Engine noise

[markybug]

So the last couple of months i think i can hear a more pronounced engine noise, almost rattly? from approximately the alternator/belts area. Noticeable at idle in the cabin when radio off. Much more noticeable if you are at a drive in window for example. 
 

Imagine a rattly, clatter almost ?

 

Will try and post a video of engine at idle. 

Thanks, mark. 

[Bper]

Hi Mark,while a loose belt is a common problem, some Toyota Yaris owners have reported issues with a specific pulley, the tensioner pulley, causing the rattling noise you described. This pulley keeps the serpentine belt tight.  A failing tensioner pulley bearing can cause a racket around the alternator area.

 Check the serpentine belt for any cracks,  wear, or signs of excessive oil contamination.  Look at the tensioner pulley for any wobble or excessive play.  While the engine is off, press down on the belt with your thumb. There should be some give, but it shouldn't be slack.Hope this helps.

[markybug]

5 hours ago, Bper said:

Hi Mark,while a loose belt is a common problem, some Toyota Yaris owners have reported issues with a specific pulley, the tensioner pulley, causing the rattling noise you described. This pulley keeps the serpentine belt tight.  A failing tensioner pulley bearing can cause a racket around the alternator area.

 Check the serpentine belt for any cracks,  wear, or signs of excessive oil contamination.  Look at the tensioner pulley for any wobble or excessive play.  While the engine is off, press down on the belt with your thumb. There should be some give, but it shouldn't be slack.Hope this helps.

Thanks for replying.  Is that an easy/inexpensive fix ? What causes it ? (If anything)

 

 

 

[Bper]

Hi Mark,

The ease and cost of fixing the issue depend on the specific cause. If it's just a loose belt, tightening it should be relatively easy and inexpensive. However, if it's a problem with the alternator itself, it could be more involved and costly.

A loose belt over time, can stretch or wear out, causing them to become loose and create noise.Worn out pulleys that are worn or misaligned can cause the belts to slip or make noise.

A faulty alternator an also be a cause, if the alternator bearings are worn out or if there's an internal issue with the alternator, it could cause noise. Sometimes other components driven by the belt such as the water pump or power steering pump can develop issues that create noise.

If you are not confident to investigate any of these then It's best to have a mechanic inspect the vehicle to determine the exact cause and provide an accurate estimate for the repair.Hope this helps 

[markybug]

Thanks again , yeh will pop it into the garage when i can. 

[Stevie J]

The 1.33 engine found in the MK3 does not have a power steering pump on the aux belt, they all used Electric Power Steering (EPS) which is driven from an electric motor on the steering column. I read on another post your car has done about 60K miles, so I would doubt the alternator would be faulty or noisy at that mileage. If anything is liable to cause rattling noises it is the idlers, belt tensioner pulley or possibly the water pump. I know premature water pump failures affected some 1 litre 3 cylinder engines in the past, but not read about early failures in the 1.33 engines. 

Another cause of metallic rattling at idle with the car in neutral and the clutch not depressed is the input shaft bearing in the gearbox, but I would not suspect it would be this at just 60K miles. Also you would more hear that rattle on the passenger side of the engine.

The other type of rattle, or more a clicking sound at idle could simply be tappet noise or fuel injectors clicking. My car does tend to make a bit of this noise at idle and that is at 33K miles. I dont get unduly concerned about it, as my older Mk2 1.3 engine used to do it as well.

Anyway, I'm sure the garage will find out the cause and it may well turn out to simply be a bad pulley bearing. I'd say its best to change the serpentine belt as well as it is probably on the original one and 60K miles would mean it was probably due for change anyway.

[Stevie J]

I think timing chain rattle would be very unlikely in Markybug's case as he has had his car from 30K miles and looked after it, with it now only having done about 60K miles. Chains tend to become noisy at much higher mileages than 60K unless like you say, maintenance has been severely neglected, in particular, oil changes not carried out at between 6000 - 10000 mile intervals

I had an annoying chirping and squeeking noise from the drivebelt area on my old 2006 Mk2 1.3 engine Yaris, that always occured from cold start but vanished when the engine had warmed up. Despite changing and tensioning the belt, the noise soon came back, and it was eventually put down to misalignment of the pulleys themselves causing the belt to slip on the idler pulley and squeek, worse when the weather was damp and the engine was cold.

