12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[FROSTYBALLS]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Eves said:

Unfortunately he had a long spell in hospital in May/June. I had to call the AA 3 times for a start due to 12V battery issue, eventually contacting dealer who charged it fully

The long stay in hospital in May/June could be up to 8 weeks, and if the car wasn't driven in that period, the Battery has probably been damaged. Probably not a warranty issue, as the lack of use during this period is the culprit, and subsequent use since is neither here nor there. At the end of the day, would have thought the issue will be solved by a new Battery.

Nowadays it isn't just Toyotas that will be affected by this type of scenario.

[Rhymes with Paris]

Aye, even though my car is not a hybrid, the 12v (only)battery died during a spell in hospital in march this year.

The weather turned cold and snowy, and the car was stood for around 20 days.

It's a bit of an unfortunate double whammy really, the being stuck in hospital and a Battery dieing on top of that.

It's handy if someone can start the car, and even drive it a while,if insured and trusted, but if no one can do that,it meant for me a new yuasa.

 

 

[Gren]

Would it be worth considering keeping a Battery conditioning charger connected when not is use for a period?  

However in my YC that would mean keeping the lid of the fusebox open as the +ve terminal is inside, and I'd be concerned about water getting in.  Does anyone else leave a charger connected for a long time?

[Cyker]

It seems newer cars are increasingly more susceptible to the 12v Battery draining prematurely, and I agree that the manufacturers really need to do something about it - It's ridiculous that I could leave my crappy old Fiesta for months without an issue but people are having dead 12vs after a week.

But the owners need to take some responsibility too - I remember one poster who was annoyed their car was unusable after they came back from holiday, but what they'd done is bought the car then left it parked up and immediately gone on holiday, so the car had probably been sat in a holding area for ages during the pandemic before being shipped here, then sat with the dealer for a few days while they (didn't) PDI it, then taken home and left for another 3 weeks - The poor Battery didn't have a chance!

The first thing I did with mine is take it on a 2 hour hoon, as I do whenever I get a new car (Just to get a feel for it you understand    ), and I use it regularly for work and it's been fine after being left for 2 weeks, and once I left the sidelights on all day and despite getting worried when I saw this when returning to the car, it was a total non-issue.

... That said I have recently bought a Noco GB20 from Halfords with my Toyota Owners Club Halfords Discount card </shill>. Just in case someone else that isn't me has a flat Battery.    

 

[Mojo1010]

1 hour ago, Gren said:

Would it be worth considering keeping a battery conditioning charger connected when not is use for a period?  

However in my YC that would mean keeping the lid of the fusebox open as the +ve terminal is inside, and I'd be concerned about water getting in.  Does anyone else leave a charger connected for a long time?

There are some members that put some connectors directly onto the Battery under the rear seat, trial the cables out for conditioning. 

[Derek.w]

Today after 3 short trips I decided to connect my ctek charger to the car as rain is forcast for the next few days but after lunch I was back on the road unexpected long drive.

My connectors are directly to the Battery via its own independent fuse thats also 2 connectors via the same fuse one for ctek the other is for a solar panel or any other kit I want to connect.

[anchorman]

I was a bit sceptical about tales of flat batteries on cars in normal use but my mate definitely had a Mutley (Mutla) Battery fail overnight for no reason.  I think the Turks should stick to sickly chocolate fillings.    Toyotas warranty bill will be out of the roof with this issue and they will stop using them when they can identify a supplier that will provide a modestly reliable Battery at a Turkish price but for now, just get a Yuasa Battery and end your problems.  If you go via the warranty channels, you’ll lose your car for two days while they charge it overnight (most batteries will test ok overnight even if they are shot) and then even if it fails the test, you’ll get a new Mutley and start again.

[Jasper.]

Will fitting the Yuasa Battery yourself affect the car's warranty in any way ?

[anchorman]

3 minutes ago, Jasper. said:

Will fitting the Yuasa battery yourself affect the car's warranty in any way ?

It’ll improve it Jasp.   It’s the Battery Yuasa recommends and they supply all Japanese built Toyotas so I think they’d have a hard time with that IF they ever knew it was fitted.  

