ECVT v DSG

[Jimota]

Just back from a 3 month visit to Australia and a 2 week cruise around New Zealand.  During that time I hired 2 cars and built up a fair amount of mileage.  First vehicle was a Toyota Corolla Hatchback Hybrid which never missed a beat and was an absolute pleasure to drive.  I preferred the drivers seat as it gave a little more support than my Yaris Cross.  However, not having the elevated height of an SUV, I struggled a little bit getting in and out of the vehicle.  Overall fuel consumption returned 72 mpg.

Second vehicle was a Kia Sportage ICE with a DCT gearbox.  I liked the raised height of this SUV and the exterior design.  I was also impressed with the interior which was light, modern with an easy to view dashboard.  Seats were very supportive.  Driving on the Australian highways and freeways this car behaved quite well.  It was another story when it encountered the hills and country roads of rural Western Australia.  The DCT gearbox was very jerky at junctions, struggled to select the appropriate gear going uphill and downhill and seemed to stay in any gear for far to long.  There was a slight improvement when I flicked from eco drive mode to sports mode and gear changes became more responsive.  This car was virtually brand new as it only had 450 kilometres on the clock.  Overall fuel consumption was 34 mpg.

On returning home it was a real pleasure to be reunited with my Yaris Cross.  It was looked after by my son and there were no issues either with the Battery or the brake disks rusting up.  The main reason why I raised this topic was to show how impressed I am with the Toyota brand, in particular with the Yaris Cross and the ECVT gearbox.  Looking for a new car last year, I nearly put off my visit to the Toyota dealer when I found out that the Yaris Cross had this type of gearbox but  I can now say it’s an excellent system.  It’s so smooth, effortless and doesn’t have the drawbacks of conventional and DSG boxes.  I always find it difficult to explain in layman’s terms how this system works but my neighbours seemed to have understood me as two of them now have shiny new Cross’s and another has a C-HR after my recommendation.

[anchorman]

8 minutes ago, Jimota said:

Just back from a 3 month visit to Australia and a 2 week cruise around New Zealand.  During that time I hired 2 cars and built up a fair amount of mileage.  First vehicle was a Toyota Corolla Hatchback Hybrid which never missed a beat and was an absolute pleasure to drive.  I preferred the drivers seat as it gave a little more support than my Yaris Cross.  However, not having the elevated height of an SUV, I struggled a little bit getting in and out of the vehicle.  Overall fuel consumption returned 72 mpg.

Second vehicle was a Kia Sportage ICE with a DCT gearbox.  I liked the raised height of this SUV and the exterior design.  I was also impressed with the interior which was light, modern with an easy to view dashboard.  Seats were very supportive.  Driving on the Australian highways and freeways this car behaved quite well.  It was another story when it encountered the hills and country roads of rural Western Australia.  The DCT gearbox was very jerky at junctions, struggled to select the appropriate gear going uphill and downhill and seemed to stay in any gear for far to long.  There was a slight improvement when I flicked from eco drive mode to sports mode and gear changes became more responsive.  This car was virtually brand new as it only had 450 kilometres on the clock.  Overall fuel consumption was 34 mpg.

On returning home it was a real pleasure to be reunited with my Yaris Cross.  It was looked after by my son and there were no issues either with the battery or the brake disks rusting up.  The main reason why I raised this topic was to show how impressed I am with the Toyota brand, in particular with the Yaris Cross and the ECVT gearbox.  Looking for a new car last year, I nearly put off my visit to the Toyota dealer when I found out that the Yaris Cross had this type of gearbox but  I can now say it’s an excellent system.  It’s so smooth, effortless and doesn’t have the drawbacks of conventional and DSG boxes.  I always find it difficult to explain in layman’s terms how this system works but my neighbours seemed to have understood me as two of them now have shiny new Cross’s and another has a C-HR after my recommendation.

I’ve worked on a lot of transmissions in my days Jim and some are good and others not so much.  There is one that shines and it’s the current Toyota ecvt which is virtually flawless.  Some journalists complain that the revs flare but they don’t understand how it all works and in later versions like we have, it’s far less noticeable.   Toyota have a plan to remove manual transmission because of the fundamental weakness - the driver, isn’t compatible with emissions legislation and I’m convinced they have got it right.  

[SinglePointSafety]

I've had a few VAG cars with DSG boxes, which ranged from 'OK' to 'decidedly jerky' (jerky mainly on the 1-2 change and worse when cold). Even the best of these is nowhere near as seamless at the eCVT box on our YC. Leaving aside the fact that there's an ICE running under the bonnet, the drive is as smooth as our EV and makes the car a joy to drive around town, especially in those pesky multi-storey car parks with their steep ramps

[Stopeter44]

4 hours ago, Jimota said:

Looking for a new car last year, I nearly put off my visit to the Toyota dealer when I found out that the Yaris Cross had this type of gearbox but

Toyota call it eCVT, but in reality it has no comparison with a mechanical CVT system. It's a mechanical simple combination of two electric motors and the ICE via a planetary gear system. Like you, after spending, literally hours, understanding how it works, I find it impossible to explain to anybody.

