Driverless Cars.

[Bper]

21 minutes ago, Mjolinor said:

I can't help thinking that these electric scooter trials have a hidden agenda to see how the public accepts non ownership with every aspect out of your control.

 

Hi John, you could be right about the e-scooters, they could be seeing how people feel about travelling around on scooters instead of owning a car, like a scootering version of Uber.

But there's a whole lot of BS going on beyond this. They consider the trials are important to make sure scooting is safe for everyone, both riders and pedestrians on the pavements and roads. They're no doubt collecting data on any bumps, spills, and near misses to see how things work in the real world. Plus they're probably trying to figure out the best rules of the road for scooters, like where to park them and how fast you can go. So who knows it could be a glimpse at the future of getting around.

[Roy124]

The problem is cars are not just a means of getting from A to B.  You load them up with wet weather gear when it's fine.  You leave books, papers,  phone chargers etc in them. 

[Haliotis]

Poor weather conditions are not a problem for radar, but it will depend on how much control is taken from the driver for an SDC to adjust to bad visibility.  If drivers were able to bypass that control, then many of them would.  On M-ways, I have been overtaken in foggy conditions where the vehicle suddenly disappears into the fog, and obviously trusting to luck that the road ahead remains clear.

The comment about mixed traffic conditions (SDCs and manually driven vehicles on the roads together) does raise concern for chaos.

Regarding traffic snarl-ups ay busy periods, I cannot see how SDCs would resolve that.  The only way out of that, that I can see, is if businesses could arrange for their employees to work staggered shifts and spread work travel over a wider period of time, and that raises a whole new argument.

Personally, I still believe that SDCs are a dream, and should they materialise they will be limited to M-ways and arterial highways.

[Bper]

22 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

Poor weather conditions are not a problem for radar, but it will depend on how much control is taken from the driver for an SDC to adjust to bad visibility.  If drivers were able to bypass that control, then many of them would.  On M-ways, I have been overtaken in foggy conditions where the vehicle suddenly disappears into the fog, and obviously trusting to luck that the road ahead remains clear.

The comment about mixed traffic conditions (SDCs and manually driven vehicles on the roads together) does raise concern for chaos.

Regarding traffic snarl-ups ay busy periods, I cannot see how SDCs would resolve that.  The only way out of that, that I can see, is if businesses could arrange for their employees to work staggered shifts and spread work travel over a wider period of time, and that raises a whole new argument.

Personally, I still believe that SDCs are a dream, and should they materialise they will be limited to M-ways and arterial highways.

Hi Albert,SDCs will probably need super sensors to navigate fog where humans might get nervous. SDCs wouldn't take risky chances in low visibility, potentially making roads safer for everyone.It's a valid concern to have both SDCs and regular cars on the road. As SDCs become more common, things will adapt, clearer traffic rules and maybe even road adjustments to make traffic run smoother. I agree rush hour is a nightmare, SDCs might actually help by reacting faster than humans, keeping traffic flowing. But your idea about staggered work hours is a good one as the way of working is changing. Maybe a combination of approaches is the answer. You might be right that SDCs might start on specific motorways. But as the tech gets better, they could tackle more complex roads as well.

[Bper]

37 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

The problem is cars are not just a means of getting from A to B.  You load them up with wet weather gear when it's fine.  You leave books, papers,  phone chargers etc in them. 

Roy,while cars can be mobile storage units, e-scooters can't replace that. But I wouldn't be surprised if trials are looking to see if e-scooters can fill a gap for trips where carrying extra things isn't necessary, quick errands, picking up light shopping, visiting friends etc. Maybe bridging the gap between public transport stops and the final destination.I would like to be a fly on the wall when these things are discussed.

[Haliotis]

At present, unless supported by a council-run scheme, e-scooters are illegal.  That will have to be got out of the way first.  Cannot see the legality difference between council-run and privately owned - except, perhaps, council-run will be certified as safe to operate.  Unless e-scooters were significantly redesigned, using them to carry shopping (even light goods) could be a safety problem - weight/bad stowage could cause loss of safe balance on the roads/pavements(?)

