Want to put a Toyota engine in a Kei van… but which one?

[uncle silvia]

Hello all 👋🏻

Ok, I know this isn’t a Toyota but please hear me out! 😁👍

Here is my rare 1998 Subaru Domingo that was imported from Japan at some point.

I bought it recently with no engine fitted (came with 2 which are 1200cc 3cyl with 61bhp) but had a dead CVT gearbox. I’m hoping to put it back on the road as a fun daily driver.

I’ve been looking around for a replacement gearbox which now seems impossible in the UK and still very difficult in the rest of Europe where some of these were sold!

So this now leads me to consider totally different engine options but on a bit of a budget!?

The van being rear engined and RWD and the engine being under the boot floor, limits my options if I want to keep my boot space.
I also want it to be fun but reliable enough for daily driving. 

I’m also a massive Toyota fan and have a Lexus LS400 and a 1981 Toyota Corolla that’s getting a Lexus V8 put in it. If I can put a Toyota engine in the van it will be a perfect fit in the set! 👍

The Toyota IQ with its 1300cc 1NR-FE caught my eye mainly because of its unusual gearbox design having the drive shafts infront of the engine. This configuration would work well in the back of my van. I’m wondering if any other Toyota engines would mate up to that gearbox? Maybe the 1500cc 2NR-FE or similar? Maybe even an older engine that has less electronics?? A little more power won’t hurt 😁.

That’s as far as my knowledge goes at this stage, so what can you guys tell me about them? 

- Reliability?
- Engine availability?
- Ease of wiring for shifter/ECU/dash etc? (
(Im hoping it hasn’t got 10000 sensors and - ECUs to deal with?)
Overall engine simplicity?
Safe tuning possibilities?
Things to look out for?

I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible but having something with good reliability, driveability, economy and if I can increase its performance from its stock 61bhp to keep up with modern traffic that would be a bonus. Basically the perfect daily 👍.

Any thoughts and assistance would be gratefully received, and even other engine suggestions. If I go ahead with this of course I’ll keep you posted 😁

Thanks all 😁👍

[Mjolinor]

What you want is a Smart car subframe and running gear. Rear engine, petrol or diesel and probably very easy to fit as a complete unit.

[flash22]

iirc isn't that a Scooby Sumo

 

A quick look shows it is a 1.2 EF12

the IQ uses the 1.33 1NRFE, the 2NR isnt that common in the UK

 

 

the main issue is the engine lays on its side so the oil pick-up system will need to be modified on anything you fit plus many other factors

https://uk.subaruownersclub.com/forums/topic/19698-subaru-domingo-libero-sambar-vw-bodykit-project-for-sale/

 

Gearbox wise it is a Jatco eCVT from the Justy, not sure about the model perhaps you can post it

[Cyker]

Bwaaaa that's so cute!   

EV conversion....?

[uncle silvia]

On 3/18/2024 at 3:58 PM, Mjolinor said:

What you want is a Smart car subframe and running gear. Rear engine, petrol or diesel and probably very easy to fit as a complete unit.

I’ve looked into Smart Car engines and it turns out they are massively over complicated so that’s out unfortunately. 
Even the Smart car owners say don’t bother. 

[uncle silvia]

On 3/18/2024 at 4:54 PM, flash22 said:

iirc isn't that a Scooby Sumo

 

A quick look shows it is a 1.2 EF12

the IQ uses the 1.33 1NRFE, the 2NR isnt that common in the UK

 

 

the main issue is the engine lays on its side so the oil pick-up system will need to be modified on anything you fit plus many other factors

https://uk.subaruownersclub.com/forums/topic/19698-subaru-domingo-libero-sambar-vw-bodykit-project-for-sale/

 

Gearbox wise it is a Jatco eCVT from the Justy, not sure about the model perhaps you can post it

The Domingo was the JDM replacement for the Sumo. After the sumo sales stopped in the U.K. with the old model, this model did continue in Japan and under several different names, in Europe.

Yes the van normally has the EF12 which is a “lay-down” version of the Justy engine.

If I decide to fit a different “stand-up” engine, it will hopefully be able to go up through the floor hatch into the boot space and then I’ll build a false floor above it. This will keep the engine in the right orientation.

