yaris Cross awd 12 volt battery performance in cold weather.

[Cyker]

I think Toyota Ireland sells petrol-only versions in the lower specs but Toyota GB chose to go hybrid-only. I assume it's some combination of homologation fees and fleet-wide CO2 that affected their choices...

[BobHos]

10 minutes ago, Chas G said:

Apart from the 12 volt battery issues, it bothers me that if I park in my garage and a jump pack etc won't boot up the management system I won't be able to put the car in neutral, take the hand brake off and push it out for RAC/AA recovery. 

I am willing to risk driving the car into the garage, letting it charge in ready mode for 2 hours and then i put it back on the road on the basis that it stays with the EMS booted up the whole time. 

Rac were supposed to fit a Bosch S4 202 44ahr battery today but phoned at 6pm to say they didn't have the battery.

Why do you think you won't be able to jump start?

[Chas G]

2 minutes ago, BobHos said:

Why do you think you won't be able to jump start?

Fault in the engine management system, other than 12 volt availability, which stops it going into ready mode.

[BobHos]

14 minutes ago, Chas G said:

Fault in the engine management system, other than 12 volt availability, which stops it going into ready mode.

I don't understand are you saying that your car has a faulty EMS or that thre is an inherent problem generally in the Cross  EMS? If you jump start with a reasonable 12 volt Battery or connect a charger with enough capacity to operate the high voltage contactor the car should be able to go into "READY" mode.

Edited January 18 by BobHos
double entry

[MikeSh]

24 minutes ago, Chas G said:

I won't be able to put the car in neutral, take the hand brake off and push it out for RAC/AA recovery.

Automatics usually have an override for the shift lock (and usually involves a screwdriver) and according to the manual my Mk3 does. Have a look in the manual for yours - probably under Shift lock system or similar in the index at the back..

[anchorman]

52 minutes ago, Chas G said:

Apart from the 12 volt battery issues, it bothers me that if I park in my garage and a jump pack etc won't boot up the management system I won't be able to put the car in neutral, take the hand brake off and push it out for RAC/AA recovery. 

I am willing to risk driving the car into the garage, letting it charge in ready mode for 2 hours and then i put it back on the road on the basis that it stays with the EMS booted up the whole time. 

Rac were supposed to fit a Bosch S4 202 44ahr battery today but phoned at 6pm to say they didn't have the battery.

 

52 minutes ago, Chas G said:

Apart from the 12 volt battery issues, it bothers me that if I park in my garage and a jump pack etc won't boot up the management system I won't be able to put the car in neutral, take the hand brake off and push it out for RAC/AA recovery. 

I am willing to risk driving the car into the garage, letting it charge in ready mode for 2 hours and then i put it back on the road on the basis that it stays with the EMS booted up the whole time. 

Rac were supposed to fit a Bosch S4 202 44ahr battery today but phoned at 6pm to say they didn't have the battery.

 

53 minutes ago, Chas G said:

Apart from the 12 volt battery issues, it bothers me that if I park in my garage and a jump pack etc won't boot up the management system I won't be able to put the car in neutral, take the hand brake off and push it out for RAC/AA recovery. 

I am willing to risk driving the car into the garage, letting it charge in ready mode for 2 hours and then i put it back on the road on the basis that it stays with the EMS booted up the whole time. 

Rac were supposed to fit a Bosch S4 202 44ahr battery today but phoned at 6pm to say they didn't have the battery.

I think you’ll find you can forget about your jump pack if you get a decent Battery Chas.  There are literally millions of Toyota/Lexus Hybrids floating about the world  and they don’t all carry jump packs. 

47 minutes ago, BobHos said:

Yes I knew that would be how it would be - not good. I was told that there are over 80 pages of posts/comments regarding the batteries. I don't fancy wading through them,  I have a very strong hunch now that the battery is faulty or of inferior quality - shame on you Toyota.

 

You have to put it into perspective Robert.  It’s a pretty good bet that they’re onto the Battery issue and they’ll fix it but they tend to change things at the end of production runs.  I mockingly call the batteries Mutley but they will have planned contractual runs and they themselves may be working on a fix.  The supplier must be European or at least produced in Europe.  

[anchorman]

46 minutes ago, Chas G said:

Fault in the engine management system, other than 12 volt availability, which stops it going into ready mode.

Crikey Chas, fault in the engine management?   You’ll have me selling my Lexus in a bit 😉

[BobHos]

1 hour ago, anchorman said:

I think they know by now but they will insist on having the vehicle for two days while they charge it day one and test it day two.  I’ve charged very questionable batteries after an overnight charge and they’ve come out fine so at worst it will pass the test and you’ve wasted two days or at even worse, they’ll fail it and fit another crock of you know what.  For £80 it’s not worth the hassle and it then presents the car you expected to enjoy.  