Rattling from that area rather than squeeking and chirping would not usually be a badly aligned pulley, rather a pulley with failing bearings or a water pump that was failing. It may not be beyond the realms of possibility that the a/c compressor bearings are failing, but I would think this less likely than the idlers or the water pump at 60K miles.

[markybug]

The car had only done 30k by October 2022, and since then have almost doubled it to date. Was serviced last October at its first year under our ownership.  
 

should have mentioned there is no squealing or squeaks , just the rattly noise. 
 

mileage is mostly motorway, sitting at 60-65mph. 

[markybug]

So, car is in garage today and it’s the water pump apparently.  £284 supplied and fitted ….

[Stevie J]

Water pump failure at 60K miles? Not good. I've had company vehicles in the past that I have had from new and driven through 150K miles till I got them replaced, and not one of them had water pump failure. It simply is poor quality parts they seem to be using on later Yaris's. Wheel bearings failing at low mileages on later mk3 Yaris's seem to be another issue too - again, parts that simply should not be failing at such low mileages. 

I'm glad mine is only on 33K miles now and I only do about 3K miles a year, so my car wont get to 60K miles for another 9 years, by which time I probably wont own it as it would be 19 years old by then, so at least, hopefully I wont have to be worrying about overheating and loss of coolant - something which you wont really know about till its too late due to a lack of a temperature gauge. That tiny red overheat light is easily missed. I dont know why on earth manufacturers seem to think it's ok to make cars with no temperature gauge - it could make the difference between stopping an overheating engine in time, or missing it and cooking the engine to the point of writing it off.

£284 seems pretty steep, but then everything costs a fortune to repair or replace these days. I got charged £120 just to change the front brake pads on mine last week. Every time something needs doing these days, its hundreds of pounds.

[MikeSh]

25 minutes ago, Stevie J said:

That tiny red overheat light is easily missed. I dont know why on earth manufacturers seem to think it's ok to make cars with no temperature gauge

You think the average driver will notice a high needle before a warning light? Pretty sure I wouldn't.

[TonyHSD]

Water pump failure it’s not uncommon in Toyota’s cars , actually it’s a typical problem on many Toyota non hybrid engines and sometimes these pumps fail early as 20-30k miles or few years. 
Two major reasons for premature water pump failure are using wrong coolant mixture or old coolant, over tensioned belt on cars with manual belt adjustment. 

[Stevie J]

1 hour ago, MikeSh said:

You think the average driver will notice a high needle before a warning light? Pretty sure I wouldn't.

Perhaps on the mk3 the red thermometer light is a bit more noticeable as its right in front of the driver and the dash binnacle is a bit more shaded from any sunlight coming into the car so you might stand a better chance of seeing it come on, but on the Mk1 and Mk2 the light was in the central binnacle and even harder to notice if the sun was shining on it - you tend to drive with your eyes facing forwards, so the central design of the Mk1 and Mk2 was more out of your field of vision, and a small red light could very easily be missed.

With a proper gauge, the needle will be more obvious when you glance down at the speedo, and if its starting to move over half way, or further towards HOT than it normally would, then you tend to take more notice of it to see if it will rise higher, so it gives more warning of a potential overheat situation than a red light, which only comes on once the engine would have reached the HOT mark on a standard gauge - by then, you need to stop the engine immediately to avoid further damage. With the gauge, if the needle climbs towards the HOT mark higher than it normally would, you would think about pulling over and stopping at that point, rather than wait till the inevitable happens and it does reach the HOT sector. A good driver will often have a glance at the instruments as well as the road ahead, to ensure all is OK, and seeing a rising temp gauge will promote a more frequent check on it, rather than hoping you dont miss a red thermometer light come on, by which time, it could be too late.

With water pump failure so common, as Tony points out - and no proper gauge, I wonder how many engines have been ruined or blown their head gaskets once the pump fails and the coolant leaks out, and on an older car, repair may well be more expensive than the car is worth if the engine is wrecked, so one failed water pump could well spell the end of life for the car concerned if the driver doesn't notice the little red overheat light, or is simply ignorant to what it means when it comes on or flashes.

[MikeSh]

2 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Water pump failure it’s not uncommon in Toyota’s cars

Are you suggesting it's not uncommon in others? My experience is that it's a pretty universal problem in all all mass produced cars, and probably vans.

