0w8 oil. Durability or economy?

[nielshm]

In the last couple of years the ultra thin 0w8 has been standard for Yaris.

Over a lifespan, 150-200.000 miles, will the oil protect just as good as sligthly thicker 0w16 or 0w20?

When the engine is running and oil is moving, I don't think there's a problem. But if the car is parked for 2, 3, 7 days, will the oil drip off, not protecting metal surfaces with a proper/strong oil film? In that case, a cold start can be quite rough, wearing components in the first 10 seconds. 

Economy, MPG, CO2 emission is the goal. But does it just improve with out a risk of something wearing out or needs replacing?

[Bernard Foy]

Toyota spend billions of dollars on R&S, and have a world wide reputation for longevity and dependability to protect and I can't see them doing anything to damage that reputation. The dealer I use was putting in the wrong oil in the Mark4 Yaris until I told him it was not recommended to use any other oil, and to change it according to the handbook, until I pointed it out in the handbook he wouldn't believe me. The handbook even advises to put in the correct oil O8W asap. 

[nielshm]

CO2 reduction is the main reason to develop such oils.

Engine oil is also the most vital component in any engine, so when development require further tweaks to meet requirements, does that mean ICE is running out of possibilities to meet still lower limits to CO2, NOx etc.?

0w16 has been used in Toyota models since 2019 or so, replacing 0w20. 0w8 is a huge step in a rather short time period. 

It just makes me think, what's next?

[anchorman]

1 hour ago, nielshm said:

CO2 reduction is the main reason to develop such oils.

Engine oil is also the most vital component in any engine, so when development require further tweaks to meet requirements, does that mean ICE is running out of possibilities to meet still lower limits to CO2, NOx etc.?

0w16 has been used in Toyota models since 2019 or so, replacing 0w20. 0w8 is a huge step in a rather short time period. 

It just makes me think, what's next?

You can rest assured, they’ll be working on 0W/0 or as close as they can get.  It always amazes me how owners think they’ve thought of something that the developers haven’t.  I’ve been in these test facilities and the amount of testing that they’ve done on things even I, who’s got qualifications in engine design haven’t considered.  I’ve seen banks of engines inside test chambers that are barely recognisable for all the test clutter attached.  The oil has been developed so it doesn’t dry up and the tolerances in a modern Toyota engine are so fine that A, there is no appreciable gap for it to drain from and B, if you force a medium through a fine gap, it has to speed up.  The oil has circulated before it has finished cranking and started to run.  The oil has additives that stop the oil drying and make it cling.  It won’t let any dirt or debris settle, it keeps it in suspension.  When 20/50 oil was in use, engines used to clatter and rattle until the oil light went off and there was huge gaps where a crank or cam could come to rest and the chances of it draining were much higher.  Forget it, 0W/8 is the finest oil you can put in your engine to make it last hundred of thousands of miles.  

[TonyHSD]

Agreed. 
I also believe that wrong type of oil used in many Toyota engines is the main reason for higher oil consumption at later age. If your car comes from factory with 0w8 , stay on this grade and viscosity. What dealers are doing here in uk putting 5w30 or 10w30 in these cars is totally wrong. Those viscosity oils aren’t anywhere near what the engine needs to perform at its best and be best protected. Owners should also only use the exact oil viscosity through the life of the car. Thicker oils does not protect better, actually it’s opposite. 

[Roy124]

@FROSTYBALLS in 2021 said 0W-20 is Toyota's preferred oil.

However my handbook MY21 Yaris Cross states:

SAE 0W-8 is filled into your Toyota
vehicle at manufacturing, and the
best choice for good fuel economy
and good starting in cold weather. If
SAE 0W-8 oil is not available, SAE
0W-16 or 0W-20 oil may be used.
However, it should be replaced with
SAE 0W-8 at the next oil change.

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

@FROSTYBALLS in 2021 said 0W-20 is Toyota's preferred oil.

It isn't helpful misquoting or quoting out of context. This would be Toyota's preferred oil for some models - 3rd generation Yaris for example. Oil grades do vary between models, as does Toyota's preferred oil.

