Less PHEV EV range this winter than last winter ?

[HSDish]

Our RAV 4 PHEV 2020 seems to manage a bit less EV range this winter than last winter.

Now in dec we have managed to drive about 50 km ( 31.0685596 miles) on one full charge with about -2 to 2 C outdoor temp and AC set on 21 C. Seat heat at middle and stearingwheel heat on and at speeds from 40 km/h to 80 km/h( 24.8 to 49.7 mph )

Last winter we drove about 58 km ( 36.0395291 miles at the same trip and under same conditions.

What could this depend on?

We have driven a lot , about 40 000 km ( 24 854.8477 miles) this year 2023.

Could it be, that the traction Battery losed that much power , at that distance?

[spicyhotone]

Did you have the recall on the inverter? I feel like my range (on my 2021 PHEV) has decreased this winter. My understanding is that the recall has changed the way the Battery is heated in cold weather, so I was feeling a bit suspicious that maybe the Battery isn't being kept at such an optimum temperature as before. My indicated range was down to 42 miles in the (UK) cold weather a few weeks ago. Now it's milder it's returning to 46 miles which is more like I remembered from previous years. Total mileage about 28K.

[HSDish]

5 hours ago, spicyhotone said:

Did you have the recall on the inverter? I feel like my range (on my 2021 PHEV) has decreased this winter. My understanding is that the recall has changed the way the battery is heated in cold weather, so I was feeling a bit suspicious that maybe the battery isn't being kept at such an optimum temperature as before. My indicated range was down to 42 miles in the (UK) cold weather a few weeks ago. Now it's milder it's returning to 46 miles which is more like I remembered from previous years. Total mileage about 28K.

Thanks.

Yes I had the inverter recall but I talked to my local Toyota garage today and he didnt think that the "update" would have such an effect on EV range.

He also clamied that I would be able to drive at least three times as much before the traction Battery will show any power loss.

But... (stupid me)

I do now recall that I had the car in a big garage (every night) last winter and there will never be below 5 C. Which I dont have had this winter

Maybe that did affect overall EV range

[Oscarmax]

6 hours ago, spicyhotone said:

Did you have the recall on the inverter? I feel like my range (on my 2021 PHEV) has decreased this winter. My understanding is that the recall has changed the way the battery is heated in cold weather, so I was feeling a bit suspicious that maybe the battery isn't being kept at such an optimum temperature as before. My indicated range was down to 42 miles in the (UK) cold weather a few weeks ago. Now it's milder it's returning to 46 miles which is more like I remembered from previous years. Total mileage about 28K.

Strangely mine went down as low as 37, but back to 46/47 again, in the mornings in now displays 52/53 previously displaying 56 must be warming the Battery ?

[spicyhotone]

29 minutes ago, HSDish said:

Thanks.

Yes I had the inverter recall but I talked to my local Toyota garage today and he didnt think that the "update" would have such an effect on EV range.

He also clamied that I would be able to drive at least three times as much before the traction battery will show any power loss.

But... (stupid me)

I do now recall that I had the car in a big garage (every night) last winter and there will never be below 5 C. Which I dont have had this winter

Maybe that did affect overall EV range

Yes, the Battery is very sensitive to ambient temperature. By the nature of a small PHEV Battery, even with a heater, by the time it's heated up all that mass, it's probably used up a good proportion of it's charge already. I suspect the warmer garage is probably what's causing that difference for ypu.

 

[spicyhotone]

1 minute ago, Oscarmax said:

Strangely mine went down as low as 37, but back to 46/47 again.

Well, of course it depends how it's driven also. If you do lots of short journeys where lots of power is spent just heating up the car, and coupled with the Battery efficiency dropping off at low temperatures, then I guess that can make the estimated range drop low.

[HSDish]

In our case we drove in pretty much the same conditions.

Same trip and pretty much the same weather/temperature (both in and outside) as last year.

Dont know about tyre pressure, though.