[TonyHSD]

+1 for eCVT. I never enjoyed any other transmission more than these. The only downside on these is constant heavy load aka high speeds maintaining. 
In any other cases nothing comes close except full electric cars. 

[anchorman]

1 hour ago, Stopeter44 said:

Toyota call it eCVT, but in reality it has no comparison with a mechanical CVT system. It's a mechanical simple combination of two electric motors and the ICE via a planetary gear system. Like you, after spending, literally hours, understanding how it works, I find it impossible to explain to anybody.

Not everyone at Toyota can explain it.  Where the system scores is in the control because they can couple the gear set via MG1 to give this stepless gearing that always used to need band or cone clutches.  Now just the motor does it and furthermore it can run backwards giving overdrive function.  John Kelly (Weber Auto) gives the best explanation in my opinion.  

[anchorman]

2 hours ago, SinglePointSafety said:

I've had a few VAG cars with DSG boxes, which ranged from 'OK' to 'decidedly jerky' (jerky mainly on the 1-2 change and worse when cold). Even the best of these is nowhere near as seamless at the eCVT box on our YC. Leaving aside the fact that there's an ICE running under the bonnet, the drive is as smooth as our EV and makes the car a joy to drive around town, especially in those pesky multi-storey car parks with their steep ramps

These “other” systems like DSG or Hyundai/Kia are getting better but it’s the control that isn’t quite smart enough yet.  They also have unnecessary complications like twin clutches and even the Honda system which is nearest to our Toyotas has a cone clutch.  Anything with a clutch generates wear debris and that gets in the oil.  You can drop really old very high mileage oil out of a Toyota hybrid and it looks like new.  There is one other gem of an auto transmission and that’s the Skyactive in a Mazda.  It’s a conventional torque converter and a Mazda designed 6 speed auto and it’s utterly smooth and trouble free.  

[SinglePointSafety]

23 minutes ago, anchorman said:

It’s a conventional torque converter and a Mazda designed 6 speed auto and it’s utterly smooth and trouble free.  

Totally agree anchorman - the torque converter autos largely fell out of favour because of the efficiency losses, but they can be made to be extremely smooth. I believe manufacturers have employed some clever engineering to reduce energy losses and perhaps more car makers are/will be using them

[Cyker]

6 hours ago, anchorman said:

Some journalists complain that the revs flare but they don’t understand how it all works and in later versions like we have, it’s far less noticeable.

It's one of the more disingenuous complaints from reviewers - Essentially, it flares because they can't drive properly. In Toyota hybrids and normal CVTs, the revs are tied directly to how much you're pressing the accelerator; If it's revving a lot, it's because of the driver - The car's just doing what it's told!

I've never been a fan of autoboxes, as I always found I was better at gear selection in my manuals than any autobox, and I always found autoboxes to react too slowly for my liking, especially off the line, and then there're the horrendous repair costs when they need maintenance.

The only exceptions are old torque converters - Which IMHO were the only reliable and robust autoboxes, mostly out of favour due to the large efficiency losses, but now seemingly making a comeback as they can now 'lock up', reducing the losses to the same as any other automatic- and the Toyota hybrid system, which I have found to be much more responsive and almost EV-like, and it's proven to be reliability as there are not rubbing surfaces; The whole 'power split device' system is just permanently interlocked gears, so there's nothing to wear out! It's such a clever system - Effectively using a planetary gear set as a differential to link the 3 parts together (i.e. MG2/Wheels, MG1 and the ICE). Because of this it's the only hybrids system, to my knowledge, that can switch between being a series (Electric motor provides all the motion, ICE is just a generator) or parallel (Electric and ICE provide motion independently) hybrid at all speeds and RPMs.

 

[MikeSh]

5 hours ago, anchorman said:

Anything with a clutch generates wear debris and that gets in the oil.

That's not quite true. DSG (VAG) clutches are wet, so that is probably the case, but DCTs are usually dry and placed where a normal, manual clutch would be, so debris will fall into the bell housing.

5 hours ago, SinglePointSafety said:

the torque converter autos largely fell out of favour because of the efficiency losses

True. I was surprised that the MINI we had several years ago was actually a TC transmission - I think a BMW engine/transmission. It was very, very good and gave decent mpg.

4 hours ago, Cyker said:

now seemingly making a comeback as they can now 'lock up',

LOL. My Carina II of about 1990 vintage had a 5 speed TC box with possible lockup in 5th. It's not a remotely new idea.

