12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[CPN]

You and me both! lol!

[RickyC]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

(I still forget to turn the car off occasionally because it's just silent when you stop! It's only when I get out and it starts giving the beeps of shame to remind me it's still on!!  

 

2 hours ago, CPN said:

You and me both! lol!

And me too 😁

[Derek.w]

Ready mode just means it ready to drive regardless of engine running as it will move on just Battery power.

No ready mode then computers have located a problem like a very flat 12 volt system.

[Cyker]

Thanks guys, I'm glad it's not just me  

[ChrisWilko]

Morning all.

We've had our Yaris GR Sport since early February. It was flawless with no problems whatsoever until early this month, where I noticed the mirrors folding out very slowly and when I got in it it refused to go into ready mode. It was fairly obvious at this point that the 12v Battery was dead.

We do a lot of shorter journeys, with it being a small car, but our driving habits have not changed within the 8+ months we had been using it without issue.

I managed to source a Noco trickle charger and fully recharged the 12v Battery. It has been fine again until today, where the 12v Battery is now fully depleted again. That's just under 2.5 weeks from full charge to dead, and we sat running the car for ~20mins in a car park, last week.

Does this mean the 12v battery could be compromised? I'm pretty unimpressed that it can be fine for ~8 months and then suddenly start depleting at this alarming rate.

I've contacted our local Toyota dealership who were quick to offer help, but after 2 failed call backs from their service department I find myself looking for advice.

[jthspace]

I think the "recommended" advice on here is to leave the car in "Ready" mode for an hour and the engine may start two or three times in addition.

With the cooler mornings and change in weather conditions, maybe consider a Battery minder (Ctek or similar) and give it a trickle charge once a week?

As a matter of interest, we've just been away for 11 nights and the car was in an open carpark at Bristol Docks.  Started OK with no issues at all.

[Jimota]

On 10/20/2023 at 6:45 PM, Cyker said:

Yeah, "Ready mode" basically means the car is On.

On a normal car, it'd be synonymous with the engine started and running, but obviously on a hybrid that isn't such a useful indicator  

(I still forget to turn the car off occasionally because it's just silent when you stop! It's only when I get out and it starts giving the beeps of shame to remind me it's still on!!  

Did it this morning and yesterday too.  I wouldn’t have admitted it until I saw your post.  Don’t feel so bad now. 😀

[ChrisWilko]

23 minutes ago, jthspace said:

I think the "recommended" advice on here is to leave the car in "Ready" mode for an hour and the engine may start two or three times in addition.

With the cooler mornings and change in weather conditions, maybe consider a battery minder (Ctek or similar) and give it a trickle charge once a week?

As a matter of interest, we've just been away for 11 nights and the car was in an open carpark at Bristol Docks.  Started OK with no issues at all.

I'm assuming this was in response to my post, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I've got it plugged in at the moment, trickle charging.

My main concern is that we've had 8+ months of no issues, and now I have a dead Battery twice within 2.5 weeks.

The usage behavior of the car hasn't changed in any way, which sets off alarm bells in my head. The trips we are making are fundamentally the same as they were, the usage of the car is unchanged. 

[jthspace]

12 minutes ago, ChrisWilko said:

I'm assuming this was in response to my post, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I've got it plugged in at the moment, trickle charging.

My main concern is that we've had 8+ months of no issues, and now I have a dead battery twice within 2.5 weeks.

The usage behavior of the car hasn't changed in any way, which sets off alarm bells in my head. The trips we are making are fundamentally the same as they were, the usage of the car is unchanged. 

Sorry, should have selected "Quote" 🙄.  It does seem strange about the Battery going flat as its under a year old.  Hopefully the dealer will replace under warranty (fingers crossed). 

[ChrisWilko]

7 minutes ago, jthspace said:

Sorry, should have selected "Quote" 🙄.  It does seem strange about the battery going flat as its under a year old.  Hopefully the dealer will replace under warranty (fingers crossed). 

No worries, I was hesitant to jump in with a response and find out it wasn't meant for me. 😆

The fact it has been fine for a prolonged period of time and is now having issues is leading me to believe it's an issue.

I've contacted the dealer, but it's a sharply different experience once they have your money! 🙄

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, ChrisWilko said:

The usage behavior of the car hasn't changed in any way, which sets off alarm bells in my head

There might be very small changes that have affected the car but which don't seem significant to you.

