I am missing something that makes it a warranty issue despite you being unconvinced.

I will continue to hope for better for all not just myself and will continue to view the local dealer jump starting new cars with flat batteries.

I do not work in warranty but maybe I should !

 

[Gray86]

On 1/14/2023 at 5:49 PM, AisinW said:

CTEK is too expensive for what it offers.  Aldi and Lidl offer much better value and do the same thing with microcontroller and regulated current. £20 or less today in local Lidl. The fully charge reading is 12.6V or higher. 

You can remove D/C cut on fuse box when leaving it for 1 month in airport.  You do not need to crawl under the seat. 

Below is TSB from Toyota that dealership do in practice. It is from USA gov. Website

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10154807-9999.pdf

There is an update for fixing the EMERGENCY CALL standby that  is too long and deplete the battery. So ask dealership update this fix and probably you need new 12V battery. Once it is depleted below 12V the capacity drop below 50% even after you fully charge it. Sulphation damage is not reversible below 12V. 

Do the Lidl & Aldi chargers have the ability to recondition the Battery? If so, it’s great value 

[Dala]

drain 0.22V in 48 hours (2 days)
I've gotten used to it being normal with the Yaris Hybrid 😞

[AisinW]

4 hours ago, Gray86 said:

Do the Lidl & Aldi chargers have the ability to recondition the battery? If so, it’s great value 

Yes,  all charger recondition the Battery.  They all do pulse charging when it is below 10V. However,  all charge only revive to certain extent.   Once it is below 12V for too long,  the permanent damage often drop the capacity 50% or more.  

Just don't expect too much on those.  Keep it above 12V all the time and it will last 7y or more.  Let it drop below 12V for 1 or 2 days,  make it dead in the next few months.