[Hybrid21]

My previous vehicle a Volvo XC60 had the 8 speed Volvo geartronic auto gearbox which I was very impressed with. Very smooth and always seemed to find the right gear. Never driven a DSG so can't comment, but they do sound good when you hear them changing up on acceleration  👍

The main issue I have with any automatic is that you cannot tell how torquey your engine is, as you can with a manual transmission. 

Autos are easier to drive and more relaxing but do take away a good bit of driving skill and pleasure which I do miss sometimes.

 

[Sooty]

I find the easiest way to describe the Toyota ECVT is saying it works similar to the old "Spriograph" toy that we used to have as kids. If you hold one ring, spin another you get a pattern, hold a different ring and you get a different pattern.

[Tommy X]

The VAG 7 speed DSG are dry clutch normally used on low torque engines, wet (oil) clutches are used on high torque engines, I agree the Toyota ecvt system is seamless and very easy to drive but nowhere near as quiet as a VAG DSG, the gear changes are very smooth (almost seamless) and an option to change gear manually. I agree with Don re Mazda torque converter boxes, I wanted to order one but the waiting time compared to the manual put me off. 

[Jimota]

It’s only a matter of time when automatic gearboxes will outnumber the manual systems in the UK.  With the increase of electric and hybrid cars, this might come about sooner than we think.  Looking at the the USA and Australia where the vast majority of their vehicles are automatic, there are many drivers who have no experience of driving manuals.  However, and I can only speak for Australia, their reasons for owning automatics is somewhat different from how we view things at home.

 

In Western Australia, electric cars and hybrids are not seen in huge numbers.  The UTE (it’s a utility vehicle which looks like a pick up) is king and the vast majority have 4 wheel drive.  Go to the other side of the country in Sydney and it’s a completely different scenario.  Lot’s more hatchback cars but the UTE is still very popular.  Just to show how Australia differs from ourselves I have listed the 3 most popular vehicles in terms of sales in 2023 is as follows:

 

Ford Ranger

Toyota HiLux

Isuzu D-Max

 

All of these cars are UTEs (Quasi pickup trucks).  Interestingly, the number 4 best seller is the Toyota Rav 4 which as many of you will know has a 4 wheel drive derivative.

 

Although the Ford Ranger took over the number one slot from the Toyota HiLux in 2023, Toyota is releasing a facelifted model this month and a brand new model sometime in 2025.  The above figures might indicate that Ford is the number one car company in Australia but look at the total sales numbers for 2023 below:

 

Toyota                   231000

Mazda                   100008

Ford                        87800

 

If you check different sources on line, you will see some variations in the figures but it is clear Toyota is the number one car company in Australia by a long way.  I know that I have wandered off from the main topic and hope I haven’t bored you too much with facts and figures but thought it would be interesting to see how Toyota is viewed down under.

 

[Cyker]

The one place automated manuals and double-clutch gearboxs work well are on track - They feel much nicer and at home there, but in real world use I really don't like them, esp. when doing manoeuvres like the 97-point turn or in stop-start traffic or when trying to emerge on a fast junction of roundabout.

 

18 hours ago, MikeSh said:

LOL. My Carina II of about 1990 vintage had a 5 speed TC box with possible lockup in 5th. It's not a remotely new idea.

Wasn't suggesting it was, but lockup TCs are still relatively rare for some reason; The only normalish modern cars I know they're in are the automatic versions of the GR Corolla and GT/GR86 (And soon the GR Yaris from what I hear!)

That's partly why they died off so suddenly after being the dominant form of autobox, because without the locking function, they waste vast amounts of energy in pumping losses, which slaughters their mpg and emissions ratings vs every other type of gearbox, and precipitated the shift (haha) to single and double clutch automated manuals.

If they'd used locking ones back then, they wouldn't have had that problem since there is almost no transmission loss once they lock up, and I reckon a lot more autoboxs would be TC now, rather than the double and single clutch type which still seems to be the most prevalent.

 

[anchorman]

22 hours ago, MikeSh said:

That's not quite true. DSG (VAG) clutches are wet, so that is probably the case, but DCTs are usually dry and placed where a normal, manual clutch would be, so debris will fall into the bell housing.

True. I was surprised that the MINI we had several years ago was actually a TC transmission - I think a BMW engine/transmission. It was very, very good and gave decent mpg.

LOL. My Carina II of about 1990 vintage had a 5 speed TC box with possible lockup in 5th. It's not a remotely new idea.

I would have thought it obvious that a clutch outside the box won’t contaminate the oil but since it isn’t, let the record show that I was referring to clutches inside the box.  

