Post Office Horizon Computer Scandal.

[Haliotis]

Just finished watching “Mr Bates v The Post Office” on TV.   it was difficult to watch how the Post Office management sadisticly persecuted hundreds of innocent sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses with lies to cover the failings of their computer system.  It was so bad that, if it had been a fictional drama, most of us would have said that no national company in the UK could get away with doing this.  How wrong in our belief that would turn out to be.  At the end of the series, all I felt was sympathy and sadness for the innocent victims, and a hatred towards the Post Office hierarchy.

[Cyker]

Yeah! Ugh this quite the rage inducing topic for me. The people in charge and responsible should be prosecuted for the level of incompetence and deliberate obliviousness they've shown throughout the saga, and it's a lesson on why you can't just trust an untested computer system blindly.

The sickening thing is, after all the suffering and jail time for crimes we now know were false, they are still sandbagging compensation payouts last time I looked - If anything the higher up's pay should be withheld down to a minimum wage stipend until the compensation has been fully paid up, but I suspect like our politicians they'll be awarding themselves bonuses and pay rises while freezing or cutting pay for everyone else instead.

When you listen to the experiences of the posties, of how they tried to fill the incorrect shortfalls with their own money, and how the Post Office management repeatedly lied to them and didn't even try to investigate, despite so many reports and it being blindingly obvious something must be wrong that so much fraud would suddenly start taking place out of nowhere after years of loyal service, right as the new system was brought in, it makes my blood boil how they were treated!

And every chance they get to make it right, to apologise and compensate, they have stalled and sandbagged as much as possible. It's just sickening how much they have gotten away with and the lack of any care or respect they continue to show for the victims. It's clear they're worried about their own backsides more than making things right and those backsides need to get a good kicking.

 

 

[Rhymes with Paris]

Agreed, I will hand deliver letters now and defund them.

Trouble is, the bank branches that were accessable to me have now shut, and bill paying and cash withdrawals have been shunted towards local post offices.

I don't want to do everything online due to so many mistakes and lash ups, even if dealing with honest outfits, which seem to be increasingly rare.

[Bper]

7 minutes ago, Rhymes with Paris said:

Agreed, I will hand deliver letters now and defund them.

Trouble is, the bank branches that were accessable to me have now shut, and bill paying and cash withdrawals have been shunted towards local post offices.

I don't want to do everything online due to so many mistakes and lash ups, even if dealing with honest outfits, which seem to be increasingly rare.

The reason bank branches are closing is the Inevitable push towards digital currency. ATM are being taken out in many towns under the excuse they are to expensive to maintain.

[Cyker]

Don't get me wrong - I have nothing against Royal Mail itself; I think Post Offices and postmen are still essential and should be a protected service. IMHO it should never have been privatised.

But the people in charge at the top and down the chain who were responsible for such an insane miscarriage of justice cannot be allowed to get away without severe punishment for the lives they've wrecked and avoiding any opportunity to make things; Some of the victims have lost years of their lives to jail time they should never have served, and will never get that back, and all of them have had vast sums of their own money lost when they tried to make up for the discrepancies, should have been returned before we even consider the compensation.

The worst thing is this should have been settled by now - I first became aware of it around 2015, but it apparently started in the late '90s, and is still on-going! The only good thing so far is I think most of the people incorrectly jailed have been freed, but everyone in charge is denying responsibility.

 

[yossarian247]

Just to clarify, the Post Office and Royal Mail are now totally separate entities. Whilst Royal Mail is now a private company the Post Office remains 100% owned and controlled by the UK government. 

In my opinion Paula Vennells should be in prison, but I'd at least like to see her lose her CBE:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe

 

[Haliotis]

Cyker, I share your indignation at the callous way the Post Office behaved by their stubborn insistence that Horizon was faultless.  But we all know that they were aware of a serious problem when they told each postmaster/-mistress that that they were the only one with the financial discrepancies.  We’re these bosses so mentally thick, not to realise that huge kick-back would eventually occur?

And, along with the views given by other posters, I fiercely avoid having anything to do with the Post Office.

[Cyker]

Oh interesting, I didn't know they were separate entities! When did that happen?? That's very confusing, how does that even work!