Any reports of failures with the Youasa batteries that you are aware of? I can't get it out of my head that perhaps it has been a combination of lowish capacity Battery, very cold temperatures, and an inaccurate or unreasonabe alarm/cut off voltage set by Japanese designers who rarely experience sub zero temperatures. Do you know of any capacity/performance  tests that have been performed on suspect original batteries? 

[BobHos]

7 minutes ago, BobHos said:

Any reports of failures with the Youasa batteries that you are aware of? I can't get it out of my head that perhaps it has been a combination of lowish capacity battery, very cold temperatures, and an inaccurate or unreasonabe alarm/cut off voltage set by Japanese designers who rarely experience sub zero temperatures. Do you know of any capacity/performance  tests that have been performed on suspect original batteries? 

Sorry getting a bit carried away with the comments, etc and my own lack of clear recall. I remember when I tried to start the car on the 16th there was not enough oomph in the Battery to energise the high voltage contactor so it was definitely a Battery lack of capacity or capability, I offer my apologies to the Nipon designers,

[Bernard Foy]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

I think Toyota Ireland sells petrol-only versions in the lower specs but Toyota GB chose to go hybrid-only. I assume it's some combination of homologation fees and fleet-wide CO2 that affected their choices...

The  1.5 Yaris is sold in petrol only in Ireland, not sure about the Yaris Cross because I haven’t been interested in the X.

[TonyHSD]

1 hour ago, Chas G said:

Pity they don't do a 1.5 petrol only yaris cross

They do them but not available in uk. Other eu countries they offer them. Non hybrid cars with modern petrol engines can be a bullet proof cars and stand the time best of all propulsion options available. Perfect choice for those who drive rarely and on a short trips. No Battery issues either 12v or higher voltage traction Battery. 

[BobHos]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Foy said:

The  1.5 Yaris is sold in petrol only in Ireland, not sure about the Yaris Cross because I haven’t been interested in the X.

I should have said that I knew the contactor was trying to close and the indicator lights momentarily disappeared at the same time.

[BobHos]

9 minutes ago, BobHos said:

Sorry getting a bit carried away with the comments, etc and my own lack of clear recall. I remember when I tried to start the car on the 16th there was not enough oomph in the battery to energise the high voltage contactor so it was definitely a battery lack of capacity or capability, I offer my apologies to the Nipon designers,

I should have said that I knew the contactor was trying to close and the indicator lights momentarily disappeared at the same time.

[hind]

5 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

No battery issues either 12v

Not really, there was a guy who tried to find out if his petrol Yaris IV was charging the Battery with the correct voltage. He was driving daily and his milage was also twice the average - yet one day he could not start the car. 

His measurements led him to conclusion that the voltage is too low and the Battery was damaged because of that. 

I don't know how it ended but IMO that's another proof of the faulty Battery batch

[Bernard Foy]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

I think Toyota Ireland sells petrol-only versions in the lower specs but Toyota GB chose to go hybrid-only. I assume it's some combination of homologation fees and fleet-wide CO2 that affected their choices...

Cyker I had quick look in the Toyota Ireland site and thy do sell the 1.5 petrol only Yaris in a six speed manual box, I couldn’t find any petrol only Yaris X on the site they only offer them in hybrids.

[Chas G]

12 hours ago, BobHos said:

I don't understand are you saying that your car has a faulty EMS or that thre is an inherent problem generally in the Cross  EMS? If you jump start with a reasonable 12 volt battery or connect a charger with enough capacity to operate the high voltage contactor the car should be able to go into "READY" mode.

My car doesn't have a faulty EMS. It's just me being paranoid again.

[Chas G]

11 hours ago, anchorman said:

Crikey Chas, fault in the engine management?   You’ll have me selling my Lexus in a bit 😉

Sorry. Just being paranoid again. RAC are refunding me for the Battery replacement which didn't happen. When my car goes in for a service I will ask steven eagell if they can fit the larger capacity Battery.

 

[Chas G]

11 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

They do them but not available in uk. Other eu countries they offer them. Non hybrid cars with modern petrol engines can be a bullet proof cars and stand the time best of all propulsion options available. Perfect choice for those who drive rarely and on a short trips. No battery issues either 12v or higher voltage traction battery. 

I assume insurance would be a problem though for non uk car.

[Chas G]

12 hours ago, MikeSh said:

Automatics usually have an override for the shift lock (and usually involves a screwdriver) and according to the manual my Mk3 does. Have a look in the manual for yours - probably under Shift lock system or similar in the index at the back..

