Smart Meters

[Mjolinor]

The government have made this into a farce but the truth is that we need it and the utilities need it, it will happen.

[Bper]

17 minutes ago, Mjolinor said:

But they do not have to use the mobile network. The can use your own broadband or comms over the powerline to the local sub, I am sure there will be other options such as satellite that will come along in the next few years.

 

17 minutes ago, Mjolinor said:

But they do not have to use the mobile network. The can use your own broadband or comms over the powerline to the local sub, I am sure there will be other options such as satellite that will come along in the next few years.

As one example many flats have remote electrical distribution which is located within basement areas below ground. The meters are located far from broadband or WiFi etc. Who is going to pay for the installation of comms etc. The metering of supplies is operated by the DCC and this is currently operated over the mobile and radio network direct to DCC computers.

From there energy suppliers can remotely access DCC encrypted servers for the individual readings.The cost for added Comms will need to be met and will not be done for free. As I said this is one example there are thousands more where this will be impractical or cost prohibited.🙂

[Mjolinor]

Multi occupancy dwelling with meter in the basement are ideal for powerline communications. I have installed a few such systems in various places, mostly Scandinavia and Germany.

There are not that many places in the UK that have such a system.

[Bper]

1 minute ago, Mjolinor said:

Multi occupancy dwelling with meter in the basement are ideal for powerline communications. I have installed a few such systems in various places, mostly Scandinavia and Germany.

There are not that many places in the UK that have such a system.

John, please explain what you mean by power line communication.🙂

[Cyker]

They wouldn't need it if they'd invested in power generation and the grid; The problem is they haven't and we're rapidly getting to the point where there won't be enough capacity because we have no new generation coming online any time soon, and with EV adoption increasing that is a massive load they can see coming but are seemingly doing nothing to head off - Instead of sorting that out they are just going to use this to penalize people who they deem are using too much power, if not cut off people remotely 'for the greater good'.

The only reason they "can't" right now is because of the law, but we've now seen how easily they can just change inconvenient laws.

I'll admit I'm being very skeptical, but given the general track record so far I feel this isn't unwarranted. I don't see how anything good will come of this for us.

 

6 minutes ago, Bper said:

John, please explain what you mean by power line communication.🙂

He means using power lines for data transmission - You can use the 240v 50Hz power as a carrier wave to transmit data - They even sell plugs for such things in PC World nowadays  

HAM radio operators hate them as they generate a lot of radio interference, but somehow they're legal!

 

[Rhymes with Paris]

The truth is out there.😱

[Mjolinor]

A signal is injected onto the incoming power cable and received at the local substation. In the UK this is normally about 350 metres, average, from the dwelling with around a hundred per substation but it can be as many as 500 or even more. In other parts of the world it is a lot smaller, for example in the USA only maybe ten dwellings are provided from each MV/LV transformer.

I expect some will be familiar with the Comtrend devices provided with your Youview box from BT. These use powerline communications to allow your TV box to get Internet without having to route wires. The Comtrend ones use a chipset developed in Spain by a company called DS2. People also use their chipset to produce commercial units for utility use.

You can see a box that I designed and installed on this pole. The broadband connection is about 3 miles away, the signal travels down the powerline and a wifi hotspot is created centred at this pole. There is a units every 500 to 1000 metres so it wifi enables the whole area.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7194165,24.0571077,3a,15y,36.29h,102.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgFSWIxk9mhK3PodIoeQk0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu

 

This particular network was situated here because my lab in a nearby technology park. There is another install that I did further North near Larissa where an area of 125 sq Km is wifi enabled. I expect both networks are defunct now, certainly this one has some boxes gone missing, I have not done any maintenance on the network since about 2012

Wikipedia tells it reasonably well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_over_power_lines

 

 

[Mjolinor]

21 minutes ago, Cyker said:

HAM radio operators hate them as they generate a lot of radio interference, but somehow they're legal!

