5 years hard labour ?

[Cyker]

55 minutes ago, First_Toyota said:

I’m beginning to think that Sunak may have (unintentionally) played a bit of a blinder here. 14 years of Conservative Government, which certainly wasn’t brilliant, followed by this current shambles with Labour (currently approaching Truss levels of polling popularity!) likely means another 10-20 years of Conservative Government next..😂😂😂

I hope not, they are no better. I think they deliberately threw the election and mayoral vote so they wouldn't get the blame for things to come - I'm pretty sure they knew we were in trouble but didn't want to make the unpopular decisions needed to get things back on track. Politicians are nothing if not spineless cowards.

 

[First_Toyota]

21 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I hope not, they are no better. I think they deliberately threw the election and mayoral vote so they wouldn't get the blame for things to come - I'm pretty sure they knew we were in trouble but didn't want to make the unpopular decisions needed to get things back on track. Politicians are nothing if not spineless cowards.

 

Unfortunately, having been a ‘believer’ and having studied nothing but Labour and the left while at University, I’m increasingly of the opinion that even the worst Conservative Government is better than the best Labour Government…

[Cyker]

Don't you believe it... they're just as bad as each other. Two sides of the same bad coin.

Don't let either side trick you into thinking otherwise, not them nor any of the parties who fancy themselves as would-be replacements. As the saying goes, the ones who crave power are often the ones who should be kept far from it.

[Rhymes with Paris]

A rather large pachyderm in the chamber for me is the disparity between USA senators and UK MPs.

I may be completely out with my approximate figures, but does the USA have around 100 senators for around 260 million population?

And the UK have 650 MPs, plus the house of lords for around 60 million population?

Ok so both countries gubm'ts make monumental mistakes,as well as some good decisions in very difficult times.

But here in the UK do we really need so many to mess things up so often, when the USA manages with so many fewer.

Happy to be informed if I am misunderstanding the situation.

[Eddie G]

5 hours ago, Cyker said:

Don't you believe it... they're just as bad as each other. Two sides of the same bad coin.

Don't let either side trick you into thinking otherwise, not them nor any of the parties who fancy themselves as would-be replacements. As the saying goes, the ones who crave power are often the ones who should be kept far from it.

Totally Agree.

[First_Toyota]

10 hours ago, Cyker said:

Don't you believe it... they're just as bad as each other. Two sides of the same bad coin.

Don't let either side trick you into thinking otherwise, not them nor any of the parties who fancy themselves as would-be replacements. As the saying goes, the ones who crave power are often the ones who should be kept far from it.

More like a dice than a coin 😂 given how many parties there are - they’re all as bad as each other. I’m happy to throw the LibDems, Greens, SNP, Reform etc. all into the same basket!

My younger self would likely be horrified at how disillusioned I’ve become. 🤨

[Eddie G]

3 hours ago, First_Toyota said:

More like a dice than a coin 😂 given how many parties there are - they’re all as bad as each other. I’m happy to throw the LibDems, Greens, SNP, Reform etc. all into the same basket!

My younger self would likely be horrified at how disillusioned I’ve become. 🤨

At least it makes it an easy choice none-of-the-above, the only party that possibly may get my vote are the Lib Dems who's policy on upping the tax threshold on earnings before you have to pay tax was a good idea (while in coalition with the Tories) what a great choice a NOTA or the Lib Dems 😆 while i also live in a safe Labour seat area as well 😆

[Haliotis]

15 hours ago, First_Toyota said:

Unfortunately, having been a ‘believer’ and having studied nothing but Labour and the left while at University, I’m increasingly of the opinion that even the worst Conservative Government is better than the best Labour Government…

I am 89 years old and have seen a lot of changes in government. Every time a Labour government has left office the country has been left with a massive debt.  I fully expect the same to happen under the Starmer regime.   As for this last Conservative government, I think they are the worst we have had - looking back, I feel that they were more like a Labour left-wing government than a Conservative one.  My belief is that they finally killed themselves off with their own in-fighting.

[Benzowner]

What annoys me the most, we currently have a leadership contest in the Conservative party with originally 6 candidates, that is being whittled down eventually to 2 with the final result at their AGM. I am sure the Labour party did the same when electing their party leader. Why do we continually have to put up with first past the post, where this lot only received just over 20% vote of the electorate and looking back through history would need to go back many decades to find a party that received over 50%. We should have a system where the lowest drop out in the same way as the 2 parties do at present. This could be shortened by having us vote for a 1st, 2nd 3rd choice etc on the ballot paper.

