Hybrid use question

[Slartibartfarst42]

I currently own a Hyundai Ioniq and a Toyota Yaris hybrid. We will be retiring soon so we will change two cars for one. There are three possibilities: an updated Ioniq, a Toyota C-HR or a Toyota Yaris Cross. I like the size and extra height of the Toyota's but this will also be down to economy and my only experience of Toyota hybrid technology so far has been disappointing.

I find that the Yaris will only use EV mode up to 40mph and under no circumstances use EV after that. Furthermore, even when it is in EV mode, it reverts to the ICE very easily. With careful driving, I can get 65mpg in the summer and struggle to get 60mpg in the winter. 

In comparison, my Ioniq will move into EV mode at any speed and stay there for longer far more easily. Even at 75mph it will switch to EV mode if there is enough charge in the batteries. Despite the fact that the Ioniq is far bigger and heavier than the Yaris, with a much higher specification, it will always get more mpg than the Yaris. In the winter in poor conditions for economy I can easily achieve 60-65mpg. In the summer on a long journey at a fairly steady 60-65mph I can nudge 85mpg, dwarfing what the Yaris can achieve.

Given that in the summer I can get an extra 20mpg out of the Ioniq over the Yaris, I am naturally hesitant about getting either of the Toyota versions. 

For those who have used the C-HR and Yaris Cross hybrids, do they operate like the Yaris or Ioniq? On a long journey at a steady 60mpg, will they get anywhere close to the 85mpg the Ioniq will do? 

[philip42h]

9 minutes ago, Slartibartfarst42 said:

There are three possibilities: an updated Ioniq, a Toyota C-HR or a Toyota Yaris Cross.

You won't get an updated Ioniq - it has been discontinued by Hyundai. You don't give the spec of your Ioniq, so I tried to look it up (and failed, obviously).

You misunderstand the Toyota hybrid system. TBH "EV mode" is a bit of a misnomer since all the energy is derived from burning fuel - hence the self-charging hybrid moniker. But our cars will use recovered energy via the electric motors at any speed. You get what you get, but these days the WLTP figures give a very good idea of what we can reasonably expect from a Toyota hybrid.

You don't say how you are measuring fuel consumption but with the Ioniq you can nudge 85 mpg. With the RAV4 I can 'nudge' 99 mpg but that's not a meaningful figure - my actual brim-to-brim measurements are closer to 45 mpg ... 😉

If economy is your most important consideration and you truly get 85 mpg from the Ioniq - keep it! 👍

[flash22]

the 2024 ch-r and the YC both run the newer gen hybrid system what is much more efficient there is a large difference between the MK3 and 4 Yaris

[Mojo1010]

Getting near 60mpg in winter on the gen 3 Yaris is better than when I had it, I was getting low 50s for my type of driving. The gen4 Yaris can go 60mph on Battery and has a higher mpg, returning 70+ in summer. Recently 'nudged' 89.9 mpg on a 20 miles run. I have the hatchback gen4. 

The YC and chr will not get close to 85mpg. Better off to keep the ioniq if mpg is your main criteria. 

[philip42h]

The only Toyota that is truly comparable to the original Hyundai Ioniq is the Prius - and in terms of WLTP economy, the Prius wins. The current generation Prius comes as a plug-in hybrid only which really will be economical in terms of fuel used!

There is, of course, a PHEV version of the latest C-HR ...

[TonyHSD]

Toyota hybrids are way better and more efficient than any other hybrid system available currently. The Hyundai hybrid system it’s not as efficient as it shows on the dashboard on real world plus they does not drive as good and in a long run they are time bombs with expensive clutch £3000+ that will fail similarly to vw dsg transmissions, not if but when? 
For me it’s Toyota. 👍

[Cyker]

3 hours ago, Slartibartfarst42 said:

I currently own a Hyundai Ioniq and a Toyota Yaris hybrid. We will be retiring soon so we will change two cars for one. There are three possibilities: an updated Ioniq, a Toyota C-HR or a Toyota Yaris Cross. I like the size and extra height of the Toyota's but this will also be down to economy and my only experience of Toyota hybrid technology so far has been disappointing.

