Motorway Speed Limit

[Roy124]

@Haliotis deleted 

 

[Roy124]

@Cyker once travelling on the M180 in lane 1 I caught up with a van full of pax, bare arms,  tattoos etc, driving in lane 2 and somewhat slower. 

Quandary.

So I moved across to lane 3, overtook, indicated left, and moved directly back to lane 1.

A wildly extravagant manoeuvre to comply with no undertaking which would have been much safer.

There were only the two of us on the motorway. 

[Mjolinor]

6 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

@Cyker once travelling on the M180 in lane 1 I caught up with a van full of pax, bare arms,  tattoos etc, driving in lane 2 and somewhat slower. 

Quandary.

So I moved across to lane 3, overtook, indicated left, and moved directly back to lane 1.

A wildly extravagant manoeuvre to comply with no undertaking which would have been much safer.

There were only the two of us on the motorway. 

In a situation where is the middle lane hog and you then I too would hog the middle lane. It is the safest lane to travel in if there is no other traffic. I would have moved to lane 1 when you appeared int eh mirror but would go back to the middle lane once you were passed.Middle of the carriageway gives you maximum time to react to potential hazards from either side.

[Haliotis]

1 hour ago, Mjolinor said:

In a situation where is the middle lane hog and you then I too would hog the middle lane. It is the safest lane to travel in if there is no other traffic. I would have moved to lane 1 when you appeared int eh mirror but would go back to the middle lane once you were passed.Middle of the carriageway gives you maximum time to react to potential hazards from either side.

Hogging the middle lane is an offence, and you can collect a fine and points on your licence for it.   In the ay you describe things, and if you are content to follow/join the hogger in lane 2, then your safest place is a reasonable distance behind him in lane 1.   Approaching traffic from the rear will see the hogger in lane 2 and immediately move into lane 3 to overtake.

Bear in mind that, by following him in lane 2, there is a risk that a driver approaching from the rear could decide to pass on the near side.  This means that driver would be undertaking two vehicles and the danger risk increases significantly. 

If you are a reasonable distance behind, and are just pacing the lane 2 hogger, and he suddenly decides to move to lane 1, he would be no threat to you and you wouldn’t even need to brake.

One thing worth remembering is this:  If you drive in a manner that is contrary to the rules of the highway then you can confuse other drivers, which may lead them into making mistakes that may result in an accident.  Keeping your own driving correct to the rules, and your intentions clear to other drivers is a 50% contribution to avoiding collisions.

[Cyker]

I find you just have to make the judgement call in the moment, as there is no one-size-fits-all safest thing to do most of the time.

In Roy's scenario above, I must admit I probably wouldn't have bothered moving over and just bombed past them in lane 1

But on other occasions with seemingly similar setup, I have pulled in behind such drivers well in advance, then done it 'the proper way'.

I don't personally think either way is always safer, as although I have had people just pull in front of me in situations like Roy's scenario, I've had it the other way too, where I've signalled and begun moving into lane 3 to overtake and the car I was following just suddenly pulls out in front of me with no warning, so you have to be ready for moronic behaviour no matter what lane and which side you want to move to.

The trick is just to always leave/create loads of space everywhere - I'll even drop back a bit to avoid having a car next to me, because my default assumption is all other drivers are gormless morons and it just gives me more reaction space  

[Mjolinor]

Following the rules in the highway code is not a sure fire way to avoid prosecution when things go wrong. I have the T shirt on that one where I followed the highway code to the letter and plod still decided to prosecute me. I could probably have won it in court but magistrates are generally less well educated than plod and don't understand the defense anyway. Plod says thus so guilty is their motto I think.

 

[Roy124]

@Haliotis   "If you drive in a manner that is contrary to the rules of the highway then you can confuse other drivers, which may lead them into making mistakes that may result in an accident."

Absolutely- don't give way to roundabout traffic on your LEFT.  Don't flash your headlights as a road bump may look like a flash.

