anyone have an issue with scheduled charging on BZX4?

[BZ4XGrr]

Just now, wivenhoe said:

BZ4XGrr - are all the chargers you have tried AC - have you tried an Ultra DC charger. Do you know what charger they have at the dealers ?  
I ask, as my RZ (similar EV system) AC charging module failed and had to be replaced. In my case, the car just refused to charge on any AC charger but was ok on DC chargers. Just a thought, that there could be an fault with the module and if the dealer has a DC charger then it is using a different module - unlikely though that the dealer does have a DC charger, they are normally 7kw AC chargers. 

We haven't tried a DC charger - and I'm not sure what they have at the dealers. It's not a charger I recognise - but it's an 'always on' charger.

The issue we have is that the dealer has self-confessed to not having much experience with EVs (we've owned the car 5 months and since we ordered it - almost a year ago - we have not seen a single other BZ4X on the road anywhere. So, for us to return the vehicle or diagnose a fault, we're dependent on people who are learning as they go. I would assume that they have tested the charging module - they've been operating under the guidance of Toyota Technical, wherever they are based.

It all seems a bit amateurish.

We have now ended our conversations with the dealer and plan to submit a case to the Motor Ombudsman in the next week or so, as well as possibly get some of the motoring press involved to look into this. 

I don't really accept this is an early adoption thing. Toyota were VERY late to the EV party and Tesla, Nissan etc have been selling EVs since 2009. If you're going to sell an EV then the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations makes it specifically unlawful to fail to disclose material information that would influence someone's decision-making process. Our argument is that we're bought a car with so many constraints that Toyota seemingly are aware of, but fail to publicise in any of the documentation relating to the vehicle. We even told the dealer we were going to install an eON charger and they raised no issues.

If these organisations and governments want people to adopt electric vehicles, the assumption is that things should 'just work' and you don't need either a Phd to decyipher the various incompatibilities between vehicles and chargers, or otherwise require more knowledge about the vehicle than the dealer has. They haven't been able to answer almost any of the questions we've asked about the vehicle since purchase - including why it sometimes beeps 8 times when we lock it, what error code 'Vehicle not plugged [6]' means and myriad other queries.

Of course, occam's razor says that in all likelihood we actually just have a car with a fault, but no-one can definitively tell us either way.

[Mister Mike]

2 hours ago, philip42h said:

When there are millions of EVs plugging in to charge there won't be any spare capacity overnight - instead overnight will likely become peak time for demand.

This is a common misconception. The planned increase in wind power generation alone by 2030 will be enough to charge millions of EVs overnight. Remember that many EVs are only connected overnight for one night in seven. Say, 2 million vehicles on average plugged in, 7kW each. That’s about 14GW. Less with staggered charging. Wind power currently averages 21GW.

[ernieb]

6 hours ago, Mister Mike said:

This is a common misconception. The planned increase in wind power generation alone by 2030 will be enough to charge millions of EVs overnight. Remember that many EVs are only connected overnight for one night in seven. Say, 2 million vehicles on average plugged in, 7kW each. That’s about 14GW. Less with staggered charging. Wind power currently averages 21GW.

That's if they can over come the problem of getting the power connected to the grid and into the right areas of the network.

I seem to remember reading a short while ago of a number of Scottish wind power farms that were still not connected to the grid.

That said there is a Fast Charge station just opened near me with a Starbucks, a couple of wind turbines and I think a Battery storage system. FUUSE, this has just opened recently.

 

[JonathanP]

First Toyota EV released in 1997

[wivenhoe]

I had a replacement charger installed last year. The installer said that all chargers (from I think from last April), had to be smart chargers. This meant that the grid could throttle back charge rates to balance usage against availability. This also meant that the charge didn’t start immediately as the charger had to ‘check in’ with the grid before charging. That doesn’t seem to cause any probs at the moment, but in future it might mean on say a windless night you may go out to a car and find it has not fully charged. 