[nielshm]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

My handbook MY21 Yaris Cross states:

SAE 0W-8 is filled into your Toyota
vehicle at manufacturing, and the
best choice for good fuel economy
and good starting in cold weather. If
SAE 0W-8 oil is not available, SAE
0W-16 or 0W-20 oil may be used.
However, it should be replaced with
SAE 0W-8 at the next oil change.

There are oil tests, where Toyota 0w16 is out permormed by similar Mobil1 on term of cold flow properties. 

Of course the additive package can make some compensation.

[Cyker]

At the end of the day, the best oil to use is the oil the engine was designed for - Thick or thin has very little bearing (haha) on the level of protection.

The thing that protects is the film-strength of the oil - i.e. it's ability to cling to a surface and stop metal-on-metal contact, but the thickness of this film is also important.

In older engines, thicker oils were needed as tolerances were bigger - In these, thinner oils won't provide the right thickness of film on the surfaces to 'bear' the parts, and they'd flop about too much.

In newer engines, the opposite is true - Tolerances are much tighter, and thick oils will struggle to get through these tight gaps quickly enough, so there'd be much more start-up engine wear, whereas the thin oil will zip through and get to all the surfaces much faster. Additionally, a thicker oil would get scraped off the surfaces more as parts move, because the film thickness is too high for the rated tolerance, whereas thinner oils will have just the right film thickness to sit between said parts - It's all dependent on the engine's design.

In the hybrids especially, where the engine is constantly turning on and off, having a thin oil with a strong film strength is essential tor longevity, as it'll be able to get to where it's needed faster, while still leaving enough clinging to surfaces when the majority of it drains down when the engine stops.

[anchorman]

My M20 engine in the Lexus has a 0W/16 sticker under the bonnet.  I wanted to do an Intermediate oil change (to satisfy my curiosity) and having 15 litres of 0W/8 in stock from the slightly later M15 (3 cylinder version of my M20 4 cylinder engine), it made sense to me that had 0W/8 been available, they would have used it - it’s the same engine.  I emailed Lexus, knowing they’ve got direct link into Japan for dealer support but here’s where the system breaks down because you get a clerk who knows nothing about engines nor will they be bold enough to walk down to Engineering Support and ask them as I’d hoped.  They get the dealer to contact you and I can absolutely guarantee they won’t make that commitment because they at that stage had never even heard of it.  Since then, it’s popped up in the LBX which is the same as a Yaris….. sound like there’s a hole in my bucket song (if you’re old enough).  I gave the 0W/8 away and guess what oil the new 300h with the same (slightly modified but mechanically same) engine uses???   My point is that things change as time goes on which is what Frosty is alluding to.  Luckily I can get 0W/8 for £50 a gallon.  

[Cyker]

I kinda assumed the 0w16 was because they expected the M20 to see higher temps than the M15 (The 0w8 is already hilariously runny when it's at operating temperature. Also don't check your oil when the engine has just turned off.  Also I and my toasted finger tips would like a word with whoever decided to put the bonnet strut OVER the engine in the Mk4  )

 

 

[anchorman]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

I kinda assumed the 0w16 was because they expected the M20 to see higher temps than the M15 (The 0w8 is already hilariously runny when it's at operating temperature. Also don't check your oil when the engine has just turned off.  Also I and my toasted finger tips would like a word with whoever decided to put the bonnet strut OVER the engine in the Mk4  )

 

 

Yours is a bit hotter than anyone else’s because of the way you paste it around old London Town.  The speed cameras think Sonic lives there.  You also would better if possible to remove this oil “thickness” thing from your thought process.  These oils are going to go lower and lower in viscosity as soon as they can develop them.   You might even see minus numbers in time or they’ll use a different scale like they do with transmission oil.  Diesel will look thick in time.  

[Cyker]

I do wonder how they would go about labelling it, maybe -0 or -5 or 00??

Or even change the labelling completely so it's a code that includes the hot and cold viscosity, additive packages etc., so we might be using oils labelled e.g. 0M6WTF in the future   

[nielshm]

It's just a bit strange. Let's develop a engine the the finest tolerences in any car, let's develop a oil so thin, that Toyota is the only brand with such a oil.