I find that the Yaris will only use EV mode up to 40mph and under no circumstances use EV after that. Furthermore, even when it is in EV mode, it reverts to the ICE very easily. With careful driving, I can get 65mpg in the summer and struggle to get 60mpg in the winter. 

In comparison, my Ioniq will move into EV mode at any speed and stay there for longer far more easily. Even at 75mph it will switch to EV mode if there is enough charge in the batteries. Despite the fact that the Ioniq is far bigger and heavier than the Yaris, with a much higher specification, it will always get more mpg than the Yaris. In the winter in poor conditions for economy I can easily achieve 60-65mpg. In the summer on a long journey at a fairly steady 60-65mph I can nudge 85mpg, dwarfing what the Yaris can achieve.

Given that in the summer I can get an extra 20mpg out of the Ioniq over the Yaris, I am naturally hesitant about getting either of the Toyota versions. 

For those who have used the C-HR and Yaris Cross hybrids, do they operate like the Yaris or Ioniq? On a long journey at a steady 60mpg, will they get anywhere close to the 85mpg the Ioniq will do? 

That's very impressive if you're getting that 85mpg over a tank, and I'd love to know how you're getting that!! Most of the ioniqs I've seen don't get anywhere near that in general use across a tank of fuel, and are more in the high-50s/low-60's ballpark!

Unless yours is a PHEV ioniq? But with all PHEVs the mpg reading is just a lie as it doesn't count the electricity used, so you can essentially get infinity mpg by only plugging in.  

In my non-Cross Yaris Mk4, I regularly average low-mid 70's across a tank in a mixture of urban and fast roads, but can hit the low 80's in summer if I drive really disciplined (But that's boring and not fun so I very rarely do that  )

If we're talking peak instantaneous mpg or single-trip mpg, then fair enough, but those are also very misleading.

If your experiences are with a Mk3 Yaris, it was set up more for urban use and has the same issue all the previous-gen HSD's had, which is the electric-side of the system can't keep the engine off above ~40mph ish, so it's forced to run when you go faster than that.

The newer ones, esp. the 5th gen with the beefier electric motors, no longer have that issue - If I'm going down a sufficiently steep hill in my 4th-gen HSD Mk4 Yaris, it will stay on electric-only up to 80-ish mph before the engine is forced to kick in, but realistically can't hold the car above 60mph on its own on a flat road because the electric motor isn't strong enough (Which is one reason I'd like the newer 130HP one as it has a more powerful electric motor good for sustaining higher speeds, but am put off by all the new interfering systems mandated in newer cars...  ).

The newer HSDs have come a long way from the one in the Mk3 Yaris.

That all said, if you're really getting 85mpg from your ioniq you better just keep it as it clearly suits your driving style!

[Parts-King]

I have had a few CHR, I get 58-60 out of them, I'm not light footed but also not an idiot driver either, 70-80 MPH on dual carriageways, 50-60 on A roads, great car to drive too, very comfortable on a long journey 

[taxidriver50005]

I recently had a spell in a kia xceed phv and was impressed with economy.. It really was a different experience to Toyota... Both have pluses and minuses... Kia would immediately drop down a gear on the motorway at the slightest sign of a hill.. Sending revs soaring...... In traffic the lurching the box does when your crawling along never knowing whether the clutch will disengage before you come to a stop and causing all kind of juddering is down right annoying,... Yes the car would use ev more than Toyota but it certainly wasn't predictable... Pull out of a junction and it would either be on electric motor or petrol and both give different hp and torque so you never really knew how the car would react... Then as others have said reliability.... Clutch actuators aren't cheap at around £3500....get the later kia/hyundai hybrids with the new 7 speed box's and they are failing at a unreal rate... Average time for a warrenty replacement box is 6 months. 

Toyota really can't match 85mpg although I have seen 79mpg on a long run but I wouldn't say that was normal... What is normal is a smooth predictable drive that stands up well to very high mileage and abuse. 

