Road Sign Assist speed limit beeping

[TerminalOversteer]

I recently had a test drive in a new RAV4.  I liked it a lot, but one annoying feature is the bleep every time it sees the speed limit changing (up or down). This is coupled with a different bleep if you don't slow down quickly enough or exceed the limit thereafter.  My current car has the same feature, but does not bleep.  The display shows the last limit sign seen and changes if that limit is exceeded - which is absolutely fine.
Some might say that this is a reasonable safety feature, but our road infrastructure is not up to the task and sometimes speed limit signs placed too early on slip roads and roundabout exits confuse the system and you find the car complaining about the limit being exceeded until another sign is seen.

I asked the salesman if the bleeping can be reduced to a visual warning only (which I'm sure it can) permanently (which perhaps it can't), but the salesman didn't know and never got back to me about it.

Can anyone with first hand knowledge enlighten me?

[Corolly Poly]

4 minutes ago, TerminalOversteer said:

I recently had a test drive in a new RAV4.  I liked it a lot, but one annoying feature is the bleep every time it sees the speed limit changing (up or down). This is coupled with a different bleep if you don't slow down quickly enough or exceed the limit thereafter.  My current car has the same feature, but does not bleep.  The display shows the last limit sign seen and changes if that limit is exceeded - which is absolutely fine.
Some might say that this is a reasonable safety feature, but our road infrastructure is not up to the task and sometimes speed limit signs placed too early on slip roads and roundabout exits confuse the system and you find the car complaining about the limit being exceeded until another sign is seen.

I asked the salesman if the bleeping can be reduced to a visual warning only (which I'm sure it can) permanently (which perhaps it can't), but the salesman didn't know and never got back to me about it.

Can anyone with first hand knowledge enlighten me?

I understand with the 2024 models it can be turned off but only until the next re-start when it will be enabled again. I haven't tried on mine.

[philip42h]

This is currently being actively discussed in another thread:

You'll probably find these threads merged any moment now! 😉 

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, TerminalOversteer said:

I asked the salesman if the bleeping can be reduced to a visual warning only (which I'm sure it can) permanently (which perhaps it can't) ...

Correct - that appears to be the case. You can switch back to visual warning only, but you'd have to do so, explicitly, at the start of each trip.

[P_J]

But you can permanently turn off the default LOUD beep at each speed limit zone change thankfully. 
I was sooo much happier after I found that option. 
I think if you turn the setting to the lowest one, which I think is No Audible or Visual, it'll reenable itself to both on next start. 
Just set it to Visual Only, and it'll stay that way (until the EU change the rules again). 

[Nick72]

🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦

This is really really going to annoy the **** out of me. 

Wonder how it's implemented on other cars?

[kucyk]

2 hours ago, Nick72 said:

🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦

This is really really going to annoy the **** out of me. 

Wonder how it's implemented on other cars?

I think it's EU regulation, part of ISA system, mandatory in 2024 cars. Looks like UK opted out but N.Ireland opted in 😆, so I guess Toyota, as usual, is too lazy to release a different version of software. It will be more annoying than, thanks god not present in our cars, start and stop system which resets to on state on each car start.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/eu-requires-cars-come-tech-slows-cars-speeding-uk-opts-out

https://www.reddit.com/r/mazda3/comments/1728q41/mazda_3_2024_eu_noise_beep_in_isa_system/ 🤡

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_GdMSxhCmU 🤡

 

 

[philip42h]

8 hours ago, kucyk said:

Looks like UK opted out

We didn't. Not surprisingly Fox News is spreading misinformation again! The EU regulations for passenger vehicles have been adopted by the UK and apply just as they do across Europe.

(There may be differences for HGVs and PSVs but I don't really care about them! 😉 )

[philip42h]

11 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Wonder how it's implemented on other cars?

I'm just sad, sorry ...

