Crunch time: I need to order a new company car!

[Cyker]

TBH I think it does - As someone who's been through 3 generations of Yaris, I can honestly say there was a noticeable drop in build quality between the japanese-made ones and when they started making them in France...

My old Mk1 diesel was made in Japan and it was put together noticeably better, with tighter tolerances, no weird squeaks and nothing out of place even after 15 years. My Mk2 by comparison had gigantic panel gaps everywhere, the dash top was very noticeably warped in the middle, the speaker grilles were loose and lots of things were noticeably more loosey goosey due to looser tolerances.

The Mk4 I have now continues the thing with the panel gaps, with some gaps a bit on the large side tho' not as bad as the Mk2, and some gaps not being absolutely parallel between the wings and doors, the bonnet strut doesn't line up properly with the hole so it's a bit of a faff to get it in and out etc., although admittedly I've not seen the JDM Mk4s or the GR Yaris up close for comparison.

 

Re. styling, I hadn't really considered it but now that it's been mentioned I get what you mean about it being muscle car-esque  .

I must admit I've never been a muscle car person tho' - I like sleek pointy things that look fast - Esprit,  F40, Aventador, XJ220, Celica, GTO, that sort of thing are more my thing  

 

[Nick72]

Thanks folks for the useful input here and all of the debate. I think the conclusion is, for my circumstances and requirements, there isn't a good EV choice. 

The debate seems to be around 'when' EV ranges will be adequate and adequate for who, and the associated affordability. 

My view is, and selfishly from my own needs, it is probably another 2 or 3 years away before I see an EV SUV option alongside the PHEV options. 

That leaves PHEVs, and in my case because I get 33% off through low BiK tax, is preferred to purely ICE vehicles. I've looked at quite a few alternatives to the RAV4 PHEV and owned one previously from another manufacturer. None have really captured my attention and make for a good match to my needs apart from the RAV4 PHEV GR Sport so it looks like one of those from August for 3 years unless something special pops out out of the woodwork in the coming months.  

[Nick72]

2 minutes ago, Cyker said:

TBH I think it does - As someone who's been through 3 generations of Yaris, I can honestly say there was a noticeable drop in build quality between the japanese-made ones and when they started making them in France...

My old Mk1 diesel was made in Japan and it was put together noticeably better, with tighter tolerances, no weird squeaks and nothing out of place even after 15 years. My Mk2 by comparison had gigantic panel gaps everywhere, the dash top was very noticeably warped in the middle, the speaker grilles were loose and lots of things were noticeably more loosey goosey due to looser tolerances.

The Mk4 I have now continues the thing with the panel gaps, with some gaps a bit on the large side tho' not as bad as the Mk2, and some gaps not being absolutely parallel between the wings and doors, the bonnet strut doesn't line up properly with the hole so it's a bit of a faff to get it in and out etc., although admittedly I've not seen the JDM Mk4s or the GR Yaris up close for comparison.

I think you're right, there is variability between manufacturing locations even though its the same company with common training, processes, tools, and automation.  I've seen this in aerospace. 

Clearly though, Volvo think they've got it sorted in China. 

For me it's a preference to avoid Chinese produced goods not because of doubts on quality but because we are now dependent on a strategic competitor which doesn't quite feel right. Still, a preference rather than a rule and I've still got lots of Chinese produced office kit, not trying to sound too hypocritical 😂.

[Cyker]

With EV, I think you're in the same boat as me - Waiting for Battery tech and infrastructure to catch up to where it needs to be, to create something I actually want to get; I've waited about 10 years and suspect I'll be waiting another 10 at the current rate of progress...

TBH I'm still hoping driving is still a thing in 10 years time!!

[Nick72]

10 minutes ago, Cyker said:

With EV, I think you're in the same boat as me - Waiting for battery tech and infrastructure to catch up to where it needs to be, to create something I actually want to get; I've waited about 10 years and suspect I'll be waiting another 10 at the current rate of progress...

TBH I'm still hoping driving is still a thing in 10 years time!!

Well the robo taxi may be picking us up and driving us around for a monthly service fee 😅. I'm not looking forward to that if it ever happens.  That's probably another debate.

[Nick72]

4 hours ago, Mike2222 said:

 - your original post:

 

As mentioned earlier, I'm not angry, but this is what I have an issue with - to a naive forumite looking for advice/education, your statements could be very misleading, and  further propogate mistrust in BEVs, because they don't hold true to the real world. 