Then there is the question of misuse.  In our area there are a few teenagers with these scooters, and “two-up” riding is not uncommon. The main road through our town has a downhill split pedestrian/cycle route which leads towards the local Tesco.  Pupils from the upper school regularly visit the Tesco store, sometimes riding e-scooters. Here, the e-scooters gather a significant speed, and this is where I am expecting an accident with serious injuries to happen.  This is just one example of the dangers which the police are not bothering to address.

If/when the inevitable happens, we will yet again hear the stock phrase, “Lessons have been learned.”  For some unfortunate victim, the lesson will have come too late!

[Bper]

19 hours ago, Haliotis said:

At present, unless supported by a council-run scheme, e-scooters are illegal.  That will have to be got out of the way first.  Cannot see the legality difference between council-run and privately owned - except, perhaps, council-run will be certified as safe to operate.  Unless e-scooters were significantly redesigned, using them to carry shopping (even light goods) could be a safety problem - weight/bad stowage could cause loss of safe balance on the roads/pavements(?)

Then there is the question of misuse.  In our area there are a few teenagers with these scooters, and “two-up” riding is not uncommon. The main road through our town has a downhill split pedestrian/cycle route which leads towards the local Tesco.  Pupils from the upper school regularly visit the Tesco store, sometimes riding e-scooters. Here, the e-scooters gather a significant speed, and this is where I am expecting an accident with serious injuries to happen.  This is just one example of the dangers which the police are not bothering to address.

If/when the inevitable happens, we will yet again hear the stock phrase, “Lessons have been learned.”  For some unfortunate victim, the lesson will have come too late!

Albert,the legal status of e-scooters is restrictive outside of council run schemes. The difference between council run schemes and privately owned e-scooters lies in regulation and safety certification. Council run schemes make sure that e-scooters meet specific safety standards and are used in a controlled manner, with designated paths and speed limits. Privately owned e-scooters lack regulation, leading as we know to a multitude of safety issues.

Concerns about the dangers of using e-scooters, particularly with respect to carrying shopping or misuse by teenagers is understood. The additional weight and improper stowage of items could well affect the balance and stability of the e-scooter, increasing the risk of accidents.The issue of misuse such as two up riding and speeding, especially on downhill routes has many safety risks. As is often reported these stupid behaviors can lead to serious accidents, particularly in areas with high pedestrian traffic, like near schools and shopping centers.

Without regulation and enforcement the likelihood of accidents increases. The recurring phrase “Lessons have been learned “,often as you say follows similar incidents.A number of methods to address these issues have been discussed and some are. Extending the same safety and operational regulations of council run schemes to privately owned e-scooters. This could include mandatory safety certifications and the adherence to designated usage areas.

Public Awareness Campaigns,educating users, particularly teenagers, about the safe and responsible use of e-scooters.Enhanced enforcement, increasing police patrols and enforcement of e-scooter laws to prevent misuse and unsafe behaviors.Infrastructure Improvements, developing dedicated lanes and paths for e-scooters to separate them from pedestrians and vehicles, reducing the risk of accidents.

[Haliotis]

“Council-run schemes make sure that e-scooters meet specific safety standards and are used in a controlled manner ………….”

The big question is, “How will they police the requirement for these e-scooters to be used correctly?”  It is going to be difficult to control what type of person uses them, or to ensure they are only used on dedicated pathways.

Introduction of these e-scooters will probably be based on two main principles (a) to drive the big, bad motorcar out of town centres, and (b) to add profit to the council coffers.  Any remaining problems will, as usual, be down to the general public having to cope with the risks created by the e-scooters being amongst us.

[Bper]

1 hour ago, Haliotis said:

“Council-run schemes make sure that e-scooters meet specific safety standards and are used in a controlled manner ………….”