I have since spoken to a mate who is a Toyota Tech and he says the IQ engine management is very complex so not ideal for this project. However the gearbox seems to still be a basic unit so am wondering if I can adapt an older, simpler engine to work with the backwards box. 
 

 

 

[APS]

I guess one question is; would you be willing to sacrifice some boot space? Trying to package a larger engine neatly under that floor will certainly through a flock of engineering challenges your way.

Maybe a Porsche engine?

 

"We want to go to the moon. Not because it's easy, but because it's hard!" - JFK

[uncle silvia]

On 3/18/2024 at 8:23 PM, Cyker said:

Bwaaaa that's so cute!   

EV conversion....?

It is a quirky little thing lol 😜 

EV has been mentioned and Ive seen one done in Australia…….. but I’m a petrolhead and want a petrol engine in there. It’s what I know and love! 😁👍

[Cyker]

I wonder if you could fit an 8NR-FTS in there... it's only 1.2L...   

 

[Mjolinor]

2 hours ago, uncle silvia said:

I’ve looked into Smart Car engines and it turns out they are massively over complicated so that’s out unfortunately. 
Even the Smart car owners say don’t bother. 

Well I have run smart cars for 15 years and there is absolutely nothing complicated about them. I currently have a couple of 451 diesels that I have run for the last 8 years and they are excellent quality and reliability. The simplest would be a 2009 451 CDI 45. No DPF or any of the other crud they now make compulsory for diesels.

I don't think I have ever met anyone who has owned and looked after a Smart that thinks they are complicated. I suppose they may appear that way to people that don't repair/maintain their own cars.

 

Unfortunately if you want a petrol then Smart is out unless you can find a Brabus. The petrol engines are only good for 60k miles before rebuild.

 

 

[flash22]

The gearbox is also laid on its side, the sump is on the side compared to a standard box

electrical is always going to be complex no matter what with anything modern

 

 

[Cyker]

Realistically I think the best bet will be some sort of bike engine...

[uncle silvia]

On 3/21/2024 at 10:16 PM, Cyker said:

I wonder if you could fit an 8NR-FTS in there... it's only 1.2L...   

 

Interesting option but I’ve decided to start looking at older 90s engines for reliability and simplicity 👌

[uncle silvia]

On 3/21/2024 at 11:05 PM, Mjolinor said:

Well I have run smart cars for 15 years and there is absolutely nothing complicated about them. I currently have a couple of 451 diesels that I have run for the last 8 years and they are excellent quality and reliability. The simplest would be a 2009 451 CDI 45. No DPF or any of the other crud they now make compulsory for diesels.

I don't think I have ever met anyone who has owned and looked after a Smart that thinks they are complicated. I suppose they may appear that way to people that don't repair/maintain their own cars.

 

Unfortunately if you want a petrol then Smart is out unless you can find a Brabus. The petrol engines are only good for 60k miles before rebuild.

 

 

I did look at the Smart diesels but they do have quite low power (I know they can be remapped) and I have heard issues with them.

As for the petrol model, I was looking at the 451 999cc turbo which is a Mitsubishi engine and is the same engine that Brabus tuned to make their version.

The complexity doesn’t come with general maintenance but when you transplant the whole lot into a different vehicle. They have lots of modules and sensors throughout the car that are needed to run the engine. Many Smart specialists have told me so.

[Cyker]

Yeah that'll be a problem with any vaguely modern engine alas; The trick is finding an old engine that isn't so complex but that has the power and compactness you're after, as older engines tend to have worse power-volume ratios, which is why I was thinking a bike engine might be a better bet.

[Mjolinor]

59 minutes ago, uncle silvia said:

I did look at the Smart diesels but they do have quite low power (I know they can be remapped) and I have heard issues with them.

As for the petrol model, I was looking at the 451 999cc turbo which is a Mitsubishi engine and is the same engine that Brabus tuned to make their version.

The complexity doesn’t come with general maintenance but when you transplant the whole lot into a different vehicle. They have lots of modules and sensors throughout the car that are needed to run the engine. Many Smart specialists have told me so.

You are correct there.

I know nothing of the Mitsubishi versioned ones at all. Never messed with them though have driven a few.