[bathtub tom]

On 3/3/2024 at 5:56 PM, Stopeter44 said:

Toyota call it eCVT, but in reality it has no comparison with a mechanical CVT system. It's a mechanical simple combination of two electric motors and the ICE via a planetary gear system. Like you, after spending, literally hours, understanding how it works, I find it impossible to explain to anybody.

If you can get your hear around how a differential works, then you're on your way to understanding Toyota's epicyclic gearbox.

I was surprised my daughter's,hybrid, Niro had an automated manual 'box, although I'm sure many here would appreciate the facility of a button under the dash to use the traction Battery to charge the 12v Battery to get the damn thing going when the 12v battery's flat!

I find the description of Renault's hybrid transmission interesting. AIUI, it always pulls away from stationary using electric power, then using dog clutches and electric motors to spin the 'box internals up to speed, it uses the ICE, obviating the need for a friction clutch. But who would trust French technology?

I like the operation of sliding pulley CVT. It was quite trouble free on Mobylette mopeds and Yamaha golf carts (where it used the belt slipping as a clutch!)

[Stopeter44]

2 minutes ago, bathtub tom said:

But who would trust French technology?

What's wrong with French technology ?

[jthspace]

1 hour ago, bathtub tom said:

I like the operation of sliding pulley CVT. It was quite trouble free on Mobylette mopeds and Yamaha golf carts (where it used the belt slipping as a clutch!)

The first usage of a CVT in an automobile was the 1958 DAF 600. Volvo Cars bought the DAF automobiles division in 1972 refining the CVT into the Volvo Variomatic and popularizing its benefits in cars around the world.

[MikeSh]

58 minutes ago, bathtub tom said:

I like the operation of sliding pulley CVT. It was quite trouble free on Mobylette mopeds and Yamaha golf carts

I've had a few CVTs including the 'original' DAF with rubber belts and full speed in either direction. The twin belts also acted as a limited slip differential (no actual diff) which turned out handy in a very muddy field one day.

The problem with belt CVTs is that they can't handle the power/torque of bigger engines and heavier cars. About 1.5L seems to be the accepted limit, so mopeds, etc, are no problem. There was big hope for a disc version that would handle much higher powers some years back, which I think actually went into the Nissan Primera (?) with a 2L-ish engine, but it seems to have died out for whatever reason.

[MikeSh]

4 minutes ago, jthspace said:

The first usage of a CVT in an automobile was the 1958 DAF 600. Volvo Cars bought the DAF automobiles division in 1972 refining the CVT into the Volvo Variomatic and popularizing its benefits in cars around the world.

We cross-posted there. That's correct. Mine was a DAF55, which I owned around 1974, but it wasn't new then.

Volvo hit the problem with power limitations and the Variomatic was only used in the 340 with iirc a 1.4L engine. It was a much heavier car than the DAFs and was generally considered a bit sluggish. There was a 2L 'GT' version (360?) but that was only available with a manual box.

The bigger Volvos (at that time anyway) like the 240 used Borg-Warner slush boxes. (We had 2 of those 3-4 decades ago.)

[hind]

14 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

it seems to have died out for whatever reason.

I think the main reason is that the engine acts weird (for the people used to drive TC or manual gearboxes) with the CVT. Same thing applies to eCVT. I had to really ignore the fact that engine revs and the speed or acceleration does not match gas pedal position. The experience resembles a slipping clutch and this makes people uncomfortable 😄 It's more like a boat or jet engine, where spooling up doesn't equal faster movement and lowering the engine power doesn't mean you are going slower. One has to ignore the audible feedback from the ICE and just focus on the desired acceleration. But no other gearbox acts like that so if you are not used to, you freak out at first 😄 and freaking out customers is not something car dealers like - I guess.

[TonyHSD]

Who on their right mind will prefer a manual transmission car in current overcrowded roads,  traffic jams are horrible here in the south, it’s like you have been a carriage part of a train not a single car 🫢 . Plus manual transmission does not make you a better driver, actual  it’s opposite, many drivers have bad habits and poor driving behaviour just because they are so much irritated by their manual cars. Here Toyota hybrids shines , the smoothest, the quietest and most relaxed drive of all cars, similar to bev. 
Just glide along the motorway, in cities or heavy traffic. 👍

[hind]

8 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Who on their right mind will prefer a manual transmission car in current overcrowded roads,

Well, for example someone who doesn't constantly drive in traffic jams and can get the same car for 2000 GBP less just by sticking to well known to him manual transmission, like every previous car he owned? 😉 

[TonyHSD]

1 minute ago, hind said:

Well, for example someone who doesn't constantly drive in traffic jams and can get the same car for 2000 GBP less just by sticking to well known to him manual transmission, like every previous car he owned? 😉 

Agreed 👍