 

You suggest you are entertaining discussion/opinion, but simultaneously are purporting that the information you bring to the conversation is sacrosanct, and your justification for this is your education. However, if your degrees or subsequent professional experience were actually relevant in this field then it is genuinely surprising that you would be asking our layperson opinions, because your educational contemporaries +/- likely social contacts from working in the field would be able to give you far more explicit/detailed analysis of the current state of battery and vehicle manufacturering. Instead, you make seemingly baseless estimations of a real world translation of manufacturers' promotional materials (your x0.7 metric for worst case scenario winter motorway driving is about as good as licking your finger, sticking it out the window of a moving car and telling me it's windy outside - it might be true in certain circumstances but it's nonsense to base meaningful decisions on). By your own admission, you have never lived with a BEV, and your info comes from the same press releases I have read, or from chats to neighbours/friends who have BEVs, or from Internet 'pub chats' [forums]. Hardly peer-reviewed credibility, and many BEV owners quote(/brag) best case efficiency, not worst case. 

 

Finally, and perhaps the key achilles heel in your argument that your scientific background gives credibility to your regurgitation of press releases (Toyota are nowhere near production ready for solid state batteries in vehicles for sale - they have only just signed an agreement in principle to build a factory to build the cells/battery units, let alone have a production vehicle in the pipeline for 2026-28), is that you have not thought to do your own real world experiment - You currently possess a 2 tonne, SUV-shaped vehicle with a 0.32 drag coefficient (most BEV SUVs seem to be around 0.29, but evidently there is a ~5% variance between different wind tunnel testing facilities) which you could choose to load up exactly as per your normal use case, then on wet/cold/windy days in your local environ & winter climate, preheat from the plug & press hold charge button when starting your journey, then swap to EV mode when on motorway, and see what efficiency you get with your normal driving style.... Yet you're on here making pie in the sky statements about indeterminate future battery technology and steadfastly ignoring the realities of driving in the real world with other drivers and environmental variances. You personally can't countenance the possibility of waiting for a public charger, so the idea that you are going to sit at a static/perfect 70mph, even if you did have an open road to do it on every long drive, is fundamentally implausible. 

 

I've occasionally butted heads with some others about the climate merits of ICE vs BEV, but I've never purported to be more than an interested layperson (and never felt the need to mention my own multiple degrees & postgraduate qualifications in my field - a field that has nothing to do with battery technology, but lots to do with calling bull excrement on human behaviours & conversational nuances). At least @Cyker, @philip42h, and @Flatcoat are not trying to mislead anyone with their opinions/preferences about BEV small vehicles, or for towing, at a reasonable acquisition price - they simply acknowledge that they'll believe it when they see it (apologies for putting words in people's mouths if inaccurate).

 

Im not looking for a flame war, but I feel it's important for newbies to see a counteropinion. You've said your piece, I've said mine. 

 

DOI - 2022 RAV4 PHEV & 2018 Nissan Leaf Mk2 40kwh owner. 

Just checked your profile. Apologies. So you have a R4P too?

Question then, given all of the EV mode driving you've done what is the worst range you've had and what has it been on average? And in what environmental conditions?

Toyota claim 47 miles in the UK market. My yearly average is about 50, possibly slightly more. I get low to high 50s in the summer. Typically low to mid 40s in the Winter.

Worst case I've ever experienced was driving to the next city at 70mph on the motorway when it was minus 5C to 10C last year. Heating on. I still managed 37 miles. Which as a worst case is roughly 0.7 to 0.8 that of my average or that claimed by Toyota. Noting we are driving a brick so a worst case for your wind factors, drag and your Cd arguments.

I did an Internet trawl of user experience and posted the data and charts here a couple of years ago on the range figures people were getting for different temperature windows, speed windows, aircon on or off, all for the R4P. Enough low quality data still reduces the uncertainty and is very probably a better estimate to attempts at deep 'theoretical' and scientific analysis.

This is what we need for the BEVs so we can understand exactly what a useful multiplier is with the error bars for all of the realistic conditions I or someone else will be driving in, for the UK. 0.7 plus or minus 0.1 or whatever. 

