Rav4 HEV or PHEV?

[Graham1969]

16 minutes ago, Flatcoat said:

Why are you not contacting the installer/supplier? Toyota simply pay for it and contract it out, in my case British Gas/Hive. I dealt directly with them with my install. 

 

I have been speaking to both but British Gas have no idea why the homecharge doesn't work but blame Toyota, Toyota blame British Gas pathetic really.

[ernieb]

I still use my 240v granny charger so have no experience of the BG/HIVE changer install. But I recon that your best bet would be to keep pushing BT/Hive. You're not the first to report instal issues.

[Flatcoat]

The charger install and commissioning has absolutely nothing to do with Toyota. Contact BG and make a formal complaint. I had problems with my install too. I got hold of the company chairman’s email address and it soon got sorted……

[philip42h]

Meanwhile, back on topic - Rav4 HEV or PHEV? The PHEV must be considered a compromise between an ICE based car (like the HEV) and a full EV. Whether that compromise gives the best or worst of both worlds will depend on usage and point of view. Once folk get to worrying about fuel going stale in the tank it becomes difficult to justify the PHEV as "best of both worlds" and the alternatives are probably worth considering ...

Back in the day, before I retired, my daily commute to the office was 80 miles (40 miles each way). That's too far for the PHEV but probably far enough to justify having one. But since no one I worked with actually worked at that office, I tended to work from home instead unless I needed to be in London - a 5 mile round trip to the station - or at one of the other offices - a weekly 300 mile round trip. So, I certainly wouldn't have need to worry about stale fuel and whether I ran a HEV or PHEV was really a matter of choice - the PHEV was overkill for the short trips and not really man enough for the long ones. (And at the time I ran a diesel RAV4).

To the point, the EV range on the PHEV is around 50 miles. The range on a full EV should be between 150 miles and 250 miles. If our regular daily commute is with the range of an EV and our need for longer journeys is minimal, we should be considering an EV instead. If our commute is relatively short and our need for longer journeys is significant, we could reasonably be considering the HEV instead.

Just a thought ... the PHEV is still the better car, but whether it is the better choice will depend on circumstances.

[Flatcoat]

I personally think the stale fuel issue is a disappearing down a rabbit hole topic. The PHEV is a great car, and no one has yet touched on the GTI matching performance, which is another plus for me! 

[Mead]

I also think the stale fuel need not be a worry. It is simple enough to run the car in hybrid mode or even charge the Battery to use fuel after a few weeks or a month or so to replenish the tank. Also apart from the advantages of 50 mile range on electric for local trips I agree the performance is very good at 6 seconds for 0-60mph if thats how you want to drive it sometimes!

[NASY]

Well it's interesting what each of us sees as compromise. For me the PHEV is a no compromise solution whereas an EV would be highly compromised. I wouldn't like to live with only one source of heating in my house any more than I would want to rely on electricity only for transport, contingency is maybe higher on my list than most. 

[Flatcoat]

An EV is simply a non-starter for me and probably always will be. However that is another debate and topic in itself! 

[TonyHSD]

Bevs will disappear and be banned before the ice just because of their batteries. 
Car batteries are the biggest problem. They are simply a toxic waste, impossible to recycle clean and a toxic to produce. Just watch what is happening soon. A global turnaround against bevs is around the corner and Battery gate is coming, no doubt about it.  With that in mind the only electrified cars that makes sense to buy and own in any form imo are Toyota hev. The phev have their advantage but they also do carry a huge disadvantage similar to bev,. A big traction Battery. 
The ideal car no matter it’s size, shape or type is the car that has the smallest engine and the smallest energy source or storage  ( tank or battery). The most efficient power train and the lightest total mass. 
 

[AJones]

3 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Bevs will disappear and be banned before the ice just because of their batteries. 
Car batteries are the biggest problem. They are simply a toxic waste, impossible to recycle clean and a toxic to produce. Just watch what is happening soon.

Things move on, there's now a number of companies which recycle lithium ion batteries, breaking them down into their component parts to extract the valuable heavy metals and recycle the content.

3 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

The ideal car no matter it’s size, shape or type is the car that has the smallest engine and the smallest energy source or storage  ( tank or battery). The most efficient power train and the lightest total mass. 

