Rear disc too deep & touches shoe backing plate - help!

[koala58]

My dear old workhorse Avensis (2007 T25 1.8 hatch) needed new rear discs/pads/shoes.

I bought the various parts (from ebay) and started work on the near side. It all went smoothly but there was a bit of a rubbing noise when re-assembled. Thought it was just the new pads bedding in and took it for a run around the block. Noise got louder - not good!

When I took it apart again I found that the back of the new disc had been contacting the brake shoe backing plate - it seems that the new disc was fractionally too deep.

I put the old disc back on - no probems, no noises.

I assumed that I'd just bought poorly machined discs (Ridex branded) and ordered some more from a different brand (Apec Blue branded). I fitted them and they did the same.

On the assumption it was just cheap/poor quality brands, I paid a bit more for for some Bosch discs. I've just tried these and again they rub on the backing plate!

I find it difficult to believe that none of the 3 different brands of disc fit the car properly. I can't seen any way that the disc fitting can be affecting it, yet only the old disc works!

Has anyone else experienced these problems?

[flash22]

the cheaper end of the market can be hit and miss can you post the part numbers you had/have

https://brakebook.com/bb/mintex/en_GB/MDC1696C_82/datasheet.xhtml

oem part number is 42431-05030 replaced by 42431-05060

[koala58]

1 hour ago, flash22 said:

the cheaper end of the market can be hit and miss can you post the part numbers you had/have

https://brakebook.com/bb/mintex/en_GB/MDC1696C_82/datasheet.xhtml

oem part number is 42431-05030 replaced by 42431-05060

Hi Bob

The 3 brands and part numbers are:

- RIDEX 82B0116

- APEC BLUE SDK6160

- Bosch BD1108

Many thanks

T

 

 

[2009joe]

5 hours ago, koala58 said:

My dear old workhorse Avensis (2007 T25 1.8 hatch) needed new rear discs/pads/shoes.

I bought the various parts (from ebay) and started work on the near side. It all went smoothly but there was a bit of a rubbing noise when re-assembled. Thought it was just the new pads bedding in and took it for a run around the block. Noise got louder - not good!

When I took it apart again I found that the back of the new disc had been contacting the brake shoe backing plate - it seems that the new disc was fractionally too deep.

I put the old disc back on - no probems, no noises.

I assumed that I'd just bought poorly machined discs (Ridex branded) and ordered some more from a different brand (Apec Blue branded). I fitted them and they did the same.

On the assumption it was just cheap/poor quality brands, I paid a bit more for for some Bosch discs. I've just tried these and again they rub on the backing plate!

I find it difficult to believe that none of the 3 different brands of disc fit the car properly. I can't seen any way that the disc fitting can be affecting it, yet only the old disc works!

Has anyone else experienced these problems?

dude there is a guy on eBay when comes to brake pads and discs i always now put in genuine toyota ones as i had a bad enough time with my last car and lets just say those cheap motorfactor pads and discs nothing but pure junk 

[flash22]

Bosch disks will be made by someone else, but they do cross

 

I would check to see if the shoes are the same size as the original or put the drums on with no shoes in place and spin the drum/disc

 

"genuine parts" on eBay is very hit-and-miss, there are a few sellers selling some not quite genuine parts

never had an issue with TDM friction discs and pads (Pagid and Mintex to name 2)

[Konrad C]

If the backing plate is rubbing the new disc, I would see where and if possible try and make some clearance. Three brands cannot be that far wrong with dimensions! I would see if the backing plate mating face to the hub has not been 'jacked' by rust or corrosion. Also to make the clearance, you may need to gently bend plate.  

I changed the disc and pads front and rear, on my brothers 2019 Kia Proceed. I had to check one rear, because it was rubbing and the brake was uneven. Rear disc removed and wire brush on drill to clean the hub mating face, re-align the new shims on the carrier and brake cleaner on the disc sorted the problem. It was the first one I started and was learning a new car and EPB. 
I have worked on Avensis rear brakes Mk1 with drums, and my current Avensis with rear discs and EPB. I have dismantle a MK1 facelift with rear disc and drum combo, when I needed to replace a wheel bearing hub on my own Avensis within an hour before an MOT!

[avetoy]

I used to have Avensis T25 1,6 vvti (2004) with which I drove more than 350t km and as far as I remember change the discs and shoes twice. I used the cheapest brand and never any fitting problem.