My 0.7 multiplier is simply based on what I'm reading on what folks are reporting in various forums. And it's a commensurate approach with the ball park needs I have. And whilst one can imagine a scenario that breaks such a figure (and to me it doesn't really matter if it is 0.6 rather than 0.7 because I've factored the error in within my range needs) such as a 70mph headwind for the entire journey at -15C this is itself invalid. It's invalid because I wouldn't be driving in those conditions for safety reasons. 

Hopefully you can see the logic and recognise what commensurate and appropriate mean in the context of seeing if there's an about right EV range coming sooner or later.

This is my last response.

[Rav Rob]

I was in the same mind re. EV's last change in 2022 (ordering 2021). 
I was very interested in the stunning Hyundai Ioniq 5 or Tesla Y as meeting most my needs but couldn't afford either on the companies current scheme.

Annoyingly the company has completely revamped their scheme from previously setting a simple limit on monthly lease cost to a 'whole life' cost basis.
It takes into account lower running (fuel) cost to the company and allows the driver to contribute a bit more for an upgrade than previously on the basis they are paying little BIK so can afford it now.
They have also moved people up the grade scale as they recognise EV's are more expensive therefore increasing the companies lease contribution.
All this together now means I could easily have almost anything in the EV choices, certainly a model Y or Hyundai.
But I won't be choosing any more car as I am retiring shortly.. GRRRRRRRR!

I ~may~ purchase my 2022 RAV4 as my keeper though. If the price is right.

 

[Strangely Brown]

1 hour ago, Rav Rob said:

I was in the same mind re. EV's last change in 2022 (ordering 2021). 
I was very interested in the stunning Hyundai Ioniq 5 or Tesla Y as meeting most my needs but couldn't afford either on the companies current scheme.

Annoyingly the company has completely revamped their scheme from previously setting a simple limit on monthly lease cost to a 'whole life' cost basis.

[snip]
 

That could throw up some interesting figures. Hertz and SixT (US rentals) have both just dropped Teslas from their fleets (or will be) because the whole life costs of the vehicles do not make financial sense for them.

I wonder how many fleet managers in the UK are looking at worrying numbers too.

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, Rav Rob said:

I was in the same mind re. EV's last change in 2022 (ordering 2021). 
I was very interested in the stunning Hyundai Ioniq 5 or Tesla Y as meeting most my needs but couldn't afford either on the companies current scheme.

Annoyingly the company has completely revamped their scheme from previously setting a simple limit on monthly lease cost to a 'whole life' cost basis.
It takes into account lower running (fuel) cost to the company and allows the driver to contribute a bit more for an upgrade than previously on the basis they are paying little BIK so can afford it now.
They have also moved people up the grade scale as they recognise EV's are more expensive therefore increasing the companies lease contribution.
All this together now means I could easily have almost anything in the EV choices, certainly a model Y or Hyundai.
But I won't be choosing any more car as I am retiring shortly.. GRRRRRRRR!

I ~may~ purchase my 2022 RAV4 as my keeper though. If the price is right.

 

Sounds like we are in a similar boat Rob. I'm 4 to 6 years from retirement, depending on several factors,  so for me the potential keeper will be my next car after this one im debating now. At which point the long business trips causing my one charge round trip range (or radius of action) requirements goes away. So highly likely I'll be thinking EV so long as electricity doesnt cost a lot more than fuel per mile. 

What colour dud you go for?

Loving the red bitone or white bitone GR Sport look. Currently have a Decuma Grey which is nice. 

 

 

[Nick72]

18 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

That could throw up some interesting figures. Hertz and SixT (US rentals) have both just dropped Teslas from their fleets (or will be) because the whole life costs of the vehicles do not make financial sense for them.

I wonder how many fleet managers in the UK are looking at worrying numbers too.

Whoa that's huge!

[Cyker]

Yeah, Tesla slashing their prices basically destroyed their 2nd hand market overnight and has sown a lot chaos, but that's practically the modus operandi of Tesla.

[ernieb]

My next door neighbour bought a Tesla and the price list dropped just under £6K the week after it was delivered.

Mind you I had a similar experience after I bought my '21 PHEV but not as big a price hit.

[Flatcoat]

6 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Sounds like we are in a similar boat Rob. I'm 4 to 6 years from retirement, depending on several factors,  so for me the potential keeper will be my next car after this one im debating now. At which point the long business trips causing my one charge round trip range (or radius of action) requirements goes away. So highly likely I'll be thinking EV so long as electricity doesnt cost a lot more than fuel per mile. 