In order of efficiency and emissions of power train and use, goes EV most efficient and lowest emissions, PHEV somewhere behind, then HEV. The ability to charge up with electric from a mix of renewables, nuclear and efficient CCGT means any car which can be plugged in will always out perform one relying on an internal combustion engine burning petrol or diesel.

[Flatcoat]

2 hours ago, AJones said:

Things move on, there's now a number of companies which recycle lithium ion batteries, breaking them down into their component parts to extract the valuable heavy metals and recycle the content.

In order of efficiency and emissions of power train and use, goes EV most efficient and lowest emissions, PHEV somewhere behind, then HEV. The ability to charge up with electric from a mix of renewables, nuclear and efficient CCGT means any car which can be plugged in will always out perform one relying on an internal combustion engine burning petrol or diesel.

EV’s more efficient? Pray tell…. 

[philip42h]

32 minutes ago, Flatcoat said:

EV’s more efficient? Pray tell…. 

I guess it depends on the sum you do ... this article "Are EVs or ICE Vehicles More Energy Efficient?" quotes 75-84% of original energy is lost with an ICE, while 31-35% of original energy is lost with an EV.

[Cyker]

No question EVs have better energy conversion efficiency, but I don't buy my vehicles for their conversion efficiency - I buy them for practical transport and low running costs, and current EVs just don't come close to my Mk1 D4D or Mk4 hybrid for either.

 

[Nick72]

On 6/14/2024 at 9:31 PM, philip42h said:

I guess it depends on the sum you do ... this article "Are EVs or ICE Vehicles More Energy Efficient?" quotes 75-84% of original energy is lost with an ICE, while 31-35% of original energy is lost with an EV.

That's conversion efficiency which is not the same as overall efficiency nor what really matters which is the holistic cost per mile. For that you got to factor in the higher weight of an EV (for the equivalent class of vehicle) and as F = m * a that means more force required and as Work Done (energy) = F * d that means more energy is required. Then there's the acquisition cost, depreciation costs and energy consumption costs per mile. The latter is pretty close these days when considering a high mpg hybrid.

 

Lots of factors and a function of use case as to whether EVs win or lose versus PHEVs and hybrids. 

[Nick72]

Just on the stake fuel issue, that worried me at first, but largely because we were still in the COVID lock down period and I was doing very occasional short trips of a mile to 8 miles so almost always in EV mode. 

These days whilst most of my trips are in the 1 to 30 miles window I'm out 2 to 4 times a month on a round trip of 200 to 550 miles on motorways. So I get through a tank of petrol or three a month, factoring the 50 miles of EV into the equation. I don't pay for most of that petrol as it is usually business trips.

Reality is if most of your mileage is short trips and therefore almost always in EV mode (therefore you are worried about stale gas) then you probably should have got a BEV? 

[ernieb]

The PHEV will cycle the ICE on after a period of inactivity so that the oils/fuel will moved through the system. This has happened to me many times over the 3 years of ownership. The car will remain in EV mode so that once the the ICE is hot and the ECU happy the car will automatically return to using the traction Battery.

I occasionally fire up the ICE if I figure that the remaining traction Battery range guess is less than I know I need to cover, that way the ICE does not fire and not complete it’s heating cycle before I get to my destination.

[J2024IE]

I went with the Rav4 Hev in the end, I like the higher driving position. the adaptive cruise control buttons slightly different than the corolla TS.

is it possible to show the Battery charge icon on the right part of the 12.3 screen, like on the corolla TS.?

 

 

[Uragan]

A couple of questions regarding PHEV …. 
1/ how long does it take to charge from a 3 pin plug normal 13 amp household socket ?

2/ is the best mode  to drive a PHEV .. ie in ev mode until the engine kicks in then recharge…..

OR .. select hev mode and go a lot further until the Battery needs a recharge ? 

 

[philip42h]

35 minutes ago, Uragan said:

A couple of questions regarding PHEV …. 
1/ how long does it take to charge from a 3 pin plug normal 13 amp household socket ?

2/ is the best mode  to drive a PHEV .. ie in ev mode until the engine kicks in then recharge…..