[ChrisWilko]

On 10/25/2023 at 11:56 AM, ChrisWilko said:

Morning all.

We've had our Yaris GR Sport since early February. It was flawless with no problems whatsoever until early this month, where I noticed the mirrors folding out very slowly and when I got in it it refused to go into ready mode. It was fairly obvious at this point that the 12v battery was dead.

We do a lot of shorter journeys, with it being a small car, but our driving habits have not changed within the 8+ months we had been using it without issue.

I managed to source a Noco trickle charger and fully recharged the 12v battery. It has been fine again until today, where the 12v battery is now fully depleted again. That's just under 2.5 weeks from full charge to dead, and we sat running the car for ~20mins in a car park, last week.

Does this mean the 12v battery could be compromised? I'm pretty unimpressed that it can be fine for ~8 months and then suddenly start depleting at this alarming rate.

I've contacted our local Toyota dealership who were quick to offer help, but after 2 failed call backs from their service department I find myself looking for advice.

Further to the above, I've been doing the 1hr running charge on ours. 

I also picked up a 12v adaptor that shows the 12v voltage. It was on 14.2 when we got home yesterday afternoon, so perfectly within limits.

The wife went out to it this morning and it's under 11v (lowest measurement) and won't start.

There must be something malfunctioning or not switching off, and draining the Battery. I've got a Dashcam wired to ignition live, but I've had that out of the car and checked it; if it was running then it would have recordings on the SD, but it doesn't. It switched off as it should. No internal lights on, as the car is visible from our door cam.

Moving house at the moment, so I've not had chance to get it booked in. Not what I need at the moment, trying to sort out a million and one other things. 🤦 

[MCatPG]

I expect this thread (Yaris Cross - consistently flat 12v battery) will be merged with the big 12V Battery thread, where the following comment has been made by me and others many times, but just in case anyone reads about this issue here and doesn't find the big thread....

The number of miles you do each week or each year is irrelevant.

What matters is the number of hours each week during which the car is in READY mode and the shift is in DRIVE. During these hours the car can be stationery (with HOLD selected) or in motion, it makes no difference.

Here is the reason, for anyone is isn't up to speed on all this yet. The 12V Battery is not charged in the conventional way by an alternator on the engine. It is charged using current from the high voltage traction Battery, which in turn is charged by the engine, which will start and run if you are charging while the vehicle is stationary. But the on-board charging will only happen while the car is in READY + DRIVE. That's the way the system has been designed and you have to live with it.

Alternatively the 12V battery can be charged by an external charger.

When does the 12V battery need to be charged, and how long for? It is impossible for the owner to know this unless they buy a voltmeter, as pointed out by several members, notably @Dala. 

I think the manufacturers of cars with this sort of system should do 3 things. They should design a warning to show on the instrument display when the 12V battery needs to be charged, they should provide a means of attaching an external charger without having leads trapped in doors or windows or under bonnets, and they should tell buyers about the need to keep the 12V battery at an acceptable SoC. At the moment the entire system including the design of the car and the information given to customers is set up to fail.

[Cowgirl]

My 12v Battery failed its health check at its first service, when I asked about it they said I hadn’t done enough miles (I had approximately 7000). My response was driving for 2 hours a day not enough?

They had no answer to that!

[Gren]

12 hours ago, Derek.w said:

My connectors are directly to the battery via its own independent fuse thats also 2 connectors via the same fuse one for ctek the other is for a solar panel or any other kit I want to connect.

Thanks Derek, that's a good idea, I might try to fit a fused always-live cigarette lighter socket directly to the Battery to use for the charger or solar panel.  Sorry, I'm new to the YC, how do I access the Battery and which side is it on?

[Max_Headroom]

1 hour ago, ChrisWilko said:

Further to the above, I've been doing the 1hr running charge on ours. 

Could you tell us exactly how much you use the car every week.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Similar topics merged

[Mooly]

2 hours ago, ChrisWilko said:

It was on 14.2 when we got home yesterday afternoon, so perfectly within limits.

So we assume it was fully charged although we have no idea what the actual capacity vs the rated capacity is.