I only have experience with the Mercedes versions of both petrol and diesel. At 45 BHP for the 451 non DPF version it is quite low but certainly in the Smart they are pretty nippy though it is low. Good gearing and a Getrag gearbox give you a good solid base to start with. I don't suppose your intended target will be any heavier than the Smart so it should be OK but as you say the plethora of add ons that are needed to make it work will be an onerous task to get going. I imagine that will be true for any power unit made after 1995 or so.

 

 

 

[uncle silvia]

On 3/22/2024 at 9:33 AM, flash22 said:

The gearbox is also laid on its side, the sump is on the side compared to a standard box

electrical is always going to be complex no matter what with anything modern

 

 

Yes that’s why I’ll consider standing it up through through the removable floor hatch in the boot area and then building a false floor. 
 

im also looking at pre-canbus engines now.

[uncle silvia]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

Yeah that'll be a problem with any vaguely modern engine alas; The trick is finding an old engine that isn't so complex but that has the power and compactness you're after, as older engines tend to have worse power-volume ratios, which is why I was thinking a bike engine might be a better bet.

Yes that’s my plan now but maybe combining it with the backwards gearbox from the IQ. 
 

Bike engines are unfortunately no good for daily driving and you have to work out how to create a reverse gear.

[uncle silvia]

47 minutes ago, Mjolinor said:

You are correct there.

I know nothing of the Mitsubishi versioned ones at all. Never messed with them though have driven a few.

I only have experience with the Mercedes versions of both petrol and diesel. At 45 BHP for the 451 non DPF version it is quite low but certainly in the Smart they are pretty nippy though it is low. Good gearing and a Getrag gearbox give you a good solid base to start with. I don't suppose your intended target will be any heavier than the Smart so it should be OK but as you say the plethora of add ons that are needed to make it work will be an onerous task to get going. I imagine that will be true for any power unit made after 1995 or so.

 

 

 

Yes that’s what put me off the Smart idea.

 

[Mjolinor]

A BMW R series boxer engine could be a good choice.

No pesky electronics, two cylinder flat twin. I don't know what you would use for a gearbox, possibly Citroen 2CV would be a good choice.

I would not recommend the 2CV engine, people replace them with the BMW Boxer engine quite a lot.

 

[flash22]

Something from a Daihatsu maybe, do you want to stay auto or go manual

[uncle silvia]

1 hour ago, Mjolinor said:

A BMW R series boxer engine could be a good choice.

No pesky electronics, two cylinder flat twin. I don't know what you would use for a gearbox, possibly Citroen 2CV would be a good choice.

I would not recommend the 2CV engine, people replace them with the BMW Boxer engine quite a lot.

 

My friend has a 2cv hillclimb car with a BMW motorbike engine and supercharger fitted. It’s great in that as it’s sooooo light and it’s a race car. However, motorbike engines are no good in daily driven road cars as they are too highly strung and you have to sit at high revs to get any power.

 

[uncle silvia]

21 minutes ago, flash22 said:

Something from a Daihatsu maybe, do you want to stay auto or go manual

I’ve been looking at some Daihatsu engines but unless you go with a rare turbo model they are still very underpowered. If I’m going for a swap that needs some fab work etc I may as well have a bit more grunt while I’m at it 😁

I really want to swap to manual if I can.

[Mjolinor]

Just now, uncle silvia said:

My friend has a 2cv hillclimb car with a BMW motorbike engine and supercharger fitted. It’s great in that as it’s sooooo light and it’s a race car. However, motorbike engines are no good in daily driven road cars as they are too highly strung and you have to sit at high revs to get any power.

 

Not so with the R series Airhead. It is an engine that will run all day every day. Easily pull away from 1200 rpm up to the red line. The later models like the Hexhead and the Oilhead are as you describe but the early Airheads are good for any low rev high torque application. The engine design is over a hundred years old. BMW nicked it in the 1920s. If you get a Nikasil one from 1984 ish they are good for 500,000 miles without any problems.

 

[uncle silvia]

2 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

Not so with the R series Airhead. It is an engine that will run all day every day. Easily pull away from 1200 rpm up to the red line. The later models like the Hexhead and the Oilhead are as you describe but the early Airheads are good for any low rev high torque application. The engine design is over a hundred years old. BMW nicked it in the 1920s. If you get a Nikasil one from 1984 ish they are good for 500,000 miles without any problems.

 

Ok I’ll do some more research but I’m still uncertain about it.