Don't assume a left indicator means the car will turn left.  Don't assume a right indicator means he will wait for you.

[Roy124]

4 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

Middle of the carriageway gives you maximum time to react to potential hazards from either side.

True,  though in this case the other driver had his mind on other things as evidenced by his passenger suddenly sitting up.

[Haliotis]

41 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

@Haliotis   "If you drive in a manner that is contrary to the rules of the highway then you can confuse other drivers, which may lead them into making mistakes that may result in an accident."

Absolutely- don't give way to roundabout traffic on your LEFT.  Don't flash your headlights as a road bump may look like a flash.

Don't assume a left indicator means the car will turn left.  Don't assume a right indicator means he will wait for you.

Been caught out by the speed hump flash - chap from my left pulled out when he thought I’d flashed him.  Managed to stop in time.  Now watch for other traffic as I approach a speed hump.

Now also very wary of indicators giving wrong signal.

On a few occasions have had an oncoming driver take a short cut on wrong side of a mini roundabout and cut straight across in front of me.  Here, the risk is great because, had the other driver taken the legitimate course around the roundabout, I would have crossed the roundabout before other driver had reached the proper position for making the right hand turn.

Another trap on a roundabout is where a driver signals a left turn off the roundabout too early.  So when you are expecting that driver to take the exit to your right, the vehicle continues onwards to either cut across your front, or crash into you if you have pulled out.

[Roy124]

7 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

 

@Haliotis in New Waltham we had a straight road with frequent streams of traffic heading for Tesco and a junction to a popular trading estate.

A mini roundabout was installed which granted traffic turning right across the stream priority.  A driver almost drove in  to me as I turned.   She was apoplectic.   I think they have got used to it now.

Three leg mini roundabouts can be dangerous. 

 

[Haliotis]

Our eldest daughter and her family live in Andover, Hampshire.  A few years ago our grandson was driving through a roundabout complex when he was stopped by a WPC. Pointing out to him that he had made a wrong move he replied that he had taken a path which looked to him to be correct.  She then said that lots of drivers had made the same mistake, and that she agreed that the road layout was puzzling, and that she would “let him off” this time.

So, if a police officer felt that to be the case, why did not the police take the matter up with the local highways department, instead of frightening drivers with possible prosecution?

I don’t know if this road layout is still unchanged.

[Roy124]

Isn't it Swindon with a roundabout with a number of mini roundabouts.  Apparently watch a video of the traffic is mesmerising. 

[CPN]

13 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

Isn't it Swindon with a roundabout with a number of mini roundabouts.  Apparently watch a video of the traffic is mesmerising. 

That'd be the one nicknamed "Magic Roundabout"...

[dannyboy413]

7 hours ago, Roy124 said:

Don't assume a left indicator means the car will turn left.  Don't assume a right indicator means he will wait for you.

That is certainly true of a lot of drivers in Ireland, especially when approaching a roundabout. It seems to be a case, when entering a roundabout, of "I have my right indicator on to let you know I am not leaving at the next exit". 

[Cyker]

Ah Magic Roundabouts... There's one in Hemel Hempstead too; I hate it because I think I'm going to die any time I go through it, but somehow it works!

[Mjolinor]

However stupid one feels mini roundabouts are they don't hold a candle to the stupidity of traffic lights on roundabouts which just totally remove all the advantages of roundabouts.

Roundabouts would work better if drivers were taught to give way to traffic from the right THAT IS ALREADY ON THE ROUNDABOUT. That is what the rules say but for some reason people think they have a right of way from a hundred yards out if they floor it.

 

 

[Roy124]

4 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

for some reason people think they have a right of way from a hundred yards out if they floor it.

Exactly. 

Once I joined from the south and remained in lane 1 to depart north.   After I had entered,  this anonymous van from the east entered the roundabout into lane 2 before cutting me up and exiting to the north. 

I think the quick flash of blue lights was an apology rather than a warning as he sped up the road towards the Swindon police station. 