[ChrisWilko]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

There might be very small changes that have affected the car but which don't seem significant to you.

That may very well be true, but surely 2 and a half weeks with mild use shouldn't be enough to drain the Battery from fully charged to unable to start?

If that is the case, the 8+ months it has worked fine is then completely polarising to the fact it now won't even last 3 weeks?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I find it hard to believe that such a drastic difference is down to such minor indifferences in usage.

[Roy124]

Chris,  I have no idea how it occurs but 2.5 mild use might be a cause.

The 12v drain will include the start spike, the aircon and wiper motor drain, lights, smart system and, but unlikely,  heated seats and steering wheel.

This is all covered by HV system charging via the DC-DC converter. 

Is the system designed such that the HV DC-DC charge covers the whole 12v requirement?  The 12v discharge gradient might be greater than the DC-DC  converter can replace until a number of minutes has passed.  Over a longer Ready time it will cover that initial loss.

There is also another less obvious discharge at the end of each drive (Ready Mode off).

The data module has to upload car data, the route,  fuel and time and the last position*.  This message is limited to 2,000 data points.  The message size for a short journey might be neatly the same as for a long one, but a series of short journeys might cause a larger drain overall. 

This is pure speculation but just shows how much things have changed. 

*Data logging used to show the route in MY T stopping in the middle of a long journey.   With the update the route is assumed to terminate at the end position.  From the data point end to the journey end is shown as a straight line.

[ChrisWilko]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

Chris,  I have no idea how it occurs but 2.5 mild use might be a cause.

The 12v drain will include the start spike, the aircon and wiper motor drain, lights, smart system and, but unlikely,  heated seats and steering wheel.

This is all covered by HV system charging via the DC-DC converter. 

Is the system designed such that the HV DC-DC charge covers the whole 12v requirement?  The 12v discharge gradient might be greater than the DC-DC  converter can replace until a number of minutes has passed.  Over a longer Ready time it will cover that initial loss.

There is also another less obvious discharge at the end of each drive (Ready Mode off).

The data module has to upload car data, the route,  fuel and time and the last position*.  This message is limited to 2,000 data points.  The message size for a short journey might be neatly the same as for a long one, but a series of short journeys might cause a larger drain overall. 

This is pure speculation but just shows how much things have changed. 

*Data logging used to show the route in MY T stopping in the middle of a long journey.   With the update the route is assumed to terminate at the end position.  From the data point end to the journey end is shown as a straight line.

Interesting. Appreciate the informative response, thank you.

The dealer got back to me today and have advised taking it on for a Battery check. I'll be doing that to rule out any fault.

It does seem like my behavior towards usage needs to change, I appreciate that now. I've sat in it this evening for an hour, in ready mode; I'll do this every week, going forward.

This is our first hybrid, so every day is a school day. The main thing that is throwing me is, that it has worked fine for the past 8 months.

[Dala]

If you buy a hybrid car and want to have a 12V car Battery OK, you must:
1/ drive long and often
2/ or recharge often
Smart charging does not guarantee a 100% charge of the car Battery before parking the car for several days.
Jump start is only for quick help
it must not become a regular solution to a problem
For hybrid car users, the best solution is the 1+2 combination
If I park the car for several days - I automatically connect the charger

[Max_Headroom]

On 10/25/2023 at 10:17 PM, Dala said:

If you buy a hybrid car and want to have a 12V car battery OK, you must:
1/ drive long and often
2/ or recharge often
 

Sit in the car in ready mode if you cannot do #1 above.

I will be buying one of these when i get mine - 

 

 

[Dala]

the cigarette volt meter is excellent for understanding how smart charging works while driving
charging during the day is 14.4V only if the starting voltage is lower than 12.2V
if the voltage at start is higher than 12.2V, the Battery is only maintained at a value of approx. 12.8V during the day
overnight driving always 14.4V (headlights on)

I measured these values on my car

[Max_Headroom]

Thanks Dala, do you have a link for that meter.

Is there a reading when you first turn on that indicates the voltage is getting dangerously low and you need to go for a long drive or do the "Ready" thing?

[Dala]

58 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

Thanks Dala, do you have a link for that meter.

Is there a reading when you first turn on that indicates the voltage is getting dangerously low and you need to go for a long drive or do the "Ready" thing?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003842791184.html

I bought this USB voltage meter to know when "smart charging" is activated while driving. This USB meter can also test the Battery in "accessory" and "ignition on" mode. 

