New RAV4 coming around September or GR Sport spec change

[Nick72]

Slightly odd conversation with our company car folks...

Currently a 2021 R4P dynamic premium driver. Company car. Cycled every 3 years. Great car but needs a tech upgrade.

My order of a R4P GR Sport due in September comes with a specific statement our car folks were keen to mention to me. Toyota has said to them they can't guarantee the model as significant changes are coming. Not had this experience before on all my past cars.

I asked if that was a new model RAV and they said we think so but equally it could be they plan to stop production of the GR Sport model or they are going to significantly change the GR Sport spec. New registration in September of course.

Asked which and they were erring towards a new model which I thought was unlikely since that to me seemed more likely 1st or 2nd QTR next year?

I'd be nervous about picking up an early bug riddled car (learnt that lesson on other cars). I'd also be nervous of seeing a drop in GR Sport Spec or a here's the non GR Sport model. In which case I may be considering a Volvo XC60 PHEV or something else. Hope that I don't need to go down this path. 

Anyone got any insights or opinions?

[ernieb]

No insight Nick, but you need to keep an eye on what might be going on. We do know that a number of manufacturers a couple of years ago just deleted lots of items from the spec, Volvo was one of them. Let’s hope it’s an upgrade rather than a spec degradation.

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, ernieb said:

No insight Nick, but you need to keep an eye on what might be going on. We do know that a number of manufacturers a couple of years ago just deleted lots of items from the spec, Volvo was one of them. Let’s hope it’s an upgrade rather than a spec degradation.

That's my fear. Cancelled my XC60 order on that basis. They were very very sly at Volvo. Caught it in the spec check. They changed the name of a package from Driver Assistance to Driver Assist without listing contents or telling me anything had changed. On investigation because I'm naturally suspicious it transpires they had removed the cross traffic alert feature, the blind spot indicator, and something else. A Volvo without safety features ? What kind of Volvo is that? Pretty much all of that package was missing because of supply chain issues. I cancelled it and came here to RAV4 land. Probably for the best even though the Volvo was lush inside, top spec audio, and over 400hp. And a very low mpg from a supercharged and turbocharged engine. 😅

Perhaps they're anticipating supply chain issues in Toyota or perhaps the GR Sport model is last their last ditch attempt to boost sales and hasn't laid the egg they imagined. Dunno but now I'm worried. 

Alternatively, if it's a brand new R4P model (wishful thinking) and comes with loads of gadgets, a 14 inch display, a 130hp rear motor, and 75 mile Battery range, and a drone, then I'd be willing to take the early adopter risk. 🤣

[Flatcoat]

****, make your mind up and order something! I can prevaricate when it comes to car choices however you leave me in the shade! The lease company won’t care, they simply want you to make a decision, Toyota dealer sales staff won’t know - their job is to sell cars. None of the car media make any reference to a new or updated RAV although purely in life cycle terms I would expect a new RAV in the next 2 years or so. I personally very much doubt it will be this year. 

[Nick72]

34 minutes ago, Flatcoat said:

****, make your mind up and order something! I can prevaricate when it comes to car choices however you leave me in the shade! The lease company won’t care, they simply want you to make a decision, Toyota dealer sales staff won’t know - their job is to sell cars. None of the car media make any reference to a new or updated RAV although purely in life cycle terms I would expect a new RAV in the next 2 years or so. I personally very much doubt it will be this year. 

It's ordered. Ordered a couple months ago. 

The issue isn't with me per se but rather Toyota saying we can't guarantee it will be the same as what I've ordered. 

I'm sure you would have the same doubts if you ordered something big and several months in you were told the thing you thought you were buying may not be it. 😅

[Flatcoat]

19 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

It's ordered. Ordered a couple months ago. 

The issue isn't with me per se but rather Toyota saying we can't guarantee it will be the same as what I've ordered. 

I'm sure you would have the same doubts if you ordered something big and several months in you were told the thing you thought you were buying may not be it. 😅

It could happen with any car you order. I learned a long time ago we always worry about the wrong thing. If it happens deal with it at the time, in the meantime get on with your life. Worse things happen at sea as they say. 

[philip42h]

20 hours ago, Nick72 said:

My order of a R4P GR Sport due in September comes with a specific statement our car folks were keen to mention to me. Toyota has said to them they can't guarantee the model as significant changes are coming. Not had this experience before on all my past cars.

