12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[anchorman]

9 minutes ago, Graham47 said:

@Roy124it would be useful to measure if any of the ancillaries (EPB, folding mirrors etc.) significantly affect the measured voltage drop.

I would have thought, things that are snoozing like radio, alarm etc have parasitic drain.  I think mirrors and EPB would be off altogether.  

[Dala]

55 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

After 3 days without use my voltage drop is now down to 0.02v/day.  That demonstrates, as Cyker said, that the drain reduces over time.  At the rate I am now getting it shows that a good battery will last at least a month, if not almost 2, and drop only 1 volt.

I am now satisfised that a check once a week or even a fortnight is all that is needed if the car is unused for any length or time (obviously only if you are at home with it).

It seems that the flat battery during lockdown was enough to cause problems later on.  The only other thing I can't check without laying the car up for a long time is whether there is a rapid drop in voltage once it has reduced to X Volts.

you have a better car Battery 🙂

 

[Tommy X]

Hello, I am awaiting delivery of a Yaris Cross Design and have followed this topic with interest, I would like to know if there is any reason why the jump start connection terminal in the fusebox cannot or should not be used for trickle charging the 12v Battery, some say it can be used others say it can't. I have a smart charger and it would be easier to use the jump start terminal rather than direct to the Battery located under the rear seat. Thanks  

[Graham47]

1 hour ago, anchorman said:

I would have thought, things that are snoozing like radio, alarm etc have parasitic drain.  I think mirrors and EPB would be off altogether.  

That’s what I’d like to confirm.  How much does the alarm drain ?
Also someone on an earlier post seemed to suggest that the EPB needs 12v to ‘hold’ the brakes on ?
I also think that folding mirrors don’t require 12v to hold IN, but would like to confirm.

[TonyHSD]

1 hour ago, Graham47 said:

That’s what I’d like to confirm.  How much does the alarm drain ?
Also someone on an earlier post seemed to suggest that the EPB needs 12v to ‘hold’ the brakes on ?
I also think that folding mirrors don’t require 12v to hold IN, but would like to confirm.

Non of these needs constant 12v Battery power, only when they operate. However if set in auto mode both they will keep draining your 12v Battery along with brake pump anytime you lock , unlock or open the drivers door respectively. 

[Dala]

1 hour ago, Graham47 said:

...How much does the alarm drain ?...

I have a Pandora Smart Pro security system installed. Consumption less than 7mA

[Roy124]

3 hours ago, Tommy X said:

Hello, I am awaiting delivery of a Yaris Cross Design and have followed this topic with interest, I would like to know if there is any reason why the jump start connection terminal in the fusebox cannot or should not be used for trickle charging the 12v battery, some say it can be used others say it can't. I have a smart charger and it would be easier to use the jump start terminal rather than direct to the battery located under the rear seat. Thanks  

Yes it can.  If you can't get at your Battery it is the easiest to access. Just a shame Toyota don't have that positive terminal as a separate shielded connection point. 

[Roy124]

During my car parked period the alarm was on, mirrors unfolded, doors unlocked, EPB on, and keys not isolated from the car.

[Dala]

It looks like an unlocked car draws less current 

I always lock the car - I can't help myself with this 😄

the alarm is activated only after the car is locked - the alarm therefore does not draw current when the car is unlocked

try to lock the car for the same amount of time
then compare drain

[Tommy X]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

Yes it can.  If you can't get at your battery it is the easiest to access. Just a shame Toyota don't have that positive terminal as a separate shielded connection point. 

Thanks Roy, I noticed a Y Cross in the showroom what looked like a charging lead running under the bonnet so I assume it was connected to the jumpstart terminal, I shall ask when I take delivery

[Cyker]

5 hours ago, Graham47 said:

That’s what I’d like to confirm.  How much does the alarm drain ?
Also someone on an earlier post seemed to suggest that the EPB needs 12v to ‘hold’ the brakes on ?
I also think that folding mirrors don’t require 12v to hold IN, but would like to confirm.

Just to confirm, the powered folding mirrors and electronic parking brake both use zero power except when activated.

They're basically electric motors that move the mirror or screw/unscrew the rear brake caliper between open or closed positions. Once they reach those positions, they stop drawing power.

As an aside, this is why it's safer to use the EPB when stopped for an extended period - If the car suddenly looses power, the brakes will stay engaged. If using the hydraulic brake hold on the other hand, they will release if power is lost!!

 

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, Dala said:

It looks like an unlocked car draws less current 

I always lock the car - I can't help myself with this 😄

the alarm is activated only after the car is locked - the alarm therefore does not draw current when the car is unlocked

try to lock the car for the same amount of time
then compare drain

An excellent point and very valid for the airport parking issue.  I don't routinely lock mine as it resides in a locked garage. 