2 hours ago, ChrisWilko said:

The wife went out to it this morning and it's under 11v (lowest measurement) and won't start.

So now totally discharged over say 18 hours. What is the rated capacity of these 'smaller' batteries? I recall around 36Ah give or take. If your Battery were at that capacity then you would have to be pulling a couple of amps for those 18 hours and that is not insubstantial. It would generate a lot of heat if something were drawing current.     

2 hours ago, ChrisWilko said:

There must be something malfunctioning or not switching off, and draining the battery.

 I think think the most likely scenario is just that the normal lowish (but still excessive in the scheme of things) background current draw has caused the Battery to deteriorate over time. Something like your Dashcam might be contributing to this because even when 'off' it may still have a quiescent current draw. Only way to know is to measure it.

It doesn't need much on a 24/7 basis to kill a Battery. The battery technology used (lead acid type that is a couple of century's old) is not suitable for this type of use.

 

[Cyker]

4 hours ago, Jasper. said:

Will fitting the Yuasa battery yourself affect the car's warranty in any way ?

It shouldn't - It's a standard consumable part and is the one specced for the car. I don't know why Toyota chose such a random make for their factory batteries as they usually favour decent brands like Yuasa for their batteries.

The Yuasa  rated for the Yaris Mk4 (Model HSB202) even has a higher capacity rating despite being the same size (45Ah vs 35 IIRC). IMHO it's what they should have fitted in the first place (Well, strictly speaking they should have fitted a deep-cycle Battery like the ones we use at work for backup power supplies, instead of regular starter batteries that can't be drained below 50% without degrading, but that's a gripe for a different thread  )

 

2 hours ago, Gren said:

Thanks Derek, that's a good idea, I might try to fit a fused always-live cigarette lighter socket directly to the battery to use for the charger or solar panel.  Sorry, I'm new to the YC, how do I access the battery and which side is it on?

It should be on the right-hand side (As you're sitting on it) of the rear passenger bench. You'll see a removable panel on the seat base you can unscrew to get at it.

If you see a panel with no screws, that's probably the hybrid Battery filter and you're looking on the wrong side  

[ChrisWilko]

5 hours ago, Max_Headroom said:

Could you tell us exactly how much you use the car every week.

The wife drives it 2 miles to work and 2 miles back, four times a week (8 trips in total).

It then gets a 4 mile round trip to do food shopping, once a week.

Other trips are usually short hops here and there, usually 1-5 miles.

I sit in it and run it for 1hr, once a week.

[ChrisWilko]

4 hours ago, Mooly said:

So we assume it was fully charged although we have no idea what the actual capacity vs the rated capacity is.

So now totally discharged over say 18 hours. What is the rated capacity of these 'smaller' batteries? I recall around 36Ah give or take. If your battery were at that capacity then you would have to be pulling a couple of amps for those 18 hours and that is not insubstantial. It would generate a lot of heat if something were drawing current.     

 I think think the most likely scenario is just that the normal lowish (but still excessive in the scheme of things) background current draw has caused the battery to deteriorate over time. Something like your dashcam might be contributing to this because even when 'off' it may still have a quiescent current draw. Only way to know is to measure it.

It doesn't need much on a 24/7 basis to kill a battery. The battery technology used (lead acid type that is a couple of century's old) is not suitable for this type of use.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure about the rated capacity to be honest.

I can't see why this 12v adapter wouldn't be providing even a mildly accurate reading - not that disparate anyway!

I'm baffled what would drain it to unstartable in such a short period of time.

I guess I need to get it booked in.

[Derek.w]

12 hours ago, ChrisWilko said:

Further to the above, I've been doing the 1hr running charge on ours. 

I also picked up a 12v adaptor that shows the 12v voltage. It was on 14.2 when we got home yesterday afternoon, so perfectly within limits.

The wife went out to it this morning and it's under 11v (lowest measurement) and won't start.

There must be something malfunctioning or not switching off, and draining the battery. I've got a dashcam wired to ignition live, but I've had that out of the car and checked it; if it was running then it would have recordings on the SD, but it doesn't. It switched off as it should. No internal lights on, as the car is visible from our door cam.