 

That is absolutely not true. I was there when the tests were done and I developed the tests that were done. It was done with the monitoring authority at the time (pre ofcom). Standards were formulated and those are currently used. I think the ISO standard is 14908 if memory serves. Years of work went into those standards, mostly in the USA

Edit.

Yes radio amateurs whinge about them as they whinge about every bit of the radio spectrum that they can no longer use. I have never heard of a single confirmed case where one has been unable to use his licensed frequencies because of power line communications.

There are a lot of rumours about this but they are just rumours.

Radio amateurs feel hard done to because with each passing year they lose access to areas of the spectrum because technology needs it for the public good (smart meters? :))

[Mjolinor]

I wrote a book about it. If you have trouble sleeping it may help:

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?as_sauthors=J+Dickinson&as_q=High+Frequency+Modelling+of+Powerline+Distribution+Networks.&as_occt=title

[Cyker]

Thanks but that looks a bit heavy for me!  

Maybe things have come along since then, but I used to have a friend who was into amateur radio and was showing me what they can pick up - Even fluorescent lighting causes interference they can pick up. It's not so bad for voice comms as they just get pops and buzzing, but it makes it much harder for them to do any sort of digital data comms.

It makes sense to me, as I don't see how powerline data wouldn't generate interference - The cables are unshielded and have no mitigation strategies; In the computing and telecoms world they use twisted pair and coaxial cables specifically to try and cancel out interference (Both incoming and outgoing) from high-frequency data communications, but power cables are often just left in parallel and I've never seen shielded power cables used.

I'm pretty sure there was an investigation into how it might affect DAB radio too some years ago, so there must be some interference, but I can't find the articles for that to check the details.

Do you know how they avoid generating interference? You can get ones that run at gigabit speeds now, and with that sort of frequency they must generate a fair bit of RFI if there aren't any mitigation strategies in place!

It's not really a big issue as there are far fewer HAM radio operators around these days, and most devices are designed to withstand RFI anyway since there is so much of it around!

 

[Mjolinor]

Underground cables are shielded. Overhead work better using a balanced signal particularly from an interference point but that almost doubles the cost of installation. Single injection overhead will radiate but the frequencies used are low by radio standards, around 1 to 30 MHz. The amateur 28MHz band is almost always excluded from use in order to minimise any interference for them. Overhead cables in the UK are being replaced with underground as and when necessary so those long supplies to small villages and single dwellings will disappear eventually due to high maintenance costs.

[Cyker]

Oooh I see! Sorry, we're talking about two related but different things!  

I was talking about the domestic plug-in ones that run over unshielded domestic power cabling for consumer use.

I imagine the ones you're talking about are used by power companies, and are held to higher standards than the domestic ones!

[Mjolinor]

Ah, right, yes. The domestic ones can cause havoc. The design is actually mostly the same but as you say internal wiring is a right hodge podge.

Powerline for utilities always works better with a filter installed at the premises but filters that will pass a hundred amps but remove HF are bulky and expensive.

 

[Cyker]

Yeah I imagine the ferrite chokes we use on things wouldn't be much use on the sort of gear you're talking about  

[Bper]

Hi John,

I understand generally the principles of PLC.I also respect that you have written a book on this so you will have far greater insight to its workings.However can you confirm if this information below regarding PLC is still current today.

The main biggest problem that the PLC is facing to date is that the power wiring in the PLC technology is unshielded and untwisted which means that the wiring will emit large amounts of radio energy, which as a result, will cause interference to the existing users of the same frequency band.  Also, the BPL (Broadband over Power Line) systems will get some interference from the radio signals emitted by the PLC wirings

Should the information above be out of date or not and certainly not wishing to engage in discussions regarding the pros and cons of this technology, should I be asked or informed that my current meter requires replacing I have the write to refuse. Secondly the meter is not owned by the energy supplier. I can call my local power network provider and ask for them to install another dumb meter then give my energy supplier the details of the meter and readings. 

Failing this change my energy supplier.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the largest communication system monitoring smart meters throughout the country currently operated by mobile and radio networks 

 

[Cyker]

The stuff he's talking about is for use by the energy companies, presumably to control the transformers etc.