What colour dud you go for?

Loving the red bitone or white bitone GR Sport look. Currently have a Decuma Grey which is nice. 

 

 

Retirement….. What’s that…? I am 66 and still working full time! Cant afford to retire (my ex made sure of that…..) 

[TonyHSD]

If it’s a company car I will drive anything, as long as is on a good to me deal and drives fine and doesn’t require stupid ev charges at public places, this is only ok on occasional holiday drives when you have all the time in the world. 
Rav4 hev or phev will be better than any other full electric car to anyone who  spends time on the roads and cover excess of 100 miles a day. 
Full electric only good for electric scooters , bikes or super mini city cars. 

[Strangely Brown]

14 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Whoa that's huge!

It is indeed.
 

 

[Mike2222]

16 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Just checked your profile. Apologies. So you have a R4P too?

Question then, given all of the EV mode driving you've done what is the worst range you've had and what has it been on average? And in what environmental conditions?

Toyota claim 47 miles in the UK market. My yearly average is about 50, possibly slightly more. I get low to high 50s in the summer. Typically low to mid 40s in the Winter.

Worst case I've ever experienced was driving to the next city at 70mph on the motorway when it was minus 5C to 10C last year. Heating on. I still managed 37 miles. Which as a worst case is roughly 0.7 to 0.8 that of my average or that claimed by Toyota. Noting we are driving a brick so a worst case for your wind factors, drag and your Cd arguments.

I did an Internet trawl of user experience and posted the data and charts here a couple of years ago on the range figures people were getting for different temperature windows, speed windows, aircon on or off, all for the R4P. Enough low quality data still reduces the uncertainty and is very probably a better estimate to attempts at deep 'theoretical' and scientific analysis.

This is what we need for the BEVs so we can understand exactly what a useful multiplier is with the error bars for all of the realistic conditions I or someone else will be driving in, for the UK. 0.7 plus or minus 0.1 or whatever. 

My 0.7 multiplier is simply based on what I'm reading on what folks are reporting in various forums. And it's a commensurate approach with the ball park needs I have. And whilst one can imagine a scenario that breaks such a figure (and to me it doesn't really matter if it is 0.6 rather than 0.7 because I've factored the error in within my range needs) such as a 70mph headwind for the entire journey at -15C this is itself invalid. It's invalid because I wouldn't be driving in those conditions for safety reasons. 

Hopefully you can see the logic and recognise what commensurate and appropriate mean in the context of seeing if there's an about right EV range coming sooner or later.

This is my last response.

Contrary to what appears to have been the interpretation, I'm not trolling or looking to start any 'beef' etc. I simply don't appreciate speculation/opinion presented as fact. My personality is tilted more towards the cynical/skeptical end of the spectrum, and whilst I am generally in favour of the shift to electrical mobility, I still very much believe in avoiding misinformation - that is not a dig at you, just that without honesty on such subjects, there will always be resentment from the public, forced to live with the constraints of BEVs but being promised all sorts. Despite being a general cynic, my personal delusions run along the lines of frustration at "why can't a politician just stand at the lectern and make a brutally honest statement about the public finances, and explain what it would take in taxes to fund what the public seems to expect, then give them the choice?", but of course I understand that will never happen.

 

With the added context that you are likely retiring in the next 4-6yrs, and thus losing access to a company car scheme, it makes so much more sense why you would so earnestly want to believe in that timescale for Battery tech advances to give the capabilities you ask of. Thus you are not yourself trolling or fanboy-ing, but you would just very much like to have a BEV "keeper" at the end of your next cycle. For what it's worth, if BEVs were to develop those capabilities, I certainly agree that the vast majority of the ~70% of UK households with off street parking would have little need of a public charging infrastructure.

 

But putting technology aside for a second, that vehicle is not financially achievable the for vaaaaaaaast majority of the UK population, and ignoring that factor makes the "I don't want to bother with charging infrastructure" argument ludicrous. Because without the market for the product, the industry won't pursue it outside of halo model vehicles, and the trickle down effect will be too slow. 

[Mike2222]

17 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Question then, given all of the EV mode driving you've done what is the worst range you've had and what has it been on average? And in what environmental conditions

Best example from my Leaf experience was a 93mile trip, mostly down the A1, with fully packed boot, wife and 2 toddlers, on a cool/cold dry late autumn day (can't estimate temp, don't remember - was bright/sunny day, but chilly nights). 'official' range is 168miles, and first and last 10-15% of journey would have been single lane A-roads, 40-60mph. I think finished with 6% Battery - was definitely more of a squeaky-bum experience than I had expected. 