Moving house at the moment, so I've not had chance to get it booked in. Not what I need at the moment, trying to sort out a million and one other things. 🤦 

A 14.2 voltage is showing its charging & not that it fully charged fully charged it will read 12.7 or 12.8 volts.( Thats the voltage when the charger has now switched off & Battery starts to drain.)

[Derek.w]

On 11/2/2023 at 11:03 PM, anchorman said:

This is it

 

 

Thats the one I fitted to my Yaris in May/22

[Derek.w]

Location under the rear bench seat you can access it from the front of the seat without removing the bench cushions.

[Cyker]

2 hours ago, ChrisWilko said:

Yeah, I'm not sure about the rated capacity to be honest.

I can't see why this 12v adapter wouldn't be providing even a mildly accurate reading - not that disparate anyway!

I'm baffled what would drain it to unstartable in such a short period of time.

I guess I need to get it booked in.

It may be the Battery has just degraded too much - One thing about the starter-type of lead acid batteries used in the majority of cars is they need to be kept as close to 100% charge as possible for as long as possible; As soon as they're at a lower charge than that they start to degrade, and if they are discharged below 50% they loose significant capacity.

A lot of us suspect the cars have been left in e.g. holding areas and allowed to discharge to zero or near zero too often before they get to the dealer, and also the 12v batteries seem like cheap ones rather than good quality ones. Those things combined would explain why the new Yaris seems so prone to 12v Battery discharge.

 

[Mooly]

10 hours ago, ChrisWilko said:

I'm baffled what would drain it to unstartable in such a short period of time.

I suspect the cause is a lowish constant current draw that causes Battery deterioration.

New Battery, 100% capacity and you take 10% out of it by leaving it for a couple of days. You drive for an hour and it is back to 99%. You leave it a day and its down to 97%. A short run and its back at 98% and so on. Its a slow but constant decline day after day.

This type of Battery would need a prolonged float charge to bring it back to 100% but that would only work provided the battery was never allowed to reach a low state of charge.

Once the charge is down to the 70% or less region (and has been left like this for a long time) you are into permanent damage and a loss of capacity that can never be recovered.

 

7 hours ago, Cyker said:

A lot of us suspect the cars have been left in e.g. holding areas and allowed to discharge to zero or near zero too often before they get to the dealer

This has long been suspected and I would go as far as to say it would be worthwhile for any new owner (new car just delivered) to do a real world discharge test on the battery to make sure it appears to have its rated capacity.

I appreciate that is not easy for most owners as it would require a known load (an electrical consumer) being run and monitoring the battery voltage. For example an old single conventional headlight bulb of 55 watt rating would draw just over 4.5 amps and run for around 7 hours before a 35Ah battery was fully discharged. You shouldn't go that far in a test but leaving something like that for 3 or 4 hours should not see the loaded battery voltage fall below around 12.1 volts.

If the battery on a new car can not do this then its duff from day #1

Having done a test like this the battery should then be fully charged back to 100%

 

 

[anchorman]

It’s all well and good knowing what might cause it and what tests can be done to substantiate Battery health but 99.9% of owners just want to own and drive the thing when they want to.  This is a similar situation to the owners of diesel cars feeling obliged to keep driving if their cars have started a regen before they reach home to avoid dilution problems.  It’s not fair to expect them to go to extraordinary lengths in order to keep out of trouble.  We know the system is good because it works well and has done for years on other models so if the calcs say the Battery is of suitable capacity then the Battery needs to be of suitable quality.  It isn’t fair to expect the owner to give up the car for two days of testing that might result in another tat battery, they need something that will be up to the job.   I’ve got enough trusted evidence now on a number of cars that demonstrate that owners are not under using their cars when this happens and the battery just drops off the edge for no apparent reason.  I can get Yuasa 5000 (5 year warranty) for £83 all in and I’ve fitted that many I can do it in about 15 minutes which I do for nothing for my mates but is it fair they do this at their own expense.  I’m never ever quick to blame the manufacturer and I was one that even in the face of numerous complaints, kept an open mind about these issues (and if I’m honest, suspected misuse) but I don’t any more, I lay the blame on these Turkish batteries.  Come on Toyota, take responsibility.