Asked which and they were erring towards a new model which I thought was unlikely since that to me seemed more likely 1st or 2nd QTR next year?

Your guess is at least as good if not better than mine ...

But words are important here. Are you absolutely certain that they used the word model? Because that strongly implies the RAV4.5 PHEV (as it appears in the price list).

If it were the end of the RAV altogether or the emergence of the RAV4.6 we'd expect to have heard reliable rumours by now, sneak-peak details emerging through the summer, formal announcement around September ready for order in October and, exactly as you say, deliveries 1st or 2nd QTR next year. And we don't believe that ...

So, you may have mis-remembered the wording used or the guy you spoke with may have been very careless (or just an idiot).

Toyota is known to mess with grades almost on a whim. Not so long ago the GR Sport was named Dynamic, and every so often we get a Black Edition or Adventure grade. And, of course, they do 'mess' with specification details - normally to add stuff to encourage sales when models start to approach the run-out stage, but also, more recently, to trim the cost and/or to deal with supply chain issues. And that is perfectly possible.

But, we could go onto the Toyota website and order the GR Sport that you have specified today and have a reasonable expectation that, once Toyota have accepted the order, that is the car they would deliver. There could be parts supply issues over which Toyota have no control but that isn't generally the Toyota way.

So, this all makes me suspect that your leasing company haven't yet actually ordered your car?

[Nick72]

4 minutes ago, Flatcoat said:

It could happen with any car you order. I learned a long time ago we always worry about the wrong thing. If it happens deal with it at the time, in the meantime get on with your life. Worse things happen at sea as they say. 

True but this is the first time it was explicitly stated and 'unusual' was how the company car folks described it. 

[Nick72]

3 minutes ago, philip42h said:

Your guess is at least as good if not better than mine ...

But words are important here. Are you absolutely certain that they used the word model? Because that strongly implies the RAV4.5 PHEV (as it appears in the price list).

If it were the end of the RAV altogether or the emergence of the RAV4.6 we'd expect to have heard reliable rumours by now, sneak-peak details emerging through the summer, formal announcement around September ready for order in October and, exactly as you say, deliveries 1st or 2nd QTR next year. And we don't believe that ...

So, you may have mis-remembered the wording used or the guy you spoke with may have been very careless (or just an idiot).

Toyota is known to mess with grades almost on a whim. Not so long ago the GR Sport was named Dynamic, and every so often we get a Black Edition or Adventure grade. And, of course, they do 'mess' with specification details - normally to add stuff to encourage sales when models start to approach the run-out stage, but also, more recently, to trim the cost and/or to deal with supply chain issues. And that is perfectly possible.

But, we could go onto the Toyota website and order the GR Sport that you have specified today and have a reasonable expectation that, once Toyota have accepted the order, that is the car they would deliver. There could be parts supply issues over which Toyota have no control but that isn't generally the Toyota way.

So, this all makes me suspect that your leasing company haven't yet actually ordered your car?

Absolutely 100pc. Said that Toyota could not guarantee the 'model'. Talked about some changes being made in the second convo I had yesterday afternoon. I've spoke two different folks there now. Same answer. Can't guarantee the model.

They are in essence saying the opposite to your 2nd to last paragraph. They can't guarantee it and have put it in writing to our company car folks. I've asked if they can give sight of this from Toyota.

As mentioned to Flatcoat the first person I spoke with also used the word 'unusual' at one point.

I'm leaning towards either a significant spec change to the R4P GR Sport (possibly for the worse if supply chain issues are predicted?) or a discontinuation of the GR Sport trim. Being on the cusp of new registration (September) no doubt being more than a coincidence. 

 

[philip42h]

18 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

Absolutely 100pc. Said that Toyota could not guarantee the 'model'.

Then it's obvious, isn't it? Toyota are going to discontinue production of their globally best-selling model - the RAV4 - in favour of the bZ4X (which needs a bit of a boost).

Not.

As Adrian says, worry about it only if/when it happens ... 😉

[philip42h]

There's the normal level of nonsense out there on the Interweb but we are not going to see a new model in time for your upcoming September delivery.