 

I don't drive like a hooligan, but early motorway speed would have been 70-74 typically, but I was doing 60-65 towards the end, because I don't do that route regularly, and was aiming for an AirBnB, so needed a bit of wiggle room for finding it at the end. I thought I had planned plenty of contingency, but "best laid plans of mice & men", and all that! 

[Mike2222]

FWIW, my broad definitions of troll or fanboy, in this context are:

 

Troll - "I need an EV to be able to pull donuts in the asda carpark, then hitch up a trailer with my jetski, so I can drive 4x longer than my bladder capacity, be able to hold at least 14 crates of bud light in the boot, all at 80mph, in a typhoon, in winter", [delete as appropriate to form a sentence that you believe and actual human might say].... "Because that's what my diesel car do."

 

Fanboy - "Elon says it, so it must be true" [or equivalent] 

[Nick72]

38 minutes ago, Mike2222 said:

Contrary to what appears to have been the interpretation, I'm not trolling or looking to start any 'beef' etc. I simply don't appreciate speculation/opinion presented as fact. My personality is tilted more towards the cynical/skeptical end of the spectrum, and whilst I am generally in favour of the shift to electrical mobility, I still very much believe in avoiding misinformation - that is not a dig at you, just that without honesty on such subjects, there will always be resentment from the public, forced to live with the constraints of BEVs but being promised all sorts. Despite being a general cynic, my personal delusions run along the lines of frustration at "why can't a politician just stand at the lectern and make a brutally honest statement about the public finances, and explain what it would take in taxes to fund what the public seems to expect, then give them the choice?", but of course I understand that will never happen.

 

With the added context that you are likely retiring in the next 4-6yrs, and thus losing access to a company car scheme, it makes so much more sense why you would so earnestly want to believe in that timescale for battery tech advances to give the capabilities you ask of. Thus you are not yourself trolling or fanboy-ing, but you would just very much like to have a BEV "keeper" at the end of your next cycle. For what it's worth, if BEVs were to develop those capabilities, I certainly agree that the vast majority of the ~70% of UK households with off street parking would have little need of a public charging infrastructure.

 

But putting technology aside for a second, that vehicle is not financially achievable the for vaaaaaaaast majority of the UK population, and ignoring that factor makes the "I don't want to bother with charging infrastructure" argument ludicrous. Because without the market for the product, the industry won't pursue it outside of halo model vehicles, and the trickle down effect will be too slow. 

You say one thing but suggest the opposite. You say not wanting to start a beef then you imply I'm being dishonest. All you are providing is an opinion without references and a personal attack. What is wrong with you? Asking because I'm actually concerned for you.

I say I don't want to bother with charging infrastructure as a personal mitigation of the risks associated with a dependence on the flakey infrastructure and that can be mitigated by another circa 25 to 35% range increase, which, if you look at the facts isn't too far away combined with falling prices. So you can think it ludicrous all you want but that's my position and choice. Not yours. 

In terms of wider population with access to home charging solutions if they had say a 500mi real world range BEV how much range anxiety do you think they'd have and how dependent do you think they'd be on infrastructure? Quite frankly not a lot. Follow the stats links here...

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/national-travel-survey-2021/national-travel-survey-2021-household-car-availability-and-trends-in-car-trips#:~:text=Overall%2C males made longer car,in car trips by females.

Cost is a separate issue but falling. Volvo, Kia, Toyota all have significant plans. See the EX30.

[Nick72]

9 hours ago, ernieb said:

My next door neighbour bought a Tesla and the price list dropped just under £6K the week after it was delivered.

Mind you I had a similar experience after I bought my '21 PHEV but not as big a price hit.

Ouch.

Me too Ernie on the PHEV. It cost me probably another 60 quid a month. Win some lose some. Think the price was 54k for Dynamic Premium. 

 

[Nick72]

9 hours ago, Flatcoat said:

Retirement….. What’s that…? I am 66 and still working full time! Cant afford to retire (my ex made sure of that…..) 

Well I'm hoping to avoid divorce or I'll be working with you! When I say retirement I mean working on what I want to work on for myself.