But... the garage probably made difference

[Nick72]

Preconditioning makes a big difference. If I know I'm going out on a trip and it's near zero or sub zero I precondition the car whilst it's plugged into the home wall box. I always keep it plugged in during winter. That heats up the cabin, defrosts the windows, and conditions the Battery since the heat pump and hvac system is one and the same. And none of this depletes the traction Battery.

This means all means you are setting off with a full Battery and a warm battery. That will make a measurable distance to range.

Keeping your car in the garage will have a similar effect to the above depending upon how warm your garage is.

I've never had a range less than 38 miles. Typically getting 40 to 48 during UK winter. Summer, getting 46 to 58. Just as an indicator of my driving context (speed, types of road, driving style).

[ernieb]

Totally agree, preconditioning is the best way to go as the temperature drops, very similar range figures to my car.

[spicyhotone]

I was preconditioning in the colder weather, and getting indicated range of 42. Which I thought was less than I saw in cold weather last year. But could just be my one-year-older-brain playing up in the cold weather 😉 Just felt suspicious as it was shortly after getting the recall fix done on the Battery heater system.

[Nick72]

On 12/13/2023 at 3:06 PM, spicyhotone said:

Yes, the battery is very sensitive to ambient temperature. By the nature of a small PHEV battery, even with a heater, by the time it's heated up all that mass, it's probably used up a good proportion of it's charge already. I suspect the warmer garage is probably what's causing that difference for ypu.

 

Preconditioning if left plugged into the wall box doesn't use any traction Battery energy. Comes from the wall box. I do this every winter and it stops wasting Battery which reduces range, and it makes the Battery warm so more optimal range performance. Result is probably another 8 to 15 miles that would otherwise be inaccessible.

More importantly, I'm getting into a lovely warm car and all the windows are clear. No time wasted.

[nlee]

48 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

Preconditioning if left plugged into the wall box doesn't use any traction battery energy. Comes from the wall box.

Please don't think I'm being picky or smart, only commenting in the interest of shared understanding. I believe the preconditioning is powered from the traction Battery (albeit via DC to DC converter - someone else on the forum previously corrected me on this) and there isn't a bypass to the mains supply. If the car is plugged in, the use of the Battery will trigger charging and top it up. But end result is the same, Battery is full and car is warm!

[Nick72]

12 hours ago, nlee said:

Please don't think I'm being picky or smart, only commenting in the interest of shared understanding. I believe the preconditioning is powered from the traction battery (albeit via DC to DC converter - someone else on the forum previously corrected me on this) and there isn't a bypass to the mains supply. If the car is plugged in, the use of the battery will trigger charging and top it up. But end result is the same, battery is full and car is warm!

Yep agreed. I just didn't want to add to the existing explanation complexity. I recall the past debates on this and it makes sense. As you say, the result is the same. 

All the preconditioning energy comes from the traction Battery. The Battery is however just a conduit for the wall box at this point since I imagine the preconditioning proportion of power going into the Battery from the wall box is also a small percentage of the 6.6kW. Certainly doesn't feel like a 6.6kW electric fire (which would be like over 3 off 2 bar electric fires). 1kW or 2kW at best? 

Keeps the solution simple and lower cost. 

[philip42h]

7 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Yep agreed. I just didn't want to add to the existing explanation complexity. I recall the past debates on this and it makes sense. As you say, the result is the same. 

All the preconditioning energy comes from the traction battery.

Well, if we were being uber pedantic, and why not just for fun, the heat pump runs at 240V (I believe) and the power comes from the traction Battery via a DC-AC inverter. The rest of the preconditioning will be run from the 12V system, and the power for that will be drawn from the 12V auxiliary Battery - which, in turn, will be replenished from the traction Battery via the DC-DC converter. And the traction battery will be replenished via the mains provided that the car is plugged-in etc.

But you knew all of that ... 🙂

[ernieb]

The preconditioning works just fine from a granny cable which is limited to the 10amps. @philip42h description above is how I think the system works.