Less wild speculation that I have seen and could believe:

• New, additional, different paint colours - you may not be able to have the colour you have specified.
• Different wheel styles - but they'll probably still be round.
• Hybrid only - which may matter in other geographies but isn't so relevant here.

And an engine change? I made this one up, but the RAV4 is currently powered by a 4th generation hybrid system while the 5th generation now exists in the Yaris, Corolla, and C-HR. So, maybe, without changing much else Toyota could sneak a 5th generation hybrid into the PHEV? Again, they have changed the power-plant options mid-life before now.

[Nick72]

4 hours ago, philip42h said:

Then it's obvious, isn't it? Toyota are going to discontinue production of their globally best-selling model - the RAV4 - in favour of the bZ4X (which needs a bit of a boost).

Not.

As Adrian says, worry about it only if/when it happens ... 😉

So for clarity I believe they were saying model in terms of model of RAV4 but not trim which made me wonder about the RAV4 one after this rather than a different model of car entirely 😂

[Nick72]

2 hours ago, philip42h said:

There's the normal level of nonsense out there on the Interweb but we are not going to see a new model in time for your upcoming September delivery.

Less wild speculation that I have seen and could believe:

• New, additional, different paint colours - you may not be able to have the colour you have specified.
• Different wheel styles - but they'll probably still be round.
• Hybrid only - which may matter in other geographies but isn't so relevant here.

And an engine change? I made this one up, but the RAV4 is currently powered by a 4th generation hybrid system while the 5th generation now exists in the Yaris, Corolla, and C-HR. So, maybe, without changing much else Toyota could sneak a 5th generation hybrid into the PHEV? Again, they have changed the power-plant options mid-life before now.

So long as it's a PHEV of similar size, spec and performance to what I thought I ordered 2 months back in the R4P GR Sport then I'll be happier. Not too fussed about different colours or wheels or any of that malarkey.

But... It has to be a PHEV largely because of the BiK tax. It translates to me getting a third off the cost. Which is why it wouldn't work for me with a regular hybrid. I'd pay through the nose. And then after that the lower air pollution argument, cheaper all electric running costs for most of my personal mileage, and nice calm EV motoring. 😀

[philip42h]

11 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

So long as it's a PHEV ...

Now you're getting paranoid! 😄

Everything Toyota is getting extra PHEViness these days - there's a plug-in version of the new C-HR and you can no longer get a Prius without a plug! It seems more likely that they'd drop the plug-less self-charging hybrid than the PHEV / Prime.

[Nick72]

17 hours ago, philip42h said:

Now you're getting paranoid! 😄

Everything Toyota is getting extra PHEViness these days - there's a plug-in version of the new C-HR and you can no longer get a Prius without a plug! It seems more likely that they'd drop the plug-less self-charging hybrid than the PHEV / Prime.

Perhaps, but this one has been strange from the off.

Had weird and irregular shenanigans from the start. Originally the PHEV GR Sport wasn't even listed on the company car order books back in early Feb. Only the HEV GR Sport version. That's a longer story. And my initial order had to go through manually rather than via their website but came back as a HEV despite me and them confirming it as PHEV GR Sport bitone! Then there was no spec check from the dealer. The company car folks said they were having difficulty with Toyota with their arrangements and which models are available. Then the issue in this post.

May be competence could be implicated in all this from my company car folks and Toyota, but it is irregular for them.

It could be that Toyota are wanting to push their HEV GR Sport line out ahead of the PHEV version to meet a sales target or return on investment case, given they probably already have high demand for the PHEV. That's just business economics on what vehicles they make the most profit per unit sale on and which vehicles they can push out the highest production rate on.  Interestingly on the company car website, once they finally added it and correctly, the GR Sport PHEV P1D value was 50.7k or there abouts where as HEV GR Sport was very high 40s. Not much in it. But for me there's a huge about in it because on the PHEV I only pay equivalent of a lease on a c. 30k car ( BiK tax is very low at I think 7% versus the 40 or 45% that would otherwise go to the government from my wages ). All things considered it means I get the PHEV for substantially less than the HEV and get a much better car in the process. This is why I'm uptight about it. 😅

 

I also mentioned my Volvo experience in this or another post. They very slyly changed the name of a package in the spec check from Driver Assistance to Driver Assist. Dropped a few letters. Most wouldn't have noticed. It meant it no longer came with rear and front cross traffic, blind spot warning, and several other key safety features. Supply chain issues. Took some investigation to get to the bottom of it and had to go to Head of UK Volvo sales for the answers since they didn't say what was in the Driver Assist pack in the spec check. But I was suspicious about the name change. All very dirty. I cancelled that order and got the R4P.