I think at least the 2.2 diesel model has a different disc and maybe 2,4 petrol too?

 

[Maaks]

T25 1,8 rear discs are 56mm high (as indicated in @flash22 post)

T22 discs are deeper, 60,8mm

[TonyHSD]

Brake discs and pads unless made in Pakistan or Indian back yards will have exact dimensions as original ones. 
Sometimes an aftermarket brake components can be as good as oem or even better at a fraction of the price. The brands used in op case aren’t bad , the problem might be from different parts as mentioned already or how they been installed. Re check your work. 

[flash22]

51 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Brake discs and pads unless made in Pakistan or Indian back yards will have exact dimensions as original ones. 
Sometimes an aftermarket brake components can be as good as oem or even better at a fraction of the price. The brands used in op case aren’t bad , the problem might be from different parts as mentioned already or how they been installed. Re check your work. 

that was my thinking, the shoes are in the wrong position, the shoes hit the drum and not the back plate or the springs are in the wrong position

edit.

 

Edit 2. just a thought - did you back off the cable at the handbrake ??

[koala58]

20 hours ago, 2009joe said:

dude there is a guy on ebay when comes to brake pads and discs i always now put in genuine toyota ones as i had a bad enough time with my last car and lets just say those cheap motorfactor pads and discs nothing but pure junk 

 

19 hours ago, flash22 said:

Bosch disks will be made by someone else, but they do cross

 

I would check to see if the shoes are the same size as the original or put the drums on with no shoes in place and spin the drum/disc

 

"genuine parts" on eBay is very hit-and-miss, there are a few sellers selling some not quite genuine parts

never had an issue with TDM friction discs and pads (Pagid and Mintex to name 2)

Thanks for the replies here guys - I take the point and I may try to get some genuine Toyota discs as a last resort.

[koala58]

7 hours ago, Konrad C said:

If the backing plate is rubbing the new disc, I would see where and if possible try and make some clearance. Three brands cannot be that far wrong with dimensions! I would see if the backing plate mating face to the hub has not been 'jacked' by rust or corrosion. Also to make the clearance, you may need to gently bend plate.  

I changed the disc and pads front and rear, on my brothers 2019 Kia Proceed. I had to check one rear, because it was rubbing and the brake was uneven. Rear disc removed and wire brush on drill to clean the hub mating face, re-align the new shims on the carrier and brake cleaner on the disc sorted the problem. It was the first one I started and was learning a new car and EPB. 
I have worked on Avensis rear brakes Mk1 with drums, and my current Avensis with rear discs and EPB. I have dismantle a MK1 facelift with rear disc and drum combo, when I needed to replace a wheel bearing hub on my own Avensis within an hour before an MOT!

Many thanks for your reply Konrad - I appreciate your experience in this.

I've had a look at the backing plate and it's actually in good condition (other than the scraping of the ill-fitting disc!) - there's a bit of dirt but no significant rust. I would try bending the plate as you suggest but the position of contact is very close to the place where the shoes rub/rest/contact and I don't want to bend it and upset the alignment of the shoes.

I've also just tried the same thing on the other (off) side and I find exactly the same problem - the aftermarket discs foul the backing plate. I don't believe it's a rust/corrosion issue.

[koala58]

6 hours ago, avetoy said:

I used to have Avensis T25 1,6 vvti (2004) with which I drove more than 350t km and as far as I remember change the discs and shoes twice. I used the cheapest brand and never any fitting problem.

I think at least the 2.2 diesel model has a different disc and maybe 2,4 petrol too?

 

Thanks for your reply. I don't suppose you remember what brand of discs you purchased by any chance?

[koala58]

2 hours ago, Maaks said:

T25 1,8 rear discs are 56mm high (as indicated in @flash22 post)

T22 discs are deeper, 60,8mm

Thanks for your reply Margo. All the 3 brands of discs I have used are a nominal 56mm depth and are alledgedly designed for my car (ie 1.8 T25 hatch).

[koala58]

1 hour ago, TonyHSD said:

Brake discs and pads unless made in Pakistan or Indian back yards will have exact dimensions as original ones. 
Sometimes an aftermarket brake components can be as good as oem or even better at a fraction of the price. The brands used in op case aren’t bad , the problem might be from different parts as mentioned already or how they been installed. Re check your work. 

Thanks for your reply Tony. Like you I believe it's possible to purchase acceptable quality components for reasonable prices, so long as you do it carefully.