Next time we have a planned quiet period I shall lock it and compare. 

[Roy124]

9 minutes ago, Cyker said:

As an aside, this is why it's safer to use the EPB when stopped for an extended period - If the car suddenly looses power, the brakes will stay engaged. If using the hydraulic brake hold on the other hand, they will release if power is lost!!

A good point except that Brake Hold drops out after 3 minutes and EPB takes over. 

[Cyker]

Aye, although it will warn you first and you can poke the brake pedal for another 3 minutes!

Usually if I'm stationary that long tho' I'll put it into Park (+AutoEPB) just to spare the retinas of the person behind me  

 

[anchorman]

3 hours ago, Tommy X said:

Thanks Roy, I noticed a Y Cross in the showroom what looked like a charging lead running under the bonnet so I assume it was connected to the jumpstart terminal, I shall ask when I take delivery

It does Bill. It’s very easy to use the fuse box start connection.   You can even close the bonnet.

[Max_Headroom]

On 2/23/2023 at 7:24 AM, Hibird said:

I do not give buying advice but the amount of recent battery problems reported here are very low despite the numbers suggested by some. So don't be put off a great car by the infrequent user scare tactics.

This is a small forum so  i wouldn't say reported problems are very low when you consider how many members who don't drive often are having problems,  people are using solar panels and smart chargers for peace of mind and to get round the problem its only the ones that drive frequently that are reporting no problems.

Toyota  should have used a bigger Battery in the first place its not the customers fault its too small to hold enough charge for several days if not driven regularly.

You say you don't give buying advice  but you actually do you are telling members to ignore "infrequent user scare tactics" i don't think anyone here is using  "scare tactics" to put people off buying we are trying to let members who don't drive often know there is a problem so they can look into it themselves and see if a hybrid will suit their needs, i am not sure why you think that isn't a good thing.

 

[RickyC]

8 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

Toyota  should have used a bigger battery in the first place its not the customers fault its too small to hold enough charge for several days if not driven regularly  i am not sure why you keep defending Toyota you are beginning to sound like a total fanboy.

I think that the real issue is not the Battery capacity but the time needed to charge it. If you're using the car once a week, driving for 30 minutes or less, you probabiy will no able to recover the charge lost during the other days when car stood parked.  So with a bigger capacity Battery I expect that you will simply experience the problem some week later.  A bigger capacity Battery can be instead useful, if you are a frequent driver,  when you need to leave the car parked for some week in an airport parking.

[Roy124]

Ricky, exactly, but it is not just driving once a week as you could still drive every day and deplete the Battery. 

In winter the 12v demand for lights, wipers, heaters etc might still create a deficit if you only drove a few minutes per day. In bad weather a half mile drive to the shops may not be unusual. 

[Max_Headroom]

17 minutes ago, RickyC said:

I think that the real issue is not the battery capacity but the time needed to charge it. If you're using the car once a week, driving for 30 minutes or less, you probabiy will no able to recover the charge lost during the other days when car stood parked.  So with a bigger capacity battery I expect that you will simply experience the problem some week later.  A bigger capacity battery can be instead useful, if you are a frequent driver,  when you need to leave the car parked for some week in an airport parking.

 

If having read everything about the 12v Battery issues you still want one then you are going to have to drive the car long enough on its only drive of the week to get the 12v Battery fully charged if you are not willing to do that you chose the wrong car and will continue to have issues unless you are willing to mess about with chargers.

 

BTW I took the whole fanboy part of my post out and it now reads - 

This is a small forum so  i wouldn't say reported problems are very low when you consider how many members who don't drive often are having problems,  people are using solar panels and smart chargers for peace of mind and to get round the problem its only the ones that drive frequently that are reporting no problems.

Toyota  should have used a bigger Battery in the first place its not the customers fault its too small to hold enough charge for several days if not driven regularly.

You say you don't give buying advice  but you actually do you are telling members to ignore "infrequent user scare tactics" i don't think anyone here is using  "scare tactics" to put people off buying we are trying to let members who don't drive often know there is a problem so they can look into it themselves and see if a hybrid will suit their needs, i am not sure why you think that isn't a good thing.

[Max_Headroom]

18 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

Ricky, exactly, but it is not just driving once a week as you could still drive every day and deplete the battery. 

In winter the 12v demand for lights, wipers, heaters etc might still create a deficit if you only drove a few minutes per day. In bad weather a half mile drive to the shops may not be unusual. 

If you buy the hybrid  knowing that is all you will be doing the novelty is soon going to wear off.