 

[Puglet]

Totally shocking state of affairs, well done to those courageous Postmasters/mistresses who had the steal to stand up and fight. Having worked in IT for many years, how the Post Office heads thought the Horizon system was bug free is unfathomal. In my experience, our users were often the source of problems with various systems and processes and you worked together to find a solution, there was no blame game, just a lets work together to sort any issues to make all our lives easier and the business will benefit, even though we had rigourous testing and QA, certain complex issues only arose when things went live.

[yossarian247]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

Oh interesting, I didn't know they were separate entities! When did that happen?? That's very confusing, how does that even work!

 

Its a long and complicated story, but originally the 'General Post Office' controlled what is now BT, Royal Mail, Post Office Ltd, Parcelforce, National Savings, and even part of what is now Santander Bank (formerly National Girobank).

Throughout the 1980s and beyond the various profitable parts were split off and privatised, leaving the government with mostly the loss-making parts. In 1987 'Post Office Counters Ltd' was made into a separate company, but still under the control of Royal Mail. In 2012, in preparation for Royal Mail privatisation, Post Office Ltd (formerly Post Office Counters Ltd) was removed from Royal Mail's control by the government and became a totally separate organisation, with its own board of directors. Royal Mail was then privatised, leaving Post Office Ltd still controlled by the government.

The Post Office is now really just a taxpayer-owned chain of shops, which specialises in selling various services provided by other organisations, such as those of Royal Mail.

[Haliotis]

Thanks for the history lesson, Nick.  I’m also confused - I think I’ll go for a lie down. 😩

[Mjolinor]

Society now is such that the easiest way is the way of the ostrich, bury ones head in the sand and let them push as much paper as they want.

 

[yossarian247]

6 hours ago, yossarian247 said:

 

In my opinion Paula Vennells should be in prison, but I'd at least like to see her lose her CBE:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe

 

I just checked that petition link again. Only a few days ago it was hovering around a couple of thousand signatures, but it's now heading for 155,000 signatures . Obviously snowballing due to anger generated by the programme. Good!

[Cyker]

2 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

Society now is such that the easiest way is the way of the ostrich, bury ones head in the sand and let them push as much paper as they want.

 

Indeed, and this is why we need to be ready with the shovels to dig their heads out so they can't hide from their responsibilities!

However, we also need to give credit when people at least try to do the right thing, as I see too many who do, get jumped on even more, which is wrong and why so many smeg pots are in charge, as all the good ones have been scared away while the  ones get away with it and stay in power.

It's one reason the quality of our politicians has declined, as while loads of them broke covid rules, the ones who had a conscience and put their hands up stepped down and were penalized for it, while disgusting scumbags like Cummings brazenly ignored it, showed absolutely no remorse, but got no sanctions, and stayed in power with no penalties whatsoever.

If anything, it's people like that who didn't step down are the ones that should have been penalized the harshest, not the ones that did step down!

 

[Haliotis]

With their hidden agendas, self gratification, and their apparent aims seeming to be diametrically opposite to what  the public expects, it is impossible to know which politicians to trust (if any) and which party to vote for.  Is it any wonder that the turnout ballots are such a low percentage?

[Cyker]

It is kinda suspect that any party who gets in power can claim consent by a majority of the country voting for them when in reality less than a third did if you count votes vs total population. Just because they ignore non-votes doesn't mean those people don't exist.

I honestly don't even understand why we need politicians - What do they actually do? Most of the day to day stuff is handled by civil servants, and any idiot can make an uninformed decision, so I don't see why we should be paying them such a high wage to do so. If anything, with the level of information technology we have now, we should be able to directly vote on major decisions ourselves, especially ones that have a direct impact on our lives.

The people that actually do the hard work, the civil servants, can handle the day to day stuff as they always have done!

[Rhymes with Paris]

36 minutes ago, Cyker said:

as all the good ones have been scared away while the  ones get away with it and stay in power.

Aye Cyker, it's worth studying psychopathy,sociopathy,narcissism and the machevalian triangle.

Not in an depth way for a PhD, unless it's your profession of course, but it explained a lot to me about the toxic and harmful people that there seems to be a lot more of now.

I think they must have a breeding programme for them.

[Haliotis]

I frequently watch PM Questions on a Wednesday.  When I listen to the exchanges at the despach box, and the chaos that reminds me of when a school teacher left the class, I do wonder how on earth any real business gets done.  But I do so enjoy it when The Speaker gets serious with an errant MP.