[Nick72]

5 hours ago, philip42h said:

Well, if we were being uber pedantic, and why not just for fun, the heat pump runs at 240V (I believe) and the power comes from the traction battery via a DC-AC inverter. The rest of the preconditioning will be run from the 12V system, and the power for that will be drawn from the 12V auxiliary battery - which, in turn, will be replenished from the traction battery via the DC-DC converter. And the traction battery will be replenished via the mains provided that the car is plugged-in etc.

But you knew all of that ... 🙂

😂👍💯

Yes, the rabbit hole gets deeper.

Just to geek out I'd love to see the electrical system diagram for the car in terms of voltages, AC or DC, power or current (since we know V it doesn't matter which of these, P = I * V). For all subsystems.

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

😂👍💯

Yes, the rabbit hole gets deeper.

Just to geek out I'd love to see the electrical system diagram for the car in terms of voltages, AC or DC, power or current (since we know V it doesn't matter which of these, P = I * V). For all subsystems.

There's some of that buried in the Dismantling Manual: hvdm RAV PHV.pdf

[Nick72]

2 hours ago, philip42h said:

There's some of that buried in the Dismantling Manual: hvdm RAV PHV.pdf

Great find.

 

[ernieb]

3 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Great find.

 

Interesting I always thought that the heat pump ran off 240v this seems to show it running off the 355v supply?

[Nick72]

17 hours ago, ernieb said:

Interesting I always thought that the heat pump ran off 240v this seems to show it running off the 355v supply?

I was trying to figure that out also. The Air Con compressor seems to. But I couldn't see where the heater element was. I assume there's what amounts to a small electric fire (current through resistive wire) somewhere in the system to heat things up when the ICE isn't running? 

[philip42h]

2 hours ago, Nick72 said:

19 hours ago, ernieb said:

Interesting I always thought that the heat pump ran off 240v this seems to show it running off the 355v supply?

I was trying to figure that out also. The Air Con compressor seems to. But I couldn't see where the heater element was. I assume there's what amounts to a small electric fire (current through resistive wire) somewhere in the system to heat things up when the ICE isn't running? 

Within the text it is described as: A/C Compressor (with inverter) - 3-phase high voltage AC electrically driven motor compressor. So, while the 'system' is obviously driven from the traction Battery at 355V DC, there's an inverter to convert to AC for the heat pump. I too thought it was 240V but can't now find where I got that notion from ...

[Nick72]

3 hours ago, philip42h said:

Within the text it is described as: A/C Compressor (with inverter) - 3-phase high voltage AC electrically driven motor compressor. So, while the 'system' is obviously driven from the traction battery at 355V DC, there's an inverter to convert to AC for the heat pump. I too thought it was 240V but can't now find where I got that notion from ...

It's a complex system for sure. 😉

[nlee]

On 12/16/2023 at 7:45 AM, philip42h said:

Well, if we were being uber pedantic, and why not just for fun, the heat pump runs at 240V (I believe) and the power comes from the traction battery via a DC-AC inverter. The rest of the preconditioning will be run from the 12V system, and the power for that will be drawn from the 12V auxiliary battery - which, in turn, will be replenished from the traction battery via the DC-DC converter. And the traction battery will be replenished via the mains provided that the car is plugged-in etc.

But you knew all of that ... 🙂

Now I remember, it was you that corrected me last time 😂

[NASY]

I see only heat pump - no element required to heat. Great to see the diagram, thanks.

[GBgraham]

On 12/16/2023 at 10:10 PM, ernieb said:

Interesting I always thought that the heat pump ran off 240v this seems to show it running off the 355v supply?

It is good for the system that the voltages are kept high as it extends Battery life. If we knew the draw in amps or watts and then by to applying Ohms Law you would see the difference between 240v vs 355v, a guess of around 30% less power required. . . higher the voltage, lower the amperage.