OR .. select hev mode and go a lot further until the battery needs a recharge ? 

 

1) Nominally 8 hours - 18.1 kWh / 2.3 kW - but it won't ever be 'empty' when you plug it in so it shouldn't ever take that long to get back to 100%.

2) Leave it alone and just drive it. It will select EV mode by default and then switch to hybrid mode as and when it needs to. You would need a fairly detailed understanding of your likely journey to do any better than the car will do by default.

 

But I don't have one ... 😉

[Graham1969]

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

1) Nominally 8 hours - 18.1 kWh / 2.3 kW - but it won't ever be 'empty' when you plug it in so it shouldn't ever take that long to get back to 100%.

2) Leave it alone and just drive it. It will select EV mode by default and then switch to hybrid mode as and when it needs to. You would need a fairly detailed understanding of your likely journey to do any better than the car will do by default.

 

But I don't have one ... 😉

I do have one and as mentioned above leaving on auto EV it will try to use Battery only until it's EV range is empty (if you accelerate too hard the engine will fire up!). So for short journeys if the Battery is charged that's perfect, but for longer journeys especially motorway journeys I prefer to use HEV mode and save the charge, mostly because I wouldn't want a cold engine firing up at motorway speeds. I generally pop it into EV mode and use the charge for the last 20 miles or so of a round trip in each direction.

Hope this helps

[ernieb]

I tend to charge mine overnight and set a leaving time so the car sorts out when to start charging based on remaining Battery capacity, temperature etc.

I’ve done some testing over the last few years and frankly I leave it in EV mode and let the car sort out switching to HEV mode. Unless I’m within a few miles of home and calculate that the HEV mode switch will take place before the ICE has time to fully heat and I stop the car. Under these circumstances the car will generally continue to use the EV mode but the Battery will be charged/maintained whilst the ICE heats up.

[Flatcoat]

10 hours ago, Graham1969 said:

I do have one and as mentioned above leaving on auto EV it will try to use battery only until it's EV range is empty (if you accelerate too hard the engine will fire up!). So for short journeys if the battery is charged that's perfect, but for longer journeys especially motorway journeys I prefer to use HEV mode and save the charge, mostly because I wouldn't want a cold engine firing up at motorway speeds. I generally pop it into EV mode and use the charge for the last 20 miles or so of a round trip in each direction.

Hope this helps

I do pretty much the same. 

[P_J]

Max charge I can fit into my PHEV is 14.1kW from empty (which shows as 30% in app, and required to run in HV mode). 
So takes about 5.5 hours at home to get to 100%, though it then typically trickle charges for about an hour (still showing 100% and adding very little) until the car stops the in-flow and reports Charging Complete via app. 

As above, the best (cheapest, quietest, environmentally friendly) way to use is in EV mode until Battery depleted, unless you'll be a couple miles from home when it runs out, or you're doing a motorway journey and best to keep the charge for slower/congested travelling once at destination. To do this, its a press of the button to switch to HV, then again to go back to EV when close to destination. 
If you want max horsepower/performance so you can floor it at the lights, you'll want the engine running (and preferably warmed) so switch to HV in advance. Pedal to the floor gets you ICE and motors, and a surprisingly quick lurch of speed (but sometimes a brief wheel spin too). 
Plenty of speed in just EV though, so really no need. 

[NASY]

On the notion of which mode to use for me it's a question of when is best to have the silky smooth quiet running of EV and when is HEV most suited. So lots of uphill and down dale suits EV for a relaxed drive whereas HEV is relaxed when cruising even at high speed once done with the acceleration to get there. So it's a matter of what you really feel most good about or just let the machine sort your life out and it will deliver, Instant coffee or espresso? Vinyl or streaming?

[Nick72]

Full charge from empty takes about 2hr40m on average on my 7.4kW wall box, noting the limiting factor is the onboard charging system which is limited to 6.6kW from memory.

0 to Full Charge costumes about 14.1 to 14.8kWhrs of energy (which includes losses of course so that's not the total energy going into the Battery as stored charge. Mostly but not entirely.).

Variations are Temperature related I imagine. But generally in the 2hr30m to 2hr50m region.