The big question is, “How will they police the requirement for these e-scooters to be used correctly?”  It is going to be difficult to control what type of person uses them, or to ensure they are only used on dedicated pathways.

Introduction of these e-scooters will probably be based on two main principles (a) to drive the big, bad motorcar out of town centres, and (b) to add profit to the council coffers.  Any remaining problems will, as usual, be down to the general public having to cope with the risks created by the e-scooters being amongst us.

Albert, It's true that controlling who uses the scooters and keeping them on designated pathways do require tough measures.Some of the ideas recommended are strict licensing and registration that require users to register and possibly even obtain a permit or license to use e-scooters. For instance schemes like TfL's rental e-scooter trial require users to have at least a provisional driving license. Implement geofencing to limit e-scooters to specific areas. This technology can automatically slow down or disable scooters that enter prohibited zones, similar to the measures used in the trials in cities like Birmingham and Bristol.Allocate resources for regular patrols and enforcement of e-scooter regulations. This can involve both police and dedicated e-scooter monitors. The Metropolitan Police have already been involved in enforcing e-scooter rules during the London trials.Impose fines and other penalties for misuse, such as riding on pavements or in pedestrian areas. Current trials already include fines for breaking the rules, which could be expanded upon.

While these measures may not eliminate all risks, they can significantly mitigate the issues and make the integration of e-scooters safer and more controlled.

[Mjolinor]

Do I detect some "bah humbug" going on here. I would have killed for an escooter when I was ten years old. 🙂

The problem of bicycles and escooters is huge. They should start by enforcing some sort of insurance / licensing on bike riders over perhaps 14. No one wants to stop kids from learning to ride bikes, it is there first taste of freedom and very important but the mamils and other non=child bike riders need to be accountable and they currently are not. You hit a bike on a zebra crossing and they lock you up and throw the key away despite the fact that he should not be there and if he is tramping along as they do on the pavement he may not even be visible as you approach. It is still your fault though. Being psychic is fast becoming a requirement for any motorist.

[Haliotis]

The problem started with the anti-motorcar brigade and the clean-air environmentalists, closely followed by local councils and then the government.  All banner-waving for using bikes or public transport, or go on foot.

Having no brain power to understand why many people cannot do any of these things (age, infirmity, physical disabilities), they bolster laws that are supposed to make it safer for bikes and pedestrians, and at the same bring in road and parking obstacles for car drivers, along with threats against said drivers if they cause injury to cyclist or pedestrian.  And all this without redress against cyclist or pedestrian if it is they who cause the accident.

Knowing all this, many cyclists and pedestrians use the public highway aggressively -  using unsafe/illegal manoeuvres to virtually bait the motorist.

So, instead of developing a mutual attitude where all users of the highway show respect and consideration for others, the roads have become war zones - and all this because of the clumsy activities of Authority.

[Bper]

42 minutes ago, Mjolinor said:

Do I detect some "bah humbug" going on here. I would have killed for an escooter when I was ten years old. 🙂

The problem of bicycles and escooters is huge. They should start by enforcing some sort of insurance / licensing on bike riders over perhaps 14. No one wants to stop kids from learning to ride bikes, it is there first taste of freedom and very important but the mamils and other non=child bike riders need to be accountable and they currently are not. You hit a bike on a zebra crossing and they lock you up and throw the key away despite the fact that he should not be there and if he is tramping along as they do on the pavement he may not even be visible as you approach. It is still your fault though. Being psychic is fast becoming a requirement for any motorist.

John,my experience of e-scooters like many others has not been a good one. On a couple of occasions the speed and quietness of these scooters have come so close to myself and my wife while walking on the pavement that I am in no doubt had i have moved a few Inches from my path I would have ended up with a serious injury. Despite this the speed they go past you is ridiculous. The other issue is how would you claim against them in the event of an accident.

I do not want to take away the fun of these for the youngsters but they must be licensed and insured and have restrictions that prohibite them from pavement areas unless a designated cycle lane permits. 

