12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[CruxisCore]

1 hour ago, RonYarisX said:

I'm more mechanical engineer than electrical so who am I to criticise, but would it not have made more sense to have two batteries - one being a bog standard battery dedicated tostarting the car? The larger / main  battery can then drain as much as it wants, at least then you're almost 100% guranteed the engine will start thus feeding the larger battery. 

I guess technically, but it would probably add too much weight that they've gone rather long ways of purposefully reducing. Starting the car doesnt require almost anything from the 12v, mostly so that it can close some contactors. Which is why the zombie can basically be already a zombie and the car still starts until it no longer can do even that. A half dead Battery would stop cranking a regular starter motor long before that.

This feels like a sum of few things: crappy batteries being supplied (looking at you turkish battery), the DC-DC convertor not charging with high enough voltage at least for a CaCa Battery, the smart charging maybe not quite being smart enough, it doesn't seem to always kick in even if voltage would appear lower than comfort. The DC-DC convertor is a hardware thing, but the smart charging behavior could probably be altered with an update. 

I really hope my Yaris Cross comes with something other than the turkish Battery.

[RonYarisX]

Fingers crossed the French built Yaris Cross comes with a French Battery then...  🤣

( that's aimed at whoever it was on another thread criticising French cars as being crap )

[dannyboy413]

7 hours ago, CruxisCore said:

really hope my Yaris Cross comes with something other than the turkish battery.

Now that would be a delight! 

[Derek.w]

20 hours ago, anchorman said:

He said they could do away with the 12v battery.  

Not pratical to do away with all 12 volts system on a car like radio, all lights & various control systems.

[CPN]

44 minutes ago, dannyboy413 said:

Now that would be a delight! 

Groan.... 😉

[CPN]

Just a query to anyone who knows better than I (which is probably quite a lot of you...)

I'm guessing that this is not an AGM type Battery or am I wrong?

 

[Cyker]

I always wondered why they needed the 12v Battery when the traction Battery can power the whole 12v system via the DC-DC converters.

The only real reason the 12v Battery is there on EVs and hybrids is to power the high-voltage system contactors.

Originally I thought it was a necessary safety system, even mandatory, to have the HV system disconnected when the car's off, but since Hyundai and Tesla leave theirs connected under certain circumstances, e.g. Sentry mode with Teslas, then apparently that's not the case, so why not just leave it connected all the time and get rid of the 12v battery altogether?

Alternately, I also kinda like the idea of having a massive knife-switch that you have to pull to engage the HV system, so I can pull it while laughing manically yelling IT'S ALIVE! IT'S ALIIIVEEE! BWAHAHAHA!! every time I start the car. That's just me tho'.

 

[Cyker]

Yea, it's just a normal, albeit sealed, wet Battery from what we can tell.

[Mikw]

Well, to follow up my previous post from a few weeks ago, i left the car for 8 days in an airport car park, was obviously worried about how the 12v Battery would fare.

I'm delighted, and relieved, to report that the car "woke up" after it's 8 day rest and got me home flawlessly.

[anchorman]

9 hours ago, RonYarisX said:

Fingers crossed the French built Yaris Cross comes with a French battery then...  🤣

( that's aimed at whoever it was on another thread criticising French cars as being crap )

There’s a big difference between French cars and Japanese cars built in a French Factory.  The best batteries are Yuasa.  Somebody fitted one on here.  

[CruxisCore]

8 hours ago, CPN said:

Just a query to anyone who knows better than I (which is probably quite a lot of you...)

I'm guessing that this is not an AGM type battery or am I wrong?

 

How old is your car?

8 hours ago, Mikw said:

Well, to follow up my previous post from a few weeks ago, i left the car for 8 days in an airport car park, was obviously worried about how the 12v battery would fare.

I'm delighted, and relieved, to report that the car "woke up" after it's 8 day rest and got me home flawlessly.

Might still wanna check how the Battery voltage is doing so that you dont kill it after it survived 8 days of not driving.