[MikeSh]

3 hours ago, MikeSh said:

the average driver

 

1 hour ago, Stevie J said:

A good driver

I think you've missed the point by a large margin.

These cars are absolutely not built for 'good' drivers, whatever they might be. What you see in these forums are not at all representative of 'average'.

It's transport. You may believe otherwise but you are actually a minority, along with most people here. We are not normal. Sorry, but that's the reality.

[Rhymes with Paris]

7 hours ago, MikeSh said:

We are not normal. Sorry, but that's the reality.

I'm normal,my mother had me tested.

[TonyHSD]

10 hours ago, MikeSh said:

Are you suggesting it's not uncommon in others? My experience is that it's a pretty universal problem in all all mass produced cars, and probably vans.

Yes, exactly that. 
Some other Toyota like the hybrid ones water pumps can last high miles. Other brands  too, older Mitsubishi models for example very similar to non hybrid Toyota engines water pumps usually were changed by trained mechanics on the second timing belt change , so good they were.
Yaris, Auris, Avensis pretty  much the first thing to go wrong are the water pumps. 
 

[Cyker]

Huh, interesting - When my Yaris had a squeaky belt I just changed it and it was okay. When my 2nd one also started to get the belt squeal, my dad's Verso was showing signs of a leak from the water pump so I ordered an aux belt for my Yaris and his Verso and also water pumps for both, as everyone said you may as well change them at the same time as they're easy to get to if you're changing the belts anyway. I don't remember it being all that expensive.

Good thing about the Toyota water pumps is they're made of metal - I don't like this trend in other marques of making them out of plastic! Esp. the impellers, where they can shear off but the pulley still turns so it's not obvious something bad has happened until damage has been done.

 

[Rhymes with Paris]

I remember the indy garage that I initially thought looked good.

I described a slipping belt, yes squeaking screaming, so quite obvious needed tension checking, and if ok check water pump and steering pump.

Was worse when on hard lock, so pointed to lack of tension most likely when steering pump was working hard.

The old experienced mechanic wrote on the sheet " steering noise"

How I wish I was still bendy enough, and fingers working to sort something so simple myself instead of having to deal with these refugees from planet of the apes.

[markybug]

Sooo… haven’t really used the car since getting it back from the garage, but my wife had been using it locally for work and reports there is an occasional squealing belt like noise occurring…?!

Have to drive it myself to check, but is this just the belt needing adjusting or?

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, markybug said:

but is this just the belt needing adjusting or?

If it is then shoot the mechanic.

I hope that is the problem, but OTOH I hope he/she wasn't a numpty and it's something else ... which is not great for your bank balance.

[markybug]

So, collected the car after them checking it. Apparently the belt is auto adjusting so can’t be manually tightened adjusted etc ? They lubricated the mechanism or something apparently. Kept car overnight to try in morning when cold/damp and couldn’t here anything. 
 

Drove away this afternoon and in less than 5 min it’s squealing still……After stopping for the ship for 5 I drove the same route again and couldn’t here it  it just seems to be at first use ?

So back it goes next week. Rather peeved tbh, but they are presumably genuinely trying to sort it (fingers crossed!)

[Stevie J]

It could just be that the belt itself is worn, and if it has never been replaced in covering 60K miles, it may be time for a new one. Sometimes, if the car has not been used for a while, the Battery may be low and the alternator will put a heavier load on the belt as it has to deliver a higher current, causing it to slip if the belt is in any way damp. If the pulley on the new water pump is slightly mis aligned with the other pullies on the serpentine belt's route, that can also cause slippage. It is only since they replaced the water pump you reckon it now shrieks - so it has to have something to do with that procedure. Something is either not now aligned correctly, and an old / worn belt is slipping over a pulley and causing noise, or maybe they got lubricant overspray on the belt while doing the water pump job which is causing noise.

Just because the water pump is new, does not mean that it is made to the exacting tolerances the original one was, and if the pulley on it is now not aligned with the other pullies, you are likely to get noise if the belt is in any way worn, damp or has some kind of contaminant on it.

[markybug]

Is it automatic that you would replace any belt on a car when removing one ? Especially if it the original 8yr old, 60k mile one ?

Have to check with garage if they have done this

[markybug]

Car hasn’t been back in yet as been busy, still squealing tho!

checked receipt for work and it states belt replaced alongside pump.