   

 

When the USB meter shows a voltage of approx. 12.8V - 13,0V during the day ( without turning on the headlights )- the system has evaluated that the car Battery is fine and does not need to be recharged.

[Dala]

I found an interesting solution to this problem:

https://frenchman-energy.eu/en/VOTRONIC-3321-VCC-1212-20-C-12V-to-12V-20A-B2B-charging-converter-booster/3321

original manufacturer's website in German:

https://www.votronic.de/lade-wandler-b-2-b/baureihe-vcc-ausfuehrung-a/

manual :

https://www.votronic.de/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/3321_d.pdf

all that's left is to find someone to wire it up correctly 😄

[Mooly]

It looks to be a simple boost convertor accepting input voltages from 10.5 to 16 volts from one 12 volt Battery and using that to deliver a suitable charging voltage/current profile to recharge another 12 volt Battery.

Manual in English

Just doodling... 

Could a small 12 volt 7.2 Ah S.L.A. Battery be permanently added like this. These are the knid used in alarm panels and the like. Diode prevents any discharge of the S.L.A. and the 2.2 ohm allows trickle charge of the S.L.A. whenever the main battery is charging. If the charge voltage is 14.4 v and the diode is a Schottky type (a low forward volt drop) then the S.L.A. should see around 13.8 to 14 volts which is fine whenever the main battery is charging.

When you have an issue with a flat battery the switch allows the S.L.A. to be added in parallel.

It is just a doodle IT IS NOT A WORKED EXAMPLE and any such modifications would need to be fused and could/would most likely invalidate your insurance if there was a problem.

 

 

     

[Max_Headroom]

Quote

I found an interesting solution to this problem:

Interesting but we shouldn't have to be looking for ways to stop a £25,000+ new car from letting us down.

The bottom line as has been stated many times in the 63 pages here -

Drive the car regularly and you should never have a problem with the 12v Battery.

If you dont drive often sit in the car in ready mode in the supermarket car park or outside your house  this will charge the 12v Battery.

If you dont  intend to drive the car for several days at a time either use a smart charger (if you have off street parking) or use a solar charger, if you dont want to use either of these get a small jump starter pack so you will never be stranded.

If you dont drive often and dont want 12v Battery anxiety  dont buy a hybrid  😉

 

 

[Dala]

Interesting information from the converter manufacturer:

https://www.votronic.de/lade-wandler-b-2-b/

... the on-board Battery is not fully charged even if you drive for a long time...

It is especially recommended for vehicles with the Euro 6 standard. 

Losses caused by..... voltage fluctuations.... ( Euro 6 ) are compensated....

[MCatPG]

18 hours ago, Dala said:

Interesting information from the converter manufacturer:

https://www.votronic.de/lade-wandler-b-2-b/

... the on-board battery is not fully charged even if you drive for a long time...

It is especially recommended for vehicles with the Euro 6 standard. 

Losses caused by..... voltage fluctuations.... ( Euro 6 ) are compensated....

Very interesting. Off topic, it isn't just motor caravans that have this problem. On our boat we have a 6kW diesel generator and a Victron Charger/Inverter programmed to charge correctly our AGM House batteries (4 x 255aH x 12V = 12.24kWh of stored energy). Despite this setup complying with all the relevant standards the House batteries never reach float SoC on the generator - I can run the darn thing for hours and it never gets past absorption - with the result that the generator's engine and exhaust system get carbonised. I know other boats have the same problem. Thanks for posting this link.

[anchorman]

I’ve always had an open mind about this subject but a close friend bough his Cross new in April and this week the Battery failed.  He uses it on a daily basis and he knows not to abuse it.   It not only failed but the 100amp jump pack wouldn’t start it so he had to get it up to his big charger with booster facility.  I’ve heard this many times but never witnessed it.  The dealer told him they couldn’t help and they’re right, you have breakdown assistance for that.  The trouble with fighting the dealer for a new Battery is they want it for two days and if you charge a Battery overnight it will invariably test ok.  Even if it doesn’t you’re just going to get another Mutla and my opinion of these things has gone right down the plug hole.   We fitted a Yuasa with almost double the capacity and it has completely cured the ones I’ve done in the past.  Let’s hope future generations of Yaris and Cross get a decent battery because it has to stop.  I originally thought normal every day use would prevent problems but it doesn’t.