I don't think many, if any, smart meters use it, as it would be filtered out by the substation before it reached a house. The vast majority of smart meters use normal mobile phone signals to communicate - The early ones even had SIMs in them (Which you could apparently extract and abuse that data connection for  )

That's one of the reasons they delayed switching off 2G, as the majority of the deployed smart meters ran on 3G, and when that was switched off they fell back to 2G. Now they need to replace all of them again with 4/5G-supporting ones before the 2G cut-off date or they will all stop working  

But that is a whole problem in itself as it turns out there is loads of hidden infrastructure (Weather stations, various monitoring equipment etc.) that runs on 3G/2G that is too expensive to replace en masse and nobody knows what to do about it!

[Mjolinor]

I do not think there are any Smart meters using it.

The systems I am talking about are used on the LV. Injected at the sub and received at the house or received via a hot spot wherever you need it. They can also be used on the MV and HV parts of the network by injecting on the high side of the substation transformer and picking up at the HV/MV sub. The higher up you go in voltage, the bigger the networks get. I did some trials in Kansas and we could easily send a signal ten miles before having to repeat.

 

[roadster-rav]

13 hours ago, roadster-rav said:

At the insistence of EON I had a smart meter fitted a couple of years ago. It has never actually worked and I  have always had to submit gas and electricity readings manually or accept their estimated readings. I complain about the smart meter not working time and time again and I get a conciliatory reply from a non-technical person saying it will be dealt with but there is never any follow up. They have even asked me to send a photograph of the meter but still no action to fix it. The portable local information display worked for a few weeks but that is now dead too. My tactic now is to refuse entry to meter readers until something is done, but I am continuing to pay the bills.

I was hoping to be put on a dual rate but of course that couldn't happen so my next car won't be a plug in hybrid!

The channel 5 program was heavily biased in favour of smart meters and was full of half truths about energy savings. Some of us with a bit of technical know-how use in line meters to determine the typical consumption of our appliances and certainly don't need lessons on energy saving which actually have nothing whatsoever to do with smart meters!

Apologies but I made a careless mistake in blaming EDF for this when it should have been EON Next. They are a company which invites questions in their emails but never answers them.

[Roy124]

I have used power line for my LAN for many years.  The system I use works well and I have about 5 adapters throughout the house. Technology moves on and my system has been replaced by Mesh but I will hang on to what works until we move home again. 

I also have smart sockets but I think they are WiFi not powerline controlled.

It's all very well having a smart home but when you sell it could be a nightmare for new owners.

 

[Mjolinor]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

It's all very well having a smart home but when you sell it could be a nightmare for new owners.

 

This home would be an absolute nightmare for anyone else. It has an ethernet and a telephone system throughout. It has three ring mains and three lighting rings plus two coax rings and double satellite feeds distributed throughout it is four floors, a magnified birds nest of huge proportions.

I doubt that anyone could work it out

[Tee_J]

On 2/3/2024 at 7:21 PM, Bper said:

Heavily biased in favour of smart meters is due to the governments net zero policy. It will never favour customers it wasn't designed to.

True...sadly... I also watched that programme - wife and I, expecting to hear something of a more balanced nature. What a pile of crud and a complete waste of one's time.

On 2/3/2024 at 9:07 PM, Mjolinor said:

The can use your own broadband

Wow! 😱 Really?
My energy firm (E-On) have been badgering me with emails and calls as a few of you have mentioned "end of life -blah-blah-black-sheep..." but I keep telling them I'll get back to them as I do know that it is not a requirement to have one.

As I heard from a Martin Lewis programme a few weeks ago, they are pushing the agenda because of the gov't fines being handed out to them if they fail to reach their quota. Of course they are passing on that cost to their customers - despite the massive profits some of them are making! Shocking! (not really! 😜) And as some have mentioned on this subject, they are now penalising their customers who opt to remain on the non-smart meters!

It's pure "evil"!