I think the problem I'm experiencing is that the aftermarket discs are fractionally too deep - probably just a millimetre or so.

For example the first disc I tried (Ridex branded) was rubbing very hard on the backplate whereas the Bosch just makes slight (but still audible!) contact with the backplate.

I'm no experinced mechanic but I'm pretty confident it's fitted correctly - frankly it's not that complex a job.

[koala58]

1 hour ago, flash22 said:

that was my thinking, the shoes are in the wrong position, the shoes hit the drum and not the back plate or the springs are in the wrong position

edit.

 

Edit 2. just a thought - did you back off the cable at the handbrake ??

Thanks again Bob for your feedback.

I haven't actually removed or changed the shoes/springs nor have I backed off the cable. I  have new shoes & springs ready to fit but decided that I wouldn't bother doing them until I could get some new discs fitted at the same time.

 

[koala58]

As I mentioned above I have now checked both near and off side and they both have the same issues with the aftermarket discs. In both cases the backing plates appear undamaged and intact, yet all 3 disc brands contact the plate. The amount of contact varies depending on brand - Ridex is worse, Bosch not so bad - but none work properly. Yet on both sides, when I put back on the original discs, there's no contact at all.

At the moment I'm inclined to go and purchase genuine Toyota branded discs and see if they are any better.

If that doesn't work I've run out of options 😕

I'll report back on here with my results.

[flash22]

The only thing is to measure up the discs including the top hat thickness (hub face mounting) - is it the backing plates rubbing tho as you will get witness marks very quickly

 

T25 1.8 hatch can only be a UK built car

drop me a PM with your VIN

if the backing plates are rusty clean them up with a wire wheel where the drum meets the backing plate

[TonyHSD]

Would it be possible these discs aren’t exact fit for your car specs ? 
In Auris hybrid for example the rear discs are totally different from all other Auris specs, although discs from other specs like 1.6 or 1.4 diesel fit into the hub they are so slightly different . 
You need to look on that matter too. 
 

[koala58]

14 hours ago, flash22 said:

The only thing is to measure up the discs including the top hat thickness (hub face mounting) - is it the backing plates rubbing tho as you will get witness marks very quickly

 

T25 1.8 hatch can only be a UK built car

drop me a PM with your VIN

if the backing plates are rusty clean them up with a wire wheel where the drum meets the backing plate

It's definitely the backing plates that the discs contact - there are some very distinct marks where the discs rub.

It's an SB prefix vin so a UK car.

The backing plates are fine, a bit dirty and maybe a bit of surface rust but they're seated perfectly, no distortion, damage or buckling.

Thanks

[koala58]

13 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Would it be possible these discs aren’t exact fit for your car specs ? 
In Auris hybrid for example the rear discs are totally different from all other Auris specs, although discs from other specs like 1.6 or 1.4 diesel fit into the hub they are so slightly different . 
You need to look on that matter too. 
 

I'm afraid these are (or at least should be!) the correct discs for my car.

If you check the part numbers (see above) for each of the brands, they're listed as correct fitment for my car and as a replacement for Toyota p/n 42431-05030/05060.

Visually they're the same and for all aspects of fitment they're identical - hole spacing, centre diameter, overall diameter and thickness etc. They bolt up fine, the caliper/pads fit and clear the disc correctly. All is well except for maybe 1mm-ish clearance missing around the backplate.

 

[koala58]

I have actually considered a last resort option, but I'm going to get some Toyota branded discs to try first.

Last resort is to get some 0.5mm/1mm shim stock, cut it to shape and place it between the hub and the disc, thereby moving the disc fractionally outwards, away from the backing plate.

Problem is that it also pushes the disc surface outwards slightly - I need to ensure it doesn't contact the caliper assembly. And I really don't like doing things like this, especially on the brakes.

tbh I really shouldn't have to be doing sh*t like this though. It's a mainstream saloon car, not a kit car or piece of exotica - parts should just fit out of the box!

[flash22]

is it hitting on the drum edge (step back) or the diameter

[koala58]

2 hours ago, flash22 said:

is it hitting on the drum edge (step back) or the diameter

It's hitting on the step back.

I've attached 2 pics showing the scrape marks on the backing plate and the score mark on the new disc.

Thanks

[flash22]

wire brush the backing plate and give it a tweak with a hammer and a lump of wood, its just warped with age and a bit of rust jacking, the previous discs have just self clearanced over time