[Cyker]

You're made of sterner stuff than me! Whenever I've tried to watch a commons debate, I can't watch for more than a few minutes. Literal primary school children can debate a topic with more decorum and productivity!

It just seems like a game or slagging match to them, rather than a rational debate to try and reach a consensus or find the best solution that all sides can agree on. If anything, the goal of the game seems to be to not agree to anything the other side says no matter how sensible or obvious it is!

[dannyboy413]

I think it is a question of one or more parties are in Government and all other parties are in opposition. So those in opposition oppose what the current Government are doing or proposing. I don't think it makes much difference which party is in Government and which is in opposition. They are all, (virtually), the same to me! And @Cyker is correct when he asserts that primary school children act with more decorum.

[Primus1]

I must admit I’ve not watched this program, I think I’d be throwing things at the tv, I’d be so angry, there were postmasters that committed suicide over this others lost everything, when this scandal first broke a few years ago they had a senior IT technician who implemented the horizon system and he said it wasn’t ready but was ignored, it seems this country rewards greed, incompetence and criminal neglect, none of the senior post office execs have, as yet, faced any charges, I really hope they do..

[Haliotis]

I’ve signed the petition for Paula Vennells to be stripped of her CBE but this, if it happens, should not be seen as closure for her misdemeanour.  She, along with other responsible executives, should face imprisonment for her actions.  After all, by her deviousness, she contributed to innocent postmasters/mistresses being wrongly imprisoned and financially ruined by concocting a tissue of lies.

[Bper]

It seems incredibly to believe that nobody from either the post office or ICL didn't accept that a problem existed with the Horizon software when the discrepancies first appeared yet alone when they escalated as time went on. 

The department of Social Security had rejected the system, but the government continued with its procurement for use by the Post Office.

What part of any software when money and accounts is involved especially when millions of transactions a day are being made is not tested under prelaunch conditions to simulate real world conditions. This would of been paramount at discussions at the pre-development software stage.

The post office knew a problem existed but used money and power to squash court cases along with payments and NDAs made to those when a judge agreed to an independent software engineer to look into Horizon software. 

It is a complete cover up and those who were responsible should be prosecuted. However what also happened to the reported Horizon system missing money after the software fault was found. 

Forensic software analysis must of been used to locate this. Has anyone from Fujitsu who own ICL not been brought to book over this.

We also signed the petition a while ago.

 

[Bernard Foy]

On 1/3/2024 at 8:39 PM, Cyker said:

Don't get me wrong - I have nothing against Royal Mail itself; I think Post Offices and postmen are still essential and should be a protected service. IMHO it should never have been privatised.

But the people in charge at the top and down the chain who were responsible for such an insane miscarriage of justice cannot be allowed to get away without severe punishment for the lives they've wrecked and avoiding any opportunity to make things; Some of the victims have lost years of their lives to jail time they should never have served, and will never get that back, and all of them have had vast sums of their own money lost when they tried to make up for the discrepancies, should have been returned before we even consider the compensation.

The worst thing is this should have been settled by now - I first became aware of it around 2015, but it apparently started in the late '90s, and is still on-going! The only good thing so far is I think most of the people incorrectly jailed have been freed, but everyone in charge is denying responsibility.

 

Cycker, in the first paragraph of the above post you have hit the nail on the head. All those national organizations who were privatized were answerable to the public and their elected representatives, now they’re only answerable to their shareholders. Therein is the real reason for a vast majority of those institutions troubles, it’s purely a profit led ethos, and the service element to the public has been thrown to the wolves of profiteering.

[AndyN01]

A bit of  a general thought.

I'm a fan of a philosophy: Where's there's choice then there are consequences that go with it.

So, for me, I'd happily "go after" every manager etc. that said things like - you're the only one...the system is fine... etc. etc. right the way to the very top. They chose to lie. And the consequence would be that their pension/home etc. is used to pay the compensation.

Oh, and it particularly applies to anyone who is an elected representative since "they" are at the very top of the tree having been put their by (and for) the people.

Perhaps it might focus a few folks on the value of truth and integrity?

Maybe I'm getting too radical in my old age?

Oh, a pig has just flown past my window....... 😀

Andy.