We all make our own choice here and my last Toyota lasted 400,000 miles before I got board of it and sold it on to buy another Toyota. 

[AJones]

7 hours ago, Slartibartfarst42 said:

There are three possibilities: an updated Ioniq, a Toyota C-HR or a Toyota Yaris Cross. I like the size and extra height of the Toyota's but this will also be down to economy...

Given your focus on economy and the portion of time the car stays in EV mode, why are you considering regular hybrids when the EV part is always minimal, you might be far happier with either a PHEV or a full EV.

If you are considering Yaris and C-HR, then something like a Hyundai Kona EV with a long range 64kWh Battery might be worth considering, these are now quite reasonably priced. Or a if buying new, a C-HR PHEV. 

1 hour ago, taxidriver50005 said:

Toyota really can't match 85mpg although I have seen 79mpg on a long run but I wouldn't say that was normal... What is normal is a smooth predictable drive that stands up well to very high mileage and abuse. 

Petrol-only, I find the Prius PHEV gets into the 70s mpg range but anything over 80 is rare.

But once you plug it in, and this all depends on your personal mixture of short vs long journeys, the average is much higher in the 150mpg range.

[Roy124]

I found the 1.5 3-cyl Yaris Cross  less economical than the 1.8 4-cyl Corolla.   In winter I get about 55-57 and 10 mpg better in summer.  The Corolla has a lower Cd.

If I am on a non motorway run I can get low 70s.  The car will select EV at any speed it thinks fit.

[ninanina]

On 5/31/2024 at 2:47 PM, TonyHSD said:

Toyota hybrids are way better and more efficient than any other hybrid system available currently. The Hyundai hybrid system it’s not as efficient as it shows on the dashboard on real world plus they does not drive as good and in a long run they are time bombs with expensive clutch £3000+ that will fail similarly to vw dsg transmissions, not if but when? 
For me it’s Toyota. 👍

Totally agree 

I have also ridden in the back of an Ioniq and didn’t find it very comfortable at all; my Prius is much more comfortable, even in the back seat 

[taxidriver50005]

30 mile motorway run this morning..... Probably upper side of normal for my 2.0 ts excel 

[Red_Corolla]

Lest we forget, figures provided by the dashboard are pretty meaningless, on any vehicle. Refuel volume vs miles driven remains the only true metric by which you can measure fuel economy with anywhere near reasonable accuracy. Even then, it varies slightly depending on how well you fill it - best to use an average of 3 or 4 refills.

[Paul john]

3 minutes ago, Red_Corolla said:

Lest we forget, figures provided by the dashboard are pretty meaningless, on any vehicle. Refuel volume vs miles driven remains the only true metric by which you can measure fuel economy with anywhere near reasonable accuracy. Even then, it varies slightly depending on how well you fill it - best to use an average of 3 or 4 refills.

How do you calculate the ev element per journey if you are only measuring the fuel topup?

granted your method will give you the tank by tank overall average but not individual journeys.

my “tank” average is a combination of 3mile trips to station and 300 mile trips to customers giving me 60mpg. 
i get way more than 60mpg on the long journeys but way less for short hops on a cold morning. 

[philip42h]

26 minutes ago, Paul john said:

How do you calculate the ev element per journey if you are only measuring the fuel topup?

There is no "EV element" with a standard hybrid. All miles are achieved by burning fuel - we don't have the option to add charge any other way. So the brim-to-brim miles per gallon is a good, if not the best, way to calculate fuel consumption.

With a PHEV it would get more complicated, and we'd have to account for fuel and electricity separately. Any MPG figure then becomes very personal.

[Paul john]

26 minutes ago, philip42h said:

There is no "EV element" with a standard hybrid. All miles are achieved by burning fuel - we don't have the option to add charge any other way. So the brim-to-brim miles per gallon is a good, if not the best, way to calculate fuel consumption.