Pays to be a little paranoid. 😉

[philip42h]

9 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

It could be that Toyota are wanting to push their HEV GR Sport line out ahead of the PHEV version to meet a sales target or return on investment case, given they probably already have high demand for the PHEV.

That doesn't wash - the converse appears to be true. Why else would they be offering PCP at 1.9% on the PHEV and 8.9% on the HEV?

It might suggest that "good things" are coming in PHEV space and they are aiming to shift the existing production before it becomes less attractive? And if that is the case, you could be quids in ...

[Nick72]

5 hours ago, philip42h said:

That doesn't wash - the converse appears to be true. Why else would they be offering PCP at 1.9% on the PHEV and 8.9% on the HEV?

It might suggest that "good things" are coming in PHEV space and they are aiming to shift the existing production before it becomes less attractive? And if that is the case, you could be quids in ...

 

Is that specific to the GR Sport trims because that's the question here rather than a general HEV Vs PHEV question. It's a GR Sport HEV Vs GR Sport PHEV question and what's happening to both those lines.

On the PCP, it also entirely depends what tax credits or other incentives are at play in different markets when the fleet companys' buy their cars and how they buy them. And what they can pass on to their customers. None of which I'm sighted on.

[philip42h]

5 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

Is that specific to the GR Sport trims because that's the question here rather than a general HEV Vs PHEV question. It's a GR Sport HEV Vs GR Sport PHEV question and what's happening to both those lines.

No, it is across all grades and reflects the marketing 'push' between PHEV and HEV within the UK. GR Sport is merely a grade.

And yes, those are PCP rates because those are readily visible to joe public. The deals available to business and the fleet market will be different, but I really can't imagine that Toyota would want to sell PHEVs to joe public and HEVs to fleets (for example).

[Flatcoat]

The push to sell PHEV’s is to help lower the overall fleet CO2 average and avoid costly fines. Personally I think they should count towards the ludicrous mandate for selling a minimum number of EV’s. This year it is 20%. Quite how Toyota will achieve that with only the one BEV available is beyond me. Quite how people are going to be forced to buy BEV’s is even more ridiculous. Command economies simply do not work, the other name for them is communism and look how well that system has worked out. 
However to get back to Nick, I am really struggling to understand what it is you want someone to say?! Everything stated so far is guesswork, supposition, crystal ball gazing. You have ordered the car, just sit back and relax. Or, order something else and get on with life. I really wish something so relatively trivial was all I had to worry about. 

[Nick72]

3 hours ago, philip42h said:

No, it is across all grades and reflects the marketing 'push' between PHEV and HEV within the UK. GR Sport is merely a grade.

And yes, those are PCP rates because those are readily visible to joe public. The deals available to business and the fleet market will be different, but I really can't imagine that Toyota would want to sell PHEVs to joe public and HEVs to fleets (for example).

You could be right Phillip and now I'm overthinking the possibilities. 

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, Flatcoat said:

The push to sell PHEV’s is to help lower the overall fleet CO2 average and avoid costly fines. Personally I think they should count towards the ludicrous mandate for selling a minimum number of EV’s. This year it is 20%. Quite how Toyota will achieve that with only the one BEV available is beyond me. Quite how people are going to be forced to buy BEV’s is even more ridiculous. Command economies simply do not work, the other name for them is communism and look how well that system has worked out. 
However to get back to Nick, I am really struggling to understand what it is you want someone to say?! Everything stated so far is guesswork, supposition, crystal ball gazing. You have ordered the car, just sit back and relax. Or, order something else and get on with life. I really wish something so relatively trivial was all I had to worry about. 

Thanks and yes you are right. But I've ordered something and now there's a risk I won't get what I ordered.

So just trying to understand what that might mean in terms of the possibilities. I'll know in the coming months of course and at which I'll either be cancelling and getting, probably a Volvo PHEV, or sticking with it.