That’s clearly not BZ4XGrr issue - I understand under the legislation the dealer has 2 attempts to resolve an issue and if it’s a major one, then the car can be rejected. 

[Cyker]

18 hours ago, Mister Mike said:

This is a common misconception. The planned increase in wind power generation alone by 2030 will be enough to charge millions of EVs overnight. Remember that many EVs are only connected overnight for one night in seven. Say, 2 million vehicles on average plugged in, 7kW each. That’s about 14GW. Less with staggered charging. Wind power currently averages 21GW.

I don't think that's right - Everyone I know who has an EV and can charge at home (Admittedly not many) plug theirs in every night in order to replenish what they use in the day, so more like 5-6 nights out of 7 rather than 1.

Also, while there aren't a huge number of EVs on the road at the moment, as more are forced into them that number will increase greatly; There are apparently about 40 million cars on the roads - If even only a 10th of those were EVs - 4 million -  that's already double your figures to 28GW. Half would be what, 140GW?

And that's not accounting for HGV and Bus chargers etc.., both of which would likely need to be charged all night every day and at significantly higher rates than 7kW.

Admittedly, not everyone will be able to charge at home, esp. in cities, and will be forced to rely on the expensive and battery-life shortening rapid charger network, but I'm still quite pessimistic as I just don't see how they can make the numbers work in the time we have...

[wivenhoe]

I think the potential lack of power was a major part of the decision to extend the ban by 5 years. They have also stopped the home charger subsidy to house owners, which slows things down  

Another potential issue is that the home installer has to apply for permission from the DNO to ensure there is enough capacity in the local substation. I can see some permissions being denied, as some of the service stations are finding, remote locations don’t have the capacity in the existing infrastructure. Some service areas are a good way from towns and I read that they could be waiting for more than a year for power to be available.

Its all well and good the politicians making grand statements but without the investment in the infrastructure it will grind to a halt. 

[Cyker]

That will impact it a lot - If you can't charge at home, that removes two of the few big advantages an EV has over a normal car, i.e. Not having to go out of your way to visit a fuel/charge station, and low running costs 

If you have to use public chargers exclusively, EVs become more inconvenient and more expensive to run than most economical petrol, diesel and esp. hybrid cars!!

Everyone I know with an EV *hates* using public infrastructure as it's so hit-and-miss, and even when it works they're just wasting time they feel they could be doing something productive with.

[Mister Mike]

14 hours ago, Cyker said:

I don't think that's right - Everyone I know who has an EV and can charge at home (Admittedly not many) plug theirs in every night in order to replenish what they use in the day, so more like 5-6 nights out of 7 rather than 1.

Also, while there aren't a huge number of EVs on the road at the moment, as more are forced into them that number will increase greatly; There are apparently about 40 million cars on the roads - If even only a 10th of those were EVs - 4 million -  that's already double your figures to 28GW. Half would be what, 140GW?

And that's not accounting for HGV and Bus chargers etc.., both of which would likely need to be charged all night every day and at significantly higher rates than 7kW.

Admittedly, not everyone will be able to charge at home, esp. in cities, and will be forced to rely on the expensive and battery-life shortening rapid charger network, but I'm still quite pessimistic as I just don't see how they can make the numbers work in the time we have...

I have a home charger, and it’s simply not worth the bother of plugging it in every night. I normally charge every 7-10 days. But let’s say I did plug it in every night. Throughout the hours of darkness it would only be providing power for an hour at most, and the hours in question are managed by the electricity provider. It’s the total number of kWh consumed that is important.

The EV transition is expected to take multiple decades. There won’t be 40 million cars on the road by 2030. Or 2040 for that matter. In the meantime the plan exists to greatly increase renewable electricity production, which is already blazing ahead.

[philip42h]

17 minutes ago, Mister Mike said:

There won’t be 40 million cars on the road by 2030 ...

There are currently around 41.3 million cars on the road - but I take your point, the majority are not EVs today ...