[Bper]

27 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

The problem started with the anti-motorcar brigade and the clean-air environmentalists, closely followed by local councils and then the government.  All banner-waving for using bikes or public transport, or go on foot.

Having no brain power to understand why many people cannot do any of these things (age, infirmity, physical disabilities), they bolster laws that are supposed to make it safer for bikes and pedestrians, and at the same bring in road and parking obstacles for car drivers, along with threats against said drivers if they cause injury to cyclist or pedestrian.  And all this without redress against cyclist or pedestrian if it is they who cause the accident.

Knowing all this, many cyclists and pedestrians use the public highway aggressively -  using unsafe/illegal manoeuvres to virtually bait the motorist.

So, instead of developing a mutual attitude where all users of the highway show respect and consideration for others, the roads have become war zones - and all this because of the clumsy activities of Authority.

Albert,your right but this push for zero carbon and the green agendas has led the councils to prioritise the cyclists at the detriment to motorists and other road users. What i would like to know is how is this going to change. Anyone got any constructive ideas.

[Cyker]

e-scooters are in a weird limbo down here - They're technically illegal (Except for the gov-run ones), but that isn't enforced at all, to the point where the police will do a cyclist for riding on the pavement or riding without lights as it gets darker, but completely ignore e-scooters jumping on and off pavements, riding through red lights etc..

The only time I've seen one get pulled is one of those mega powerful 2WD ones that have full suspension and can do 40+mph, and only because the guy riding it was too stupid/honest to just ride off - If he had, the policeman yelling at him wouldn't have been able to do anything about it.

Now they are so popular and ubiquitous I don't see how they'll be able to do anything, as they have no identification and the police don't have the manpower to even make a dent in them.

The funny thing is the requirement for license details on the gov ones will just push more people into personal ones as there is no way to enforce restrictions on those!

[Bper]

5 minutes ago, Cyker said:

e-scooters are in a weird limbo down here - They're technically illegal (Except for the gov-run ones), but that isn't enforced at all, to the point where the police will do a cyclist for riding on the pavement or riding without lights as it gets darker, but completely ignore e-scooters jumping on and off pavements, riding through red lights etc..

The only time I've seen one get pulled is one of those mega powerful 2WD ones that have full suspension and can do 40+mph, and only because the guy riding it was too stupid/honest to just ride off - If he had, the policeman yelling at him wouldn't have been able to do anything about it.

Now they are so popular and ubiquitous I don't see how they'll be able to do anything, as they have no identification and the police don't have the manpower to even make a dent in them.

The funny thing is the requirement for license details on the gov ones will just push more people into personal ones as there is no way to enforce restrictions on those!

So lets put number plates and licence and insure them. As we seem to have camaras that can pick up motorists for scratching their Ar**in the car then whats the problem. More revenue plus accountability and insurance protection for both in the event of an accident.

[Haliotis]

But the volume of illegal e-scooters is expanding all the time.  The police are ignoring them, and the government are doing nothing to change that.  The time is rapidly approaching (already here?) when the police have too little manpower to locate and prosecute the riders, and confiscate the scooters.

If a car driver hit an e-scooter, it is more likely that the car driver would face prosecution - you see, drivers are already considered easy targets for extracting revenue, whereas the e-scooter rider may plead poverty and he/she and the family have no available funds to collect.  The e-scooter could have been stolen but, because they are illegal, there is likely to be no traceable record of purchase.

[Bper]

Albert,Well it appears there is going to be even less police as they are leaving in droves. I think it may eventually come down to either local councils employing their own task forces with the power of arrest or private companies licensed with the same powers. Something has to be done about the level of both crime and this lawlessness that is plaguing this country.

As I said above license plates, insurance and a ownership record with a log book system so they can be traced and fined or banned depending on the offence.

[Haliotis]

I fully agree with you, Bob.  Unfortunately, any UK government will only concentrate on things which either earns them a feel good factor, or collects cash for the treasury.   It is far too much trouble for them to tackle what they see as petty crime, regardless of how individuals of the public are adversely affected.