[Nick72]

48 minutes ago, Mike2222 said:

Best example from my Leaf experience was a 93mile trip, mostly down the A1, with fully packed boot, wife and 2 toddlers, on a cool/cold dry late autumn day (can't estimate temp, don't remember - was bright/sunny day, but chilly nights). 'official' range is 168miles, and first and last 10-15% of journey would have been single lane A-roads, 40-60mph. I think finished with 6% battery - was definitely more of a squeaky-bum experience than I had expected. 

 

I don't drive like a hooligan, but early motorway speed would have been 70-74 typically, but I was doing 60-65 towards the end, because I don't do that route regularly, and was aiming for an AirBnB, so needed a bit of wiggle room for finding it at the end. I thought I had planned plenty of contingency, but "best laid plans of mice & men", and all that! 

So thats pretty low by comparison to many of the new EVs. 55% is low. Is the car fitted with a heat pump and was there or is there a preconditioning option? That seems to make a huge difference.  The R4P PHEV is a case in point with what amounts to a heat pump and HVAC integration. It's why the EV range is largely insensitive to a wide range of temperatures versus others. Unlike some other manufacturers (speaking with direct experience of other PHEVs) Toyota has not narrowly optimised range for a particular cruise speed (about 20mph on my last PHEV so great for city driving in traffic but outside of that on a dual carriageway or motorway you would be lucky to see 30% of the claimed range). This was apparent from the range, temperature, speed charts I posted here a couple of years back for the RAV which said 45 to 50mph and about 25C was optimal with a 60 mile range feasible.That obviously changes at higher and lower speeds and colder temperatures but not by as much as some of the earlier PHEVs and EVs. 

 

What's your experience of the R4P? Do you still have one?

[Nick72]

47 minutes ago, Mike2222 said:

FWIW, my broad definitions of troll or fanboy, in this context are:

 

Troll - "I need an EV to be able to pull donuts in the asda carpark, then hitch up a trailer with my jetski, so I can drive 4x longer than my bladder capacity, be able to hold at least 14 crates of bud light in the boot, all at 80mph, in a typhoon, in winter", [delete as appropriate to form a sentence that you believe and actual human might say].... "Because that's what my diesel car do."

 

Fanboy - "Elon says it, so it must be true" [or equivalent] 

🤣

[Cyker]

1 hour ago, Mike2222 said:

"why can't a politician just stand at the lectern and make a brutally honest statement about the public finances, and explain what it would take in taxes to fund what the public seems to expect, then give them the choice?", but of course I understand that will never happen.

This is mainly our, the general public's fault, as well as politicians in general.

As soon as someone does stuff like that, it's knives out and commence with the back stabbing from all sides - Us, the media, other politicians etc..

All the people that had that level of honesty have been bullied, shamed and buried out of politics.

Now we're left with the Goves, the Farrages, the Cummings, the Khans, the Bravermans, etc., and we keep voting more of them in because we'd collectively rather believe a fantastical lie than the truth.

That's how politics is played, especially as there is literally no incentive to be truthful and realistic - Think about all the things we've been promised in the past - My 3 favourite examples are the Dartford crossing; Should be free to cross since we paid it off in 2003, the ULEZ extension; Was categorically told it would not be extended to the M25, and Brexit would make everyone rich and kittens and rainbows and the moon. On a stick.

None of the people who get in power via their lies ever get any penalty or consequence, while the honest ones get all of that.

The pandemic was another example - All the honest ones who broke the rules, stepped down, while the dishonest ones refused to and are now in even higher levels of power. Even Boris is only getting any comeuppance because they're using him as a scapegoat and to try and distract us from all the other stuff they're trying to sneak past.

Like this Rwanda thing - It turns out they can just change the law if it doesn't suit them, similar to what Trump did, so what's even the point of having them?

I don't know how we can fix this.

 

1 hour ago, Mike2222 said:

Troll - "I need an EV to be able to pull donuts in the asda carpark, then hitch up a trailer with my jetski, so I can drive 4x longer than my bladder capacity, be able to hold at least 14 crates of bud light in the boot, all at 80mph, in a typhoon, in winter", [delete as appropriate to form a sentence that you believe and actual human might say].... "Because that's what my diesel car do."

But but that's exactly what I wanted!!!   (For clarification I am joking... OR AM I!!?  )

[Mike2222]

Bored now. 

 

Let me know when you buy your unicorn 👍