12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[Dala]

data collection from a 20W panel

 

[RobertR]

On 2/17/2023 at 8:40 PM, Dala said:

same with me
drop 0.1V/day
 

To have any relevant value, you should measure the capacity of your 12V Battery also. Because if your Battery was over-discharged in the past (maybe at the dealer or during transport), the capacity of the Battery is probably not at 100%.

But nice data thou. I will put a small trickle charge when I will leave the car for a week or more. Just to be sure.

[Dala]

   

[Hibird]

No new 12v Battery issues that have caught my attention for a while now.

It looks like suggested solutions are outnumbering reported problems by some margin and things have improved, why is that ? Any thoughts !

Or have I missed something ?

 

[Roy124]

Very short period of change, but we are out of the Christmas shut down period, milder weather, lighter days, these will all contribute to more driving and lower 12v power drain.  

All contributory factors as well as better education. 

[Max_Headroom]

2 hours ago, Hibird said:

No new 12v battery issues that have caught my attention for a while now.

It looks like suggested solutions are outnumbering reported problems by some margin and things have improved, why is that ? Any thoughts !

Or have I missed something ?

 

People are reading this thread and using the methods posted in it  😉

[Max_Headroom]

38 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

Very short period of change, but we are out of the Christmas shut down period, milder weather, lighter days, these will all contribute to more driving and lower 12v power drain.  All contributory factors as well as better education. 

Also the end of Covid lockdown which probably caused most of the problems in this thread. 

[Hibird]

2 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

People are reading this thread and using the methods posted in it  😉

Maybe, but I think the suggested solutions have been discussed here for a long period of time during which time complaints were at least claimed to be high.

Could be the root cause if there was one has been addressed by numerous software updates that have been released. I don't think anyone really knows the full detail of what is included in those updates. I certainly don't !

Or maybe something good has happened with batteries  🙂

Anyway good to see happy people

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jasper.]

I had the XGG78 DCM reprogramming carried out last week when I had my service carried out by Listers Toyota but I've no idea what issues this is supposed to deal with ?

[Roy124]

On 2/17/2023 at 7:40 PM, Dala said:

same with me
drop 0.1V/day
 

Today is now 48 hours since the car was powered up.  The Battery voltage appeared to stabilise around one hour after switch off.  Over the following day the voltage has virtually flat lined and registered a drop of 0.06v which would equate to over 16 days per voltage drop.

It has been interesting looking at the voltage curve.  With the CTEK 5 the voltage was up at 15v rather than the programmed 14.7v.  When going to ready mode there is an instant drop to around 12.2v that immediately recovers to around 14.07v, within less than 2 minutes the voltage dropped to 12.82v.  14 minutes later there was a further boost to 14.12v before reverting to 12.82.  Again 18 minutes later we saw 14.48v before reverting to 12.82v

On switching off there is a very small drop of just 0.1v before recovering to the previous level.  

[anchorman]

I know some of you are into this Battery thing and in no way am I rubbishing the subject but I don’t what my Battery voltage is and I’m not prepared to even investigate.  There’s mass hysteria on some forums even from someone whose use of the car will never show a problem. My motto for this one is don’t worry until you’ve got something to worry about.   

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, anchorman said:

I know some of you are into this battery thing and in no way am I rubbishing the subject but I don’t what my battery voltage is and I’m not prepared to even investigate.  There’s mass hysteria on some forums even from someone whose use of the car will never show a problem. My motto for this one is don’t worry until you’ve got something to worry about.   

I don't disagree with what you say.  

I think what we are trying to do is provide hard facts to either support or refute the flat Battery issue.

In the worst case someone who has 'got away' with no issues might be rather flummoxed to be presented with a flat Battery for the first time in a wet and windy airport car park on return from holiday.

don’t worry until you’ve got something to worry about

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

 

[Dala]

1 hour ago, anchorman said:

I know some of you are into this battery thing and in no way am I rubbishing the subject but I don’t what my battery voltage is and I’m not prepared to even investigate.  There’s mass hysteria on some forums even from someone whose use of the car will never show a problem. My motto for this one is don’t worry until you’ve got something to worry about.   