Well, that's how we know Toyota, and they usually succeed with such development. But to install a 12V Battery that won't fail, and not admitting is just needs a replacement,I don't get it. 

And get rid of time noise, and update in-car tech, multimedia etc. to match other manufacturers, that's not important. 

[RonYarisX]

For those speculating on which oil is best.

As long as it's serviced by a franchised dealer, Toyota will warranty my car for 10 years. Or in other words, whatever oil they're using is fine by me. If I serviced the car myself and chose a different oil, they won't warranty the car.

For me it's one of lifes easier decisions. 🤣

[nielshm]

1 hour ago, RonYarisX said:

For those speculating on which oil is best.

As long as it's serviced by a franchised dealer, Toyota will warranty my car for 10 years. Or in other words, whatever oil they're using is fine by me. If I serviced the car myself and chose a different oil, they won't warranty the car.

For me it's one of lifes easier decisions. 🤣

Take a look at the section with items and conditions not covered by Relax.

In term of wear and tear within the engine, engine burning oil etc., it's going to be a real fight to make Toyota pay for anything. 

Toyota-Relax-Terms-and-Conditions.pdf

[anchorman]

2 hours ago, RonYarisX said:

For those speculating on which oil is best.

As long as it's serviced by a franchised dealer, Toyota will warranty my car for 10 years. Or in other words, whatever oil they're using is fine by me. If I serviced the car myself and chose a different oil, they won't warranty the car.

For me it's one of lifes easier decisions. 🤣

Me too.  Nobody is at gunpoint but after a lifetime of being connected to the motor industry, my experience tells me to stick with Toyota/Lexus.  I don’t blame the product for anything the dealer or Great Burgh do.

[Cyker]

4 hours ago, nielshm said:

It's just a bit strange. Let's develop a engine the the finest tolerences in any car, let's develop a oil so thin, that Toyota is the only brand with such a oil.

Well, that's how we know Toyota, and they usually succeed with such development. But to install a 12V battery that won't fail, and not admitting is just needs a replacement,I don't get it. 

And get rid of time noise, and update in-car tech, multimedia etc. to match other manufacturers, that's not important. 

You get used to this sort of thing when you're with Toyota for a while.

They'll make this amazing thing that has such attention to detail and everything just makes sense and is so intuitive, perfectly engineered, bullet proof... except for a handful of things that make absolutely no sense and are garbage and you're like, why, when they went to all the trouble of doing all that, did they do this.

It's almost like the whole car is designed by their crack engineering team, but it's work experience week, and to get the pesky work experience kids out the way so they can get on with their jobs, they give some parts that they figure nobody could possibly smeg up to the work experience interns who, against all odds, manage to smeg it up  

 

[forkingabout]

2 minutes ago, Cyker said:

It's almost like the whole car is designed by their crack engineering team, but it's work experience week, and to get the pesky work experience kids out the way so they can get on with their jobs, they give some parts that they figure nobody could possibly smeg up to the work experience interns who, against all odds, manage to smeg it up  

Sounds very familiar for the forklift side of the business to 😅

[anchorman]

1 hour ago, nielshm said:

Take a look at the section with items and conditions not covered by Relax.

In term of wear and tear within the engine, engine burning oil etc., it's going to be a real fight to make Toyota pay for anything. 

Toyota-Relax-Terms-and-Conditions.pdf 156.59 kB · 4 downloads

It sounds like you intend using the wrong oil.  If you follow the guidelines, the chances of fighting Toyota for anything are virtually nil.  

[TonyHSD]

I don’t know why is even a subject of discussion the oil viscosity of the latest models? 
Toyota knows what they are doing, and what we have to do is simple, just service on time with correct oils and lubricants, original or high quality aftermarket parts and your Toyota car will last forever, well almost for ever. And I know that from personal experience, not a YouTube 😉👌

[Cyker]

I guess everyone got bored of flaming about the 12v so maybe this is the next best thing??  

[anchorman]

8 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I guess everyone got bored of flaming about the 12v so maybe this is the next best thing??  

This is the equivalent of, I fully intend fitting the wrong 12v Battery then whining when it’s gone wrong.