On ISA, the Regulations state:

"2. Intelligent speed assistance shall meet the following minimum requirements:

(a) it shall be possible for the driver to be made aware through the accelerator control, or through dedicated, appropriate and effective feedback, that the applicable speed limit is exceeded;

(b) it shall be possible to switch off the system; information about the speed limit may still be provided, and intelligent speed assistance shall be in normal operation mode upon each activation of the vehicle master control switch;

(c) the dedicated and appropriate feedback shall be based on speed limit information obtained through the observation of road signs and signals, based on infrastructure signals or electronic map data, or both, made available in-vehicle;

(d) it shall not affect the possibility, for the drivers, of exceeding the system’s prompted vehicle speed;

(e) its performance targets shall be set in order to avoid or minimise the error rate under real driving conditions."

And if that is not already too much, try:

"3. LEGAL ELEMENTS OF THE DELEGATED ACT

The legal basis of this delegated act is Article 4(6) and Article 6(6) of Regulation (EU) 2019/2144 of the European Parliament and of the Council.

ISA systems have to provide feedback to the driver in case of over-speed conditions, which has to be appropriate and effective. As the current development of technology stands, there are several technical options for the feedback methodology. However, not all of them can be used in each and every motor vehicle (it depends on the engine, the propulsion type (hybrid), the gearbox, etc.). Therefore, it is provided in the draft Delegated Regulation that vehicle manufacturers can choose one of the following four feedback methodologies to base their ISA systems on:

(1) the haptic feedback system which relies on the pedal restoring force:

• Driver’s foot will be gently pushed back in case of over-speed. It will help to reduce driving speed and can be overridden by the driver.

(2) the speed control system which relies on engine management:

• Automatic reduction of the propulsion power independent of the position of drive’s feet on the pedal, but that can also be overridden by the driver easily.

(3) the cascaded acoustic warning:

• 1st step: flash an optical signal
• 2nd step: after several seconds, if no reaction from the driver, the acoustic warning will be activated
• If the driver ignores this combined feedback, both warnings will be timed-out.

(4) the cascaded vibration warning:

• 1st step: flash an optical signal
• 2nd step: after several seconds, if no reaction from the driver, pedal will vibrate
• If the driver ignores this combined feedback, both warnings will be timed-out.

Despite the functional differences, ISA systems based on each of those four options are considered equally safe and effective.

The basic speed limit information system (SLI - visual warning only), which is a technology available in some motor vehicles today, is estimated to be 20% less effective due to missed visual alerts by drivers. For this reason it is considered not sufficiently effective or appropriate to be provided as a feedback technology alone, in this Regulation.

Acoustic warning on the other hand is shown to be very effective in terms of driver reaction, but it is deemed annoying.

Annoyance is an important element regarding the choice of technology. For this reason, the cascaded acoustic warning option combines for each over-speeding event the non-annoying, but less effective, optical signal with the acoustic warning as a back-up. To make sure the warning does not become unappreciated, its duration is kept short. Hence, it is designed in such a way to mitigate annoyance appropriately."

Toyota have clearly adopted the "cascaded acoustic warning" option as a relatively simple enhancement to the "basic speed limit information system (SLI - visual warning only)" that some of us enjoy today. Exactly what other manufacturers choose to do only time will tell ...

[P_J]

That's good info there. Thanks. 
Whilst I agree with those principals, I think there is some wiggle room required, to give us the ability to change the tolerance at which the vehicle is deemed to be in an over-speed condition i.e. by changing the 1/3/5 mph setting which is clearly configured in the management software, but disabled by the UK spec. 
This would clearly help us to tune the condition to activate on the vehicles actual speed being over-speed, and not the indicated speed. 

And if they wish to prevent further annoyance, they need to have a better road sign reading ability.
Every commute I'm stuck with beeps whilst driving down a 40mph spine road, with 20mph side roads at each roundabout, which the camera picks up each and every time I drive round one. I can occasionally avoid it by driving 'straight' across the roundabout, with minimal steering, cutting across the lanes, but this is only when conditions allow. I'm in danger of adapting my driving style to negate the 'safety features' 🙄

[ernieb]

And there is the problem because we get frustrated with the constant inappropriate alarms we try to adopt driving styles different to our normal ones to avoid the nagging. 

[Nick72]

On 5/3/2024 at 9:02 AM, philip42h said:

I'm just sad, sorry ...