I don't agree either.
I want to rely on my car whenever I need it.
Especially if it's a new car.
Getting into the car with the thought: will it start or not?
No.
This topic is excellent in that, as a driver, I can find out where the error is and how to eliminate this error.

[RobertR]

But we know where is the problem. The car itself has higher than usual consumption on standby and together with a bad Battery = problem.

The solution is to push your dealer to replace an old Battery with a new one. If you are out of warranty, buy a new Battery.

If you go away from the car for a long time, 2 or more weeks, you have several options. 1. disconnect the battery 2. hook up the trickle charger on the battery 3. buy a portable li-ion jump starter 4. if you know what you are doing, assemble a solar charger.

I personally think they supply some batches of cars with low-quality batteries and also batteries are over-discharging during the transport (that damaged battery).

At least, Toyotas dealers should ask a potential customer how much he will plan to drive, and if the dealer senses a very low mileage driver he should at least tell him the hybrid is maybe not the best car for him if he drives once a month 2miles to the grocery store.

But low you, data guys, keep it up. I'm planing to put my voltage datalogger too into the battery to see what's going on 🙂

[Max_Headroom]

Quote

My motto for this one is don’t worry until you’ve got something to worry about.   

Its a fair comment and when i get my hybrid i will not worry about the 12v Battery until its a few  years old as i know having read this thread i will be driving it often enough for it not to become an issue.

This thread is a great read for anyone who is unlikely to drive more than once a week as it warns those people they may have problems.

My view which is not popular with some here is if you are going to drive so infrequently the Battery issue may rear its head is don't buy a hybrid you are paying a lot of money for technology that is not going to benefit you and in fact is more likely going to do the opposite. 

 

 

[Roy124]

2 hours ago, RobertR said:

But we know where is the problem. The car itself has higher than usual consumption on standby and together with a bad battery = problem.

The solution is to push your dealer to replace an old battery with a new one. If you are out of warranty, buy a new battery.

If you go away from the car for a long time, 2 or more weeks, you have several options. 1. disconnect the battery 2. hook up the trickle charger on the battery 3. buy a portable li-ion jump starter 4. if you know what you are doing, assemble a solar charger.

I personally think they supply some batches of cars with low-quality batteries and also batteries are over-discharging during the transport (that damaged battery).

At least, Toyotas dealers should ask a potential customer how much he will plan to drive, and if the dealer senses a very low mileage driver he should at least tell him the hybrid is maybe not the best car for him if he drives once a month 2miles to the grocery store.

But low you, data guys, keep it up. I'm planing to put my voltage datalogger too into the battery to see what's going on 🙂

I agree in part. 

I don't think the batteries are inherently bad nor that Toyota alone has a problem. 

Provided you can document the Battery failure you should be able to get a warranty exchange.  I don't think there is much opportunity for transit failures as the journey is pretty swift.  The longest period is possibly at the dealer. 

Regarding the dealer matching the car to the buyer I agree in spades.  We had an excellent salesman for our first Toyota pre-Covid and a Battery change at 12 months.  For our second Toyota we were more knowledgeable.  It is obvious though from some who post here that they were sold the wrong model. 

[Roy124]

2 hours ago, Max_Headroom said:

My view which is not popular with some here is if you are going to drive so infrequently the battery issue may rear its head is don't buy a hybrid you are paying a lot of money for technology that is not going to benefit you and in fact is more likely going to do the opposite. 

As far as I am concerned, you are spot on.  Our perfect car would be a Yaris Cross PHEV. When one daughter returns to UK and our long distance trips drop to 2 or 3 in the year, an EV version. 

As it stands, at 1 000 miles a month including at least one 180 miles journey and 6 250 mile in a year, it has to be HV as there was no suitable PHEV. 