The difficulty with forecasts in this space is predicting what will happen in the future and the assumptions we make along the way. I did a couple of sums that folk can throw rocks at ...

Currently we consume 328 TWh per year, with a peak demand of 61.1 GW. This gives an average hourly demand of 37.4 GW which is around 60% of the peak.

I'll assume that:

• By 2050 they are all EVs - it could be sooner or later or not happen at all but it seems a reasonable starting assumption.
• The population / demand for motor vehicles remains exactly as it is today - which almost certainly won't be the case but I'm no futurologist.
• They all have access to a 7kW home charger even though 11kW onboard chargers are becoming commonplace and by 2050 we could have / may need 3-phase everywhere.

If they all plugged in at once that would create a theoretical peak demand of 289GW. Using the same average as 60% of peak gives an average demand of 177 GW. And this isn't going to occur in reality but does give an idea of the potential scale of the demand.

Second sum: we currently travel some 323.6 billion vehicle miles per year. If we continue to do so, and EVs continue to achieve around 3 miles / kWh, that will require 108 TWh per year - that is just a third more than we generate and use today. This corresponds to an average hourly demand of 12.31 GW or, using the same 60% figure, a peak demand of 20.1 GW just to recharge EVs. TBH that seems perfectly achievable ...

Note: I have totally ignored the additional power demand required to replace other fossil fuels - coal, gas and oil - but this is a motoring forum so that's someone else's problem! 😉

And what does this prove? Not that much other than that I like sums ... 🙂 

[wivenhoe]

Who knows what the Battery technology will be in say 5 years time - consumption could improve to 10 miles / kw, range may improve to 600 miles requiring only 1 or 2 charges a month ……

[philip42h]

26 minutes ago, wivenhoe said:

Who knows what the battery technology will be in say 5 years time - consumption could improve to 10 miles / kw, range may improve to 600 miles requiring only 1 or 2 charges a month ……

Indeed, I've no real idea how Battery technology will evolve (and I've made no assumptions on that score).

Consumption won't improve to 10 miles / kWh. Human beings aren't going to get smaller / lighter, and we are unlikely to accept travelling a significantly slower speeds, so the power to move us around will remain pretty much the same. While the ICE is inherently inefficient so that there are efficiency gains to be made, the electric motor is inherently efficient limiting the scope for significant efficiency gains.

Smaller batteries and more frequent charging would probably be better overall for the system - the total amount of power required would be the same. But, for the sake of convenience, we need batteries large enough to serve throughout the day between overnight charges.

[Cyker]

I average nearly 400-500 miles a week...  

But yeah, the whole issue is Battery storage is terrible compared to chemical fuels - It's I think 1 or even 2 orders of magnitude worse, so even with the terrible comparative efficiency of an engine they still have far more energy to play with and can afford to waste it on things like heating and AC without significantly affecting range.

IMHO everything hinges on a breakthrough in Battery tech and a major improvement in the charging infrastructure. I still think EVs will only start to get more popular once they can do bare minimum 300 miles *for real*, although 400 would be better, then their utility would be at least vaguely on par with a normal car.

 

13 hours ago, Mister Mike said:

I have a home charger, and it’s simply not worth the bother of plugging it in every night. I normally charge every 7-10 days. But let’s say I did plug it in every night. Throughout the hours of darkness it would only be providing power for an hour at most, and the hours in question are managed by the electricity provider. It’s the total number of kWh consumed that is important.

Sorry what do you mean you plug in overnight and only get an hour of charge at most?

I would have assumed you'd easily get at least 7-8 hours charge??

 

[philip42h]

9 hours ago, Cyker said:

Sorry what do you mean you plug in overnight and only get an hour of charge at most?

I would have assumed you'd easily get at least 7-8 hours charge??

He means that it takes only an hour to get back to full charge and then charging, obviously, stops.

This would correspond to something around 20 miles a day which is an average commute apparently, so not that surprising.