[CruxisCore]

5 hours ago, anchorman said:

There’s a big difference between French cars and Japanese cars built in a French Factory.  The best batteries are Yuasa.  Somebody fitted one on here.  

Yeah, if I'm looking for a dependable Battery, there are only 2 options I consider personally. Yuasa and Varta. I've had good experiences with Bosch too but I only bought one cos it was the exact same Battery the car (Toyota Proace) had at the time and it was in stock when I needed it quickly.

[Dala]

10 hours ago, CPN said:

Just a query to anyone who knows better than I (which is probably quite a lot of you...)

I'm guessing that this is not an AGM type battery or am I wrong?

 

Turkish Battery.
Standard flooded CA-CA Battery.
I'm confused.
MUTLU labels its car batteries differently.
Someone made it, but I don't think MUTLU.
Look at the label and compare with original MUTLU batteries:

 

http://www.mutlu.ge/product-category/starter/automotive/

https://power.bigbadmole.com/en/akkumulyatory/avtomobilnye/mutlu.html

Toyota has these MUTLU batteries in cars?

  

Are they really original car batteries from MUTLU?
Isn't it a cheap copy from China or India?
Then it would make sense that car batteries are no good.

I have currently found 3 replacements for this Battery :

   

https://www.exidegroup.com/eu/en/battery/EB440

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/ybx5202.html

https://www.varta-automotive.com/en-be/products/varta-blue-dynamic/544-401-042

 

[RickyC]

25 minutes ago, Dala said:

Are they really original car batteries from MUTLU?

Isn't it a cheap copy from China or India?
Then it would make sense that car batteries are no good.

I doubt that a munufacturer like Toyota installs in factory a not original product.

Maybe are custom low quality Mutlu batteries, or Mutlu itself is rebadging anonymous China batteries wilt its label to be able to supply them to Toyota with a low price. 

[TonyHSD]

Cars always will have a secondary Battery either been 12v or 16v or more. These batteries not powering only the high voltage switch on and off but they actually feed the entire car electronics except traction motors and ac. 
Brake booster always takes the most energy, that’s why when step on the brake to power up the car via the start button you can see 12v Battery drops down to 11v or below and it’s normal. DCM, connected services, infotainment, hvac, gear shifter on some models, brakes, parking brake all runs on 12v Battery power. Small battery is all these car needs. The problem people have are usually as a result of faulty or poor quality batteries which can be the case indeed, flat battery prior to delivery of brand new cars , irregular use afterwards and only on very short trips or owners unknowingly set the cars in acc or ON modes when waiting or been around the cars which obviously it’s totally wrong to do with hybrids and they kill their batteries. 
Poor quality batteries can be a thing indeed, older cars had different brands and very rare they do get flat batteries, perhaps when left long time without use, weeks or months. We used to leave ours for weeks without use previously and never had any battery problems. All the problems about 12v 🪫 I learned from the forum. 

[CruxisCore]

I think it's simply a matter of Mutlu (and probably many other brands too) supplying less fancy LOOKING versions for OEM batteries. The pictures above are basically what you see on shelves and advertisements. They kinda have to look attractive too. Technically nobody is going to see the OEM Battery except for the mechanic who doesnt give a crap about it 😄

So yeah, basically I think that one is made to look good on the shelves and one is the same thing with less resources spent on making it look nice

EDIT: Just had my Aygo X serviced and was talking to my dealer who sold me the Yaris Cross still on the way. Of course this is the dealers answers so take it with a grain of salt. He said that he has had customers have issues with 12v batteries, but almost all of them were people who just dont drive much. Here in Finland the winter gets kinda cold, meaning that Battery takes charge even worse than regularly and then folks put on the seat heating, rear window heating, mirror heating, steering wheel heating, windscreen heating and cabin heating too, then just as things warm up 3km later they stop at the grocery store for 30 mins, everything cools down/Freezes again and the same thing going back 3km. Marketing speak or not but that definitely is the bane of any 12v here in Finland lol

That said, I do know from local facebook groups that people (a few CHRs come to mind recently) have had their 12vs die in toyota hybrids even with more sufficient driving. But there's definitely a chance that our cars here and UK cars are not the same. For example we have a 400W heater for heating the cabin cos of our cold winters, something that non-nordic countries dont have. So I guess teeeechnically they may have tried to alleviate problems due to our colder winter with higher charging voltage or the smart charger programmed to charge with a lower threshold or something? Same thing with cars in like Thailand and thereabouts have way stronger AC units than a regular european car.