Agreed. There is a pawl which can be used to put car in neutral.

[CCman]

after a 3 day monitoring in sub zero temperatures on my Excel AWD 23 model not only is capacity of Battery not enough but in normal operating conditions if you leave the car 4 to 5 days as my wife did in a airport carpark this will also happen as the electronic hand brake and several other HYBRID components are drawing power at a rate which exceeds normal use of a Battery of this capacity. I have also found the standard FALKEN tyres fitted to this model have little or no wet or cold weather grip mostly being down to being the wrong speed rating 'W' and the 50 profile which is too low I was recommended all season 215/55 SUV tyres. What a difference in the ride quality. Toyota are looking into my Battery findings they agree the drain is a problem.

[jthspace]

58 minutes ago, Chas G said:

I assume insurance would be a problem though for non uk car.

My Eunos is a Japanese import (1993, imported 2015).  Fully Comp with Agreed Value, 5,000 miles a year at under £150 😁.  Road Fund though is a different matter at over twice the insurance cost 😢. But the "smiles" whilst driving is worth it!

 

[Mojo1010]

1 hour ago, Chas G said:

Sorry. Just being paranoid again. RAC are refunding me for the battery replacement which didn't happen. When my car goes in for a service I will ask steven eagell if they can fit the larger capacity battery.

 

Anchorman will fit it for you for free when you buy the Yuasa Battery. If you are still a bit worry about the EMS, he may even swap his lexus for your cross as he is such a nice forum community man 😛

[BobHos]

15 minutes ago, CCman said:

after a 3 day monitoring in sub zero temperatures on my Excel AWD 23 model not only is capacity of battery not enough but in normal operating conditions if you leave the car 4 to 5 days as my wife did in a airport carpark this will also happen as the electronic hand brake and several other HYBRID components are drawing power at a rate which exceeds normal use of a battery of this capacity. I have also found the standard FALKEN tyres fitted to this model have little or no wet or cold weather grip mostly being down to being the wrong speed rating 'W' and the 50 profile which is too low I was recommended all season 215/55 SUV tyres. What a difference in the ride quality. Toyota are looking into my battery findings they agree the drain is a problem.

Hi Chris

I have been carrying out some tests and giving a lot of thought to the Battery issue and I have finally concluded that the Battery isn't faulty. I now think like you that the residual electrical load of the 12 volt system when the car is shut down is far too high and leads to a constant drain on the Battery. The normal charging operation from the main high voltage battery with the car in ready or running mode is more than adequate. I have tested it and a voltage of 14.4 volts is maintained at the battery terminals even under maximum 12 volt load with everything operating. This voltage is more than capable of charging the battery but this depends on the state of charge in the battery at the time and the length of time the car is in run or ready mode. Consequentially, if the length of time that the car is shutdown is high compared to the time it is running the battery will discharge with time to a point where the car can not be started as you and me both found out. A larger battery would certainly allow a longer delay before this happens but it could lead to a false sense of security. As it stands the solutions to a low run time to stationary ratio of use are either to ensure that the Toyota recommendation for operating the car routinely in standby mode for an hour or charging the battery with an external battery charger.

Obviously this appears to be a fairly serious Toyota deign fault. You say that Toyota are looking into the problem, is that at a dealership level or, hopefully, at a higher level? I think that it is crazy that Toyota think that an acceptable solution is to operate thecar routinely for an hour in ready mode.

[jthspace]

Would disabling smart lock / keyless entry as an experiment to see if that would make a difference?  Think I read that on here somewhere.

I didn't realise EHB drew current when applied though.

[TonyHSD]

The ready mode for 30-60 minutes was a recommendation by Toyota during lockdowns or when the car not been used regularly. 
EPB only draws power when engage and disengage, not constantly when applied. You can disable this auto engage when car is off to prevent unnecessary use as often leaving the car only in P is sufficient to secure it, flat roads etc. , plus in freezing cold weather to prevent pads sticking to the discs, or when you leave the car for longer without use. 
It seems other members find out that the major reason for 12v Battery issues are the batteries themselves. These Mutlu batteries seems not up to the standard.
I have an AGM Yuassa fitted as oem in my 13.5 years old Auris that still works after 264000 miles and millions start and stops, along with the hybrid Battery which is made by Panasonic.
 If me as recommended by other members I will buy new Yuassa Battery, fully charge it and install it and will end my problems. 
If anything else is ok with the car I can forgive Toyota for selling cars with a bad batteries, I am sure that they didn’t want that at first place.