[Hibird]

15 hours ago, Max_Headroom said:

Its a fair comment and when i get my hybrid i will not worry about the 12v battery until its a few  years old as i know having read this thread i will be driving it often enough for it not to become an issue.

This thread is a great read for anyone who is unlikely to drive more than once a week as it warns those people they may have problems.

My view which is not popular with some here is if you are going to drive so infrequently the battery issue may rear its head is don't buy a hybrid you are paying a lot of money for technology that is not going to benefit you and in fact is more likely going to do the opposite. 

 

 

I do not give buying advice but the amount of recent Battery problems reported here are very low despite the numbers suggested by some. So don't be put off a great car by the infrequent user scare tactics.

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, Hibird said:

I do not give buying advice but the amount of recent battery problems reported here are very low despite the numbers suggested by some. So don't be put off a great car by the infrequent user scare tactics.

In today's money my Yaris Cross is twice as expensive as my first car, a Ford Anglia. I suggest the Yaris is far more than twice the value. 

Too many differences but here are just two.  The Yaris achieves double the mpg with an engine developing almost 3 times the power, 114bhp cf 39.

[Hibird]

5 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

In today's money my Yaris Cross is twice as expensive as my first car, a Ford Anglia. I suggest the Yaris is far more than twice the value. 

Too many differences but here are just two.  The Yaris achieves double the mpg with an engine developing almost 3 times the power, 114bhp cf 39.

I think that Ford Anglia was launched in 1959 way before my car ownership days. The same Year as 'Torchy' who was recently mentioned here was launched on us in his cardboard rocket.😉

Both cars and rockets have moved on by a quantum leap since then thank goodness.

 

 

 

[anchorman]

19 hours ago, Dala said:

I don't agree either.
I want to rely on my car whenever I need it.
Especially if it's a new car.
Getting into the car with the thought: will it start or not?
No.
This topic is excellent in that, as a driver, I can find out where the error is and how to eliminate this error.

He didn’t say he doesn’t agree, he said he doesn’t disagree.   There’s no need to be offended, I’m not rubbishing the thread as I clearly said, I’m just saying that I don’t and I don’t want to start worrying about the Battery.  When that day comes it’ll be gone.   We know the score for vulnerable cases and a cheap jump pack takes all the worry away.

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, anchorman said:

cheap jump pack takes all the worry away.

And that is the difference between not worrying and not worrying because you are prepared. 

[Roy124]

After 3 days without use my voltage drop is now down to 0.02v/day.  That demonstrates, as Cyker said, that the drain reduces over time.  At the rate I am now getting it shows that a good Battery will last at least a month, if not almost 2, and drop only 1 volt.

I am now satisfised that a check once a week or even a fortnight is all that is needed if the car is unused for any length or time (obviously only if you are at home with it).

It seems that the flat Battery during lockdown was enough to cause problems later on.  The only other thing I can't check without laying the car up for a long time is whether there is a rapid drop in voltage once it has reduced to X Volts.

[Hibird]

46 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

After 3 days without use my voltage drop is now down to 0.02v/day.  That demonstrates, as Cyker said, that the drain reduces over time.  At the rate I am now getting it shows that a good battery will last at least a month, if not almost 2, and drop only 1 volt.

I am now satisfised that a check once a week or even a fortnight is all that is needed if the car is unused for any length or time (obviously only if you are at home with it).

It seems that the flat battery during lockdown was enough to cause problems later on.  The only other thing I can't check without laying the car up for a long time is whether there is a rapid drop in voltage once it has reduced to X Volts.

Wet lead acid/AGM batteries have a self discharge rate of around 2%-8% per month (depending on your info source) regardless of connection to anything and should be linear after the initial surface charge has dissapated around 6hours. You probably new that but if not something to factor into any long term testing you may have planned.

Good numbers Roy well done, with some sensible conclusions so far.

[Graham47]

@Roy124it would be useful to measure if any of the ancillaries (EPB, folding mirrors etc.) significantly affect the measured voltage drop.