[Edward Teyssier]

I have a different problem:  the car continually overcharges.     I cannot schedule a charging session with my desired settings.  I set the charge current to 16 amps and the charge  limit to, say, 80% and it ignores my settings and just charges at max current and to 100%.  Nothing I do seems to make any difference.  I've even confirmed my settings by turning the car off and then turn it back on and confirm my settings.  Then plug the car in and it ignores my settings and charges at max current and to 100%! 

[JonathanP]

2 hours ago, Edward Teyssier said:

I have a different problem:  the car continually overcharges.     I cannot schedule a charging session with my desired settings.  I set the charge current to 16 amps and the charge  limit to, say, 80% and it ignores my settings and just charges at max current and to 100%.  Nothing I do seems to make any difference.  I've even confirmed my settings by turning the car off and then turn it back on and confirm my settings.  Then plug the car in and it ignores my settings and charges at max current and to 100%! 

Where are you setting the amps and limit?

If you are using a 3 pin plug it probably wouldn't be able to control the charging

 

[karen230674]

We have been having issues with charging at home. Got zappi and our energy supplier is octopus. Every now and again the car just will not charge. Tried various things but still every now and then we go to the car and it hasn't charged. First tried to schedule it on the zappi, then tried octopus app and now we have the car set up with schedule and zappi set to fast. I have thought about the times when the car doesn't charge and it seems to be when I've stopped the car and accessed the boot. I tried my theory tonight. Stopped the car, got my things out of the boot, closed boot, put the charger in the car and said charge delayed as it usually does. Went out 5 mins after charging was supposed to start and not charging. Unplugged the charger, checked the schedule by starting the car, reconnected the car and locked the car....started charging. Every time the car doesn't charge I've used the boot. What am I doing wrong?

[egg]

21 hours ago, karen230674 said:

We have been having issues with charging at home. Got zappi and our energy supplier is octopus. Every now and again the car just will not charge. Tried various things but still every now and then we go to the car and it hasn't charged. First tried to schedule it on the zappi, then tried octopus app and now we have the car set up with schedule and zappi set to fast. I have thought about the times when the car doesn't charge and it seems to be when I've stopped the car and accessed the boot. I tried my theory tonight. Stopped the car, got my things out of the boot, closed boot, put the charger in the car and said charge delayed as it usually does. Went out 5 mins after charging was supposed to start and not charging. Unplugged the charger, checked the schedule by starting the car, reconnected the car and locked the car....started charging. Every time the car doesn't charge I've used the boot. What am I doing wrong?

Am i right in thinking you plugged the charging cable in ready for your scheduled charging session, and locked your car. Then went and unlocked/accessed the car and locked it again?

If that is what you've done then that is your issue.

When you unlock your car, it unlocks the charging cable, and you have to unplug, replug the cable in so it locks in place again, before locking your car again, otherwise the charging cable isn't locked anymore and the car won't charge.

[Andy BZ4x]

10 hours ago, egg said:

Am i right in thinking you plugged the charging cable in ready for your scheduled charging session, and locked your car. Then went and unlocked/accessed the car and locked it again?

If that is what you've done then that is your issue.

When you unlock your car, it unlocks the charging cable, and you have to unplug, replug the cable in so it locks in place again, before locking your car again, otherwise the charging cable isn't locked anymore and the car won't charge.

Agree with this totally, I had this issue in the early days of ownership the realised what was happening. after the car is plugged in ready for the night charge, if i have to unlock the car I now alway unplug the cable & reconnect before locking again, never had a failed charge since.

[paulzog]

You don't need a 'compatible charger', mine is an old Growatt 'dumb charger' & the car does all of the scheduling set by me to take advantage of the cheap rate. It is ambitious to expect the supply company, app, charger & car to agree with each other. You need to decide which is your favoured control method & turn all the others off otherwise you get conflicts & no charge. The companies might say it all works together seamlessly but this is rarely the case. K.I.S.S.