🤣

[Cyker]

TBH never been a big fan of roundabouts - They only work with light traffic but I don't know of a single roundabout that can handle rush-hour traffic well which leads to people 'chancing' it.

I still remember the Great Cambridge Roundabout where the A10 meets the A406 - Before they put traffic lights there it was practically impossible to get on it without taking your life in your hands at certain times of day and depending on which direction you were coming from.

The traffic lights made it much easier for everyone to get a chance to go on, but destroyed the flow so it's essentially just an overly complicated cross junction now and causes traffic to back up in all directions and not just some of them  .

Ironically, due to the sound-bound leg of the A10 being changed to 30mph, the traffic lights not being calibrated to take that change into account, and the addition of speed humps causing a 5mph bottleneck as everyone slows down for them, it's completely buggered the roundabout as the south side can't clear fast enough when it's busy and causes the whole roundabout to get gridlocked.

The M25-A10 roundabout has also had the same thing done to it - They've changed the light timings and somehow made it so that at rush hour the whole roundabout will gridlock itself as the exits can't clear going either north or south depending on the time of day.

This is why I don't think modern road planners/implementors have a clue what they're doing - Almost every road I've seen them change in the last 10 years has gotten worse in terms of traffic flow and/or safety.

 

[Roy124]

Our roundabout in Lincolnshire is the Holdingham one on the edge of Sleaford. It serves 5 roads with 2, 3, and 4 lane entry from one or 2 lane roads.  Most are light controlled but there is at least one lane with Give Way.

Curiously Highways got it right.  There is some jockeying for the right lane but once in time on red lights is minimal. 

[Haliotis]

On the A426 (Lutterworth Road) in Leicestershire, there are three simple roundabouts where the 50 mph limit is reduced to 30 mph.  Many drivers ignore the speed signs, however.

But on more complex roundabouts there is no reduction in speed limit, which I find puzzling.  Drivers familiar to an area will “do their own thing” and whizz around, using the lanes as they see fit.  This can be extremely confusing for a driver strange to such a roundabout, and greatly increases the risk of a collision.

[Mjolinor]

Question: If there are roundabout signs but no roundabout is it still a roundabout?

There used to be one here but they removed it, the signs and some of the give way lines are still there but really easy to miss and getting worse every week.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8322468,-2.2177362,3a,75y,4.2h,80.94t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sI5Ke1Q7UexSjjaNRXT0qfw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DI5Ke1Q7UexSjjaNRXT0qfw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D149.48015%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

[Gren]

Last summer I was heading south on the M6 near Penrith.  Lanes 1 & 2 were quite busy, and I noticed a bicycle lying in the middle of lane 3.  Anyone who'd been speeding in lane 3 would not have been able to avoid it.

About a mile further on there was a car on the hard shoulder, Roof Rack askew, driver wondering where his bike had gone 😧

[Mjolinor]

55 minutes ago, Gren said:

Last summer I was heading south on the M6 near Penrith.  Lanes 1 & 2 were quite busy, and I noticed a bicycle lying in the middle of lane 3.  Anyone who'd been speeding in lane 3 would not have been able to avoid it.

About a mile further on there was a car on the hard shoulder, roof rack askew, driver wondering where his bike had gone 😧

You are assuming he was wondering that. Personally as he may have been a cyclist my guess would be "I am sure there was something on here when I set off"

[Haliotis]

I was confronted with a cycle in lane 2 of the M18, and I was towing a caravan at the time. No real room to risk an emergency stop, and traffic fairly close in lanes 1, 2 and 3.   So I put my hazard lights on, and this caused some hesitancy behind, which allowed me to gently steer around the bike.  You can’t safely swerve with a caravan in tow.

[Cyker]

The reminds me of this flatbed on the M1 on the opposite side to me - They'd stacked some boards up against the cab the way they usually do, but apparently forgot to tie them down as they just suddenly flipped up into the air and scattered all across the carriage way and hard shoulder - How none of them hit anything or anyone is a minor miracle!