But I guess almost certain that he was also painting a prettier picture when I asked him about it 😄

[cruiserOAP]

On 6/26/2023 at 11:30 AM, CruxisCore said:

Definitely not, it's pretty much all of these hybrids. The C-HR has a 45 Ah battery and is still just as effected so extra capacity indeed does not do wonders.

Funnily our tabloid had an article today, where it was listing vehicle reliability. It said Toyota had gone quite a bit down downwards on those statistics, but only due to 12v battery issues which have been rather frequent in Germany (article was based on german data). Also, it interestingly noted that Toyota Germany has taken the stance to switch out the 12v under warranty. Also an interesting tidbit was that starting from 2022 january or something, Toyota has changed the battery supplier. But I'm pretty sure we've also seen some newer cars having problems here too? But who knows if they still try to use the old stock away even if theres a new deal going.

This issue may turn out in the end to be due to the Battery supplier. Nissan had a 12v Battery problem which ruined the reliability rating of the Quashqai until they changed their supplier. Many owners suffered Battery failure, which of course was recorded as a complete breakdown in the reliability stats. One mistake like that can have a major effect on the reputation of a car maker.

[Derek.w]

Tesla was going to change from 12 volt system to a higher voltage control system but that still was under 48 volts as I rememder to reduce cross section on cables used.

Not sure how that effects 12 volts light as I remember a 24 volt system uses in the past a lot of 12 parts the only 24 volt items were the startermotor & generator.

[bathtub tom]

IIRC many commercial vehicles had 24v systems.

[Derek.w]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:14 PM, CPN said:

Just a query to anyone who knows better than I (which is probably quite a lot of you...)

I'm guessing that this is not an AGM type battery or am I wrong?

 

Its a calcium Battery EFB Battery (twin lid type)

[RickyC]

It's possible that the issue is mainly due to some low quality batches of batteries, but I wonder if also the Battery technology and the way is charged by DC-DC converter, can also cause a premature flat Battery.

I mean, even if Toyota has switched from Mutlu to Yuasa or Varta on new cars, if they still use Ca-Ca batteries and charge them at 13,5V probably soon also these batteries wlll run flat. 

 

[RickyC]

9 hours ago, Derek.w said:

Tesla was going to change from 12 volt system to a higher voltage control system but that still was under 48 volts as I rememder to reduce cross section on cables used.

Not sure how that effects 12 volts light as I remember a 24 volt system uses in the past a lot of 12 parts the only 24 volt items were the startermotor & generator.

Yes now they use 16V Litium batteries.

[Yugguy1970]

Yeah I definitely beleive there was a bad batch, or perhaps just a batch of not quite as good at holding charge.

[CPN]

On 6/27/2023 at 7:15 AM, CruxisCore said:

How old is your car?

Mine was built in July 2020.

Just did a full 24hr Recon charge and then let it settle for at least 6hrs and it shows...

Should be 13.2v for a fully charged wet cell but I'll take that at coming up to 3 years old... 🙂

[CruxisCore]

2 hours ago, CPN said:

Mine was built in July 2020.

Just did a full 24hr Recon charge and then let it settle for at least 6hrs and it shows...

Should be 13.2v for a fully charged wet cell but I'll take that at coming up to 3 years old... 🙂

Aight, mostly trying to fish around to see if these Mutlu batteries stop showing up on Yaris' newer than 2022 january.

Anyone with a 22 or 23 Yaris with a Mutlu? 😄