[Hibird]

3 hours ago, Max_Headroom said:

This is a small forum so  i wouldn't say reported problems are very low when you consider how many members who don't drive often are having problems,  people are using solar panels and smart chargers for peace of mind and to get round the problem its only the ones that drive frequently that are reporting no problems.

Toyota  should have used a bigger battery in the first place its not the customers fault its too small to hold enough charge for several days if not driven regularly.

You say you don't give buying advice  but you actually do you are telling members to ignore "infrequent user scare tactics" i don't think anyone here is using  "scare tactics" to put people off buying we are trying to let members who don't drive often know there is a problem so they can look into it themselves and see if a hybrid will suit their needs, i am not sure why you think that isn't a good thing.

 

Forums large or small always magnify problems, we often see folk pop up with a 'problem' never to be heard of again or give feedback on any advice given. We disagree on how much of a problem the 12v Battery is and I don't feel the need to engage further on that point 🙁

In my informed technical opinion bigger batteries are not the solution and could even make the problem worse especially for those who already have a problem. Different Battery chemistry could be a solution in the future but not for now.

I can only repeat I do not give buying advice but neither do I try to put people of buying what is a great car, I know you don't agree but you don't have too, it's ok.

And of course I agree that anyone buying any kind of car needs to make the best informed decision they can but surley that has alway been the case and not limited to a Toyota Yaris !    

 

                                                                                 

 

 

 

 

[Max_Headroom]

1 hour ago, Hibird said:

And of course I agree that anyone buying any kind of car needs to make the best informed decision they can but surley that has alway been the case and not limited to a Toyota Yaris

It has but a lot of people will read reviews and not dig too much further,  I have yet to see a review where they mention the 12v Battery and problems caused by low usage obviously because they only review the car when it's new, I guess it's going to be a catch 22 people will buy a hybrid find out their lack of driving causes the issue then they'll find places like this where they find they are not alone and there are solutions even though they seem a backwards step.

One thing that I hadn't thought of like EV's if you don't have off street parking you cannot use a charger so are going to have to rely on a solar charger which will if I remember right only maintain not charge the Battery and that of course is dependant on the weather.

 

[Roy124]

43 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

One thing that I hadn't thought of like EV's if you don't have off street parking you cannot use a charger so are going to have to rely on a solar charger which will if I remember right only maintain not charge the battery and that of course is dependant on the weather.

 

Good point. A jump starter pack will get you out of trouble, but possibly the Battery will have been cream..... 

 

[Hibird]

2 hours ago, Max_Headroom said:

It has but a lot of people will read reviews and not dig too much further,  I have yet to see a review where they mention the 12v battery and problems caused by low usage obviously because they only review the car when it's new, I guess it's going to be a catch 22 people will buy a hybrid find out their lack of driving causes the issue then they'll find places like this where they find they are not alone and there are solutions even though they seem a backwards step.

One thing that I hadn't thought of like EV's if you don't have off street parking you cannot use a charger so are going to have to rely on a solar charger which will if I remember right only maintain not charge the battery and that of course is dependant on the weather.

 

Most reviews I read on the Yaris were youtube wannabe's whinging about hard plastic and comparing the performance to a Ferrari so would be unlikley to uncover anything of real value to long term users.

I recall one review where the so called expert had spent so long reviewing the radio volume that the Battery was flattend and the AA or similar had to be called.

Solar power as you say relies on sun but also panel output, we can control one of those and possibly at least influence the other if there is a smart choice of parking location. Solar panels specifically targeted at car owners and a specific budget will just maintain but again there are choices that will achieve more.

There are yet other possibiities for the more dedicated & determined but come at a significant cost.

Some people will & are prepared to put in the time effort and learned knowledge to overcome problems. However for the once a week or 5 mins 3 times a week people I think there is a potential problem with any modern motor vehicle.

You can't please all of the people all of the time

 

[RickyC]

6 hours ago, Roy124 said:

Ricky, exactly, but it is not just driving once a week as you could still drive every day and deplete the battery. 

In winter the 12v demand for lights, wipers, heaters etc might still create a deficit if you only drove a few minutes per day. In bad weather a half mile drive to the shops may not be unusual. 

I agree.  Drive the car half an hour a week is just one example of a way to deplete the Battery.

Surely winter can make difficult to charge the Battery while driving.

But you've to consider that many people want just start the car and drive, like any other car, without thinking to what's under the bonnet or how Battery charge works.

If I need to use a CTEK or a solar charger to keep 12V efficient, there's something wrong, and I think it's the limited power sent to battery bat DC/DC converter compared to a traditional car alternator.