On ISA, the Regulations state:

"2. Intelligent speed assistance shall meet the following minimum requirements:

(a) it shall be possible for the driver to be made aware through the accelerator control, or through dedicated, appropriate and effective feedback, that the applicable speed limit is exceeded;

(b) it shall be possible to switch off the system; information about the speed limit may still be provided, and intelligent speed assistance shall be in normal operation mode upon each activation of the vehicle master control switch;

(c) the dedicated and appropriate feedback shall be based on speed limit information obtained through the observation of road signs and signals, based on infrastructure signals or electronic map data, or both, made available in-vehicle;

(d) it shall not affect the possibility, for the drivers, of exceeding the system’s prompted vehicle speed;

(e) its performance targets shall be set in order to avoid or minimise the error rate under real driving conditions."

And if that is not already too much, try:

"3. LEGAL ELEMENTS OF THE DELEGATED ACT

The legal basis of this delegated act is Article 4(6) and Article 6(6) of Regulation (EU) 2019/2144 of the European Parliament and of the Council.

ISA systems have to provide feedback to the driver in case of over-speed conditions, which has to be appropriate and effective. As the current development of technology stands, there are several technical options for the feedback methodology. However, not all of them can be used in each and every motor vehicle (it depends on the engine, the propulsion type (hybrid), the gearbox, etc.). Therefore, it is provided in the draft Delegated Regulation that vehicle manufacturers can choose one of the following four feedback methodologies to base their ISA systems on:

(1) the haptic feedback system which relies on the pedal restoring force:

• Driver’s foot will be gently pushed back in case of over-speed. It will help to reduce driving speed and can be overridden by the driver.

(2) the speed control system which relies on engine management:

• Automatic reduction of the propulsion power independent of the position of drive’s feet on the pedal, but that can also be overridden by the driver easily.

(3) the cascaded acoustic warning:

• 1st step: flash an optical signal
• 2nd step: after several seconds, if no reaction from the driver, the acoustic warning will be activated
• If the driver ignores this combined feedback, both warnings will be timed-out.

(4) the cascaded vibration warning:

• 1st step: flash an optical signal
• 2nd step: after several seconds, if no reaction from the driver, pedal will vibrate
• If the driver ignores this combined feedback, both warnings will be timed-out.

Despite the functional differences, ISA systems based on each of those four options are considered equally safe and effective.

The basic speed limit information system (SLI - visual warning only), which is a technology available in some motor vehicles today, is estimated to be 20% less effective due to missed visual alerts by drivers. For this reason it is considered not sufficiently effective or appropriate to be provided as a feedback technology alone, in this Regulation.

Acoustic warning on the other hand is shown to be very effective in terms of driver reaction, but it is deemed annoying.

Annoyance is an important element regarding the choice of technology. For this reason, the cascaded acoustic warning option combines for each over-speeding event the non-annoying, but less effective, optical signal with the acoustic warning as a back-up. To make sure the warning does not become unappreciated, its duration is kept short. Hence, it is designed in such a way to mitigate annoyance appropriately."

Toyota have clearly adopted the "cascaded acoustic warning" option as a relatively simple enhancement to the "basic speed limit information system (SLI - visual warning only)" that some of us enjoy today. Exactly what other manufacturers choose to do only time will tell ...

Brilliant 😎.

But holy ffff. What kind of Nanny stuff is this. I'm all for safety improvements but taking away your decision making can also lead to accidents in some cases or prevent you avoiding one.

I also wondered about this one, since this should surely help the manufacturer to set better performance targets, which is another way of saying don't hack off the driver unnecessarily.

(e) its performance targets shall be set in order to avoid or minimise the error rate under real driving conditions."

[Nick72]

On 5/3/2024 at 12:37 AM, kucyk said:

I think it's EU regulation, part of ISA system, mandatory in 2024 cars. Looks like UK opted out but N.Ireland opted in 😆, so I guess Toyota, as usual, is too lazy to release a different version of software. It will be more annoying than, thanks god not present in our cars, start and stop system which resets to on state on each car start.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/eu-requires-cars-come-tech-slows-cars-speeding-uk-opts-out

https://www.reddit.com/r/mazda3/comments/1728q41/mazda_3_2024_eu_noise_beep_in_isa_system/ 🤡

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_GdMSxhCmU 🤡

 

 

I pray for a software update before I pick up mine in September.