[Tee_J]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:18 PM, Mjolinor said:

Radio amateurs feel hard done to because with each passing year they lose access to areas of the spectrum because technology needs it for the public good (smart meters? :))

😂

[Bper]

4 minutes ago, Tee_J said:

True...sadly... I also watched that programme - wife and I, expecting to hear something of a more balanced nature. What a pile of crud and a complete waste of one's time.

Wow! 😱 Really?
My energy firm (E-On) have been badgering me with emails and calls as a few of you have mentioned "end of life -blah-blah-black-sheep..." but I keep telling them I'll get back to them as I do know that it is not a requirement to have one.

As I heard from a Martin Lewis programme a few weeks ago, they are pushing the agenda because of the gov't fines being handed out to them if they fail to reach their quota. Of course they are passing on that cost to their customers - despite the massive profits some of them are making! Shocking! (not really! 😜) And as some have mentioned on this subject, they are now penalising their customers who opt to remain on the non-smart meters!

It's pure "evil"!

Tee J, You have a choice change your supplier or contact your local network power provider and ask them to change your meter to a dumb meter if you do not want remote monitoring of your energy usage . You can of course contact a local approved meter installation company and ask them to install one. 

Once it is changed you give the serial number of the meter to your energy supplier along with the new meter readings. 

Please remember unless your energy supplier installed the meter in the first place they do not own this. Should they say they do then ask for proof of ownership. 

They also say that they cannot offer the same tariff if you if you refuse a new smart meter so change supplier if you do not want one.🙂

[roadster-rav]

After having a broken meter for 2 years Eon finally got round to fixing it last week. They replaced both meters and provided a new remote device. But surprise-surprise the technician could only get the electricity meter to register and the gas one still doesn't work. He blamed Eon and I am now waiting for Eon to get back and no doubt blame the installer! What a fiasco! This is what happens when politicians fail to understand technology but interfere anyway.

If you think this is bad wait for the heat-pumps for gas boilers exercise. That will be an even bigger issue when they realize that a heat pumps will be completely impractical for a large majority of homes and the unsuspecting public will face massive extra costs and cold houses.

Going back to the subject of electric cars. I bought a plug-in hybrid two years ago expecting that I could charge it over-night but because my meter never worked the cost per electric mile was barely less than petrol miles. I am now disillusioned and changing back to a non-plug-in hybrid.

 

[Bper]

2 hours ago, roadster-rav said:

After having a broken meter for 2 years Eon finally got round to fixing it last week. They replaced both meters and provided a new remote device. But surprise-surprise the technician could only get the electricity meter to register and the gas one still doesn't work. He blamed Eon and I am now waiting for Eon to get back and no doubt blame the installer! What a fiasco! This is what happens when politicians fail to understand technology but interfere anyway.

If you think this is bad wait for the heat-pumps for gas boilers exercise. That will be an even bigger issue when they realize that a heat pumps will be completely impractical for a large majority of homes and the unsuspecting public will face massive extra costs and cold houses.

Going back to the subject of electric cars. I bought a plug-in hybrid two years ago expecting that I could charge it over-night but because my meter never worked the cost per electric mile was barely less than petrol miles. I am now disillusioned and changing back to a non-plug-in hybrid.

 

 

2 hours ago, roadster-rav said:

After having a broken meter for 2 years Eon finally got round to fixing it last week. They replaced both meters and provided a new remote device. But surprise-surprise the technician could only get the electricity meter to register and the gas one still doesn't work. He blamed Eon and I am now waiting for Eon to get back and no doubt blame the installer! What a fiasco! This is what happens when politicians fail to understand technology but interfere anyway.

If you think this is bad wait for the heat-pumps for gas boilers exercise. That will be an even bigger issue when they realize that a heat pumps will be completely impractical for a large majority of homes and the unsuspecting public will face massive extra costs and cold houses.

Going back to the subject of electric cars. I bought a plug-in hybrid two years ago expecting that I could charge it over-night but because my meter never worked the cost per electric mile was barely less than petrol miles. I am now disillusioned and changing back to a non-plug-in hybrid.

 

Many things are not as they seem: The worst things in life never are.”😀