With a PHEV it would get more complicated, and we'd have to account for fuel and electricity separately. Any MPG figure then becomes very personal.

Lol. HEV too  

then why does my journey stat say % ev mode ?
and why do i get a ev icon light during motorway journeys?

and why do i have a Battery?

[forkingabout]

The sensible option for the OP would be to just keep the Ioniq they already have seeing as they love its economy so much.

[philip42h]

17 minutes ago, Paul john said:

Lol. HEV too  

then why does my journey stat say % ev mode ?
and why do i get a ev icon light during motorway journeys?

and why do i have a battery?

Well, since you ask:

• why does my journey stat say % ev mode ? - that bit is pure marketing b/s ... 😉
• why do i get a ev icon light during motorway journeys? - to show when the petrol engine has been switched off.
• why do i have a Battery? - to hold the energy recovered through regenerative braking and though self-charging (i.e. running the petrol engine as a generator).

At one level, the hybrid system is merely a way to make the petrol go further - it's a very good mechanism but it isn't magic. All the motive force used the propel the car ultimately derives from burning a fossil fuel.

[Roy124]

@Red_Corolla is right that accurate mpg is only achieved filling tank to tank at the same temperature and a given drive profile.

For all practical purposes the in car display is adequate. 

[TonyHSD]

Car dashboard fuel consumption readings only close to real world mpg if you drive longer journeys and over a longer time., any other cases they are either too optimistic or simply unrealistic.
The only correct way to establish real world fuel consumption is to fill up full, drive at least 200 miles or few days and refill again, do the maths and see what you have 👍

[philip42h]

2 hours ago, Roy124 said:

For all practical purposes the in car display is adequate. 

I'm not disagreeing with you, but 'adequate' for what? How do you use the displayed data?

Mine shows the per trip (engine on to engine off) values. I'm convinced that they are perfectly accurate enough for each trip, and interesting / amusing in that context. But I can't realistically integrate across trips to get an overall consumption figure - for that, I use brim-to-brim measurements just as I have for the past 1000 years (well it feels that long).

Alternative settings would give me a reading per tank - which I have anyway - or a reading since I last reset the trip meter. And that might be an interesting alternative - reset the trip meter on the first of each month and get economy figures by month throughout the year ... ?

Either way, I'm happy that the displayed consumption figures are acceptably accurate these days - the question then is how we use them ...

[Red_Corolla]

4 hours ago, Paul john said:

How do you calculate the ev element per journey if you are only measuring the fuel topup?

Same method. The equivalent of a flow meter on a fuel pump would be a KWh meter on your charging station. Per-journey isn't practical to do, but then again, I don't see the relevance of such information when all journeys have to be paid for. If I look at the stats for driving home from my in-laws then the economy is always fantastic - it's all downhill.

[Roy124]

36 minutes ago, Red_Corolla said:

If I look at the stats for driving home from my in-laws then the economy is always fantastic - it's all downhill.

That's only to be expected.   But what are the roads like.😀

[AndrueC]

Having an electric motor is not about running entirely on electricity - at least not with Toyota HSD. With HSD the electric motor is there to assist the ICE so that it can be operated at its most efficient for what the driver is trying to do.

In a PHEV running entirely on electricity can be very beneficial as it potentially means never burning any fuel. However with HSD fuel always has to be burnt in order to move (either during or before the movement). So for HSD it's not about avoiding burning fuel it's about reducing the amount that has to be burnt.

The ability to run purely on electric power is a big advantage at low loads because petrol ICE are very inefficient at doing that but at more normal loads simply giving the ICE a helping hand now and again will help improve efficiency.

Interestingly due to how HSD works there are times when the load on the ICE is increased beyond what is needed to propel the vehicle. The surplus energy is diverted into the Battery for later use. This is because ICE tend to be most efficient when working hard so whilst you might be burning more fuel per mile driven you are extracting more energy from the fuel per unit burnt.

As for which is best (PHEV v 'self-charging') that depends on the electricity mix used to power the grid and also to some arguable extent on what kind of tariff you are on.