[Cyker]

The system is just generally unfair, and seems designed to favour the incumbents, and they keep changing it to be increasingly so, even changing the voting area groupings and the way the voting is done - The mayoral vote used to let you have 2 votes, one for your primary and one for your secondary, but they changed it to only 1 vote and KHAAAAAN! got in with the lowest 'majority' I think I've seen since Ken.

 

 

[Haliotis]

I don’t think they will ever invent a voting procedure that satisfies everyone.  The biggest cause for twisted results comes from two main factors - (1) Too many people do not bother to vote, and (2) There are far too many small, basically irrelevant, parties who mess up the system to the disadvantage of the main three parties.

[dannyboy413]

6 hours ago, Benzowner said:

We should have a system where the lowest drop out in the same way as the 2 parties do at present. This could be shortened by having us vote for a 1st, 2nd 3rd choice etc on the ballot paper.

A bit like the Irish system.

[Bper]

35 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

I don’t think they will ever invent a voting procedure that satisfies everyone.  The biggest cause for twisted results comes from two main factors - (1) Too many people do not bother to vote, and (2) There are far too many small, basically irrelevant, parties who mess up the system to the disadvantage of the main three parties.

What three parties? There have really only been two dominating for decades, and what good have they done for the people? They've been so effective that they've driven the country into decline. If we keep voting for the same parties, we can expect the same results nothing will change.

It's time to give another party, like Reform, a chance, or find a way to ensure the government truly serves and honors the will of the people. That’s their purpose, after all.☹️

[Haliotis]

On this mornings BBC News it is reported that Starmer has admitted that no impact assessment has been carried out for the removal of the Winter Fuel Payment.

10 Downing Street points out that an impact assessment “is only required if the legislation costs more than £10 million, which it does not in this case.”   But some 10 million pensioners have had this WFP taken away, an it is expected to save £1.2bn this year alone. So what is the ‘cost of the legislation’ and ‘how is it measured’ so as to arrive at less than £10 million?

Starmer is also in the spotlight over a Labour donor paying out a huge sum for his wife’s wardrobe.  This parliamentary session has barely taken off, and already Labour ministers are facing the same kind of accusations which Rachel Reeves levelled at the Conservatives during her lengthy statement at the dispatch box.   Well, to those who voted for Labour I simply ask, “What did you expect?”

[Bper]

55 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

On this mornings BBC News it is reported that Starmer has admitted that no impact assessment has been carried out for the removal of the Winter Fuel Payment.

10 Downing Street points out that an impact assessment “is only required if the legislation costs more than £10 million, which it does not in this case.”   But some 10 million pensioners have had this WFP taken away, an it is expected to save £1.2bn this year alone. So what is the ‘cost of the legislation’ and ‘how is it measured’ so as to arrive at less than £10 million?

Starmer is also in the spotlight over a Labour donor paying out a huge sum for his wife’s wardrobe.  This parliamentary session has barely taken off, and already Labour ministers are facing the same kind of accusations which Rachel Reeves levelled at the Conservatives during her lengthy statement at the dispatch box.   Well, to those who voted for Labour I simply ask, “What did you expect?”

The removal of the winter fuel payment and the £1.2 billion in savings may be a significant amount but it mainly reflects reduced government spending rather than the full costs of implementing the policy. An impact assessment as you pointed out is only required if the direct implementation costs exceed £10 million, which the government claims isn’t the case here.

That said, the lack of an impact assessment raises concerns about the potential long term effects on pensioners and any hidden administrative costs.The controversy surrounding Keir Starmer and the Labour Party, particularly the donor’s payment for his wife’s wardrobe, adds yet another layer to the problem. It underscores how political accountability is scrutinised from various angles and does often reveal more about how politicians really view their responsibilities and attitude toward the public.As I said above It's time to give another party, like Reform, a chance, or find a way to ensure the government truly serves and honors the will of the people. That’s their purpose, after all.☹️

[Benzowner]

2 hours ago, Haliotis said:

Well, to those who voted for Labour I simply ask, “What did you expect?”

20% of the electorate and the 80% have to make do. However, according to reports many rich people are leaving the UK and with them their possible employees taxes etc.

[Haliotis]

I had considered voting for Reform.  Our Conservative MP happened to visit our door and we had quite a long and amiable discussion.  He appreciated my criticism of the then current Tory government, saying he realised they would lose the election, but that a vote for Reform would be a vote for Labour, as most of Reform’s voters would be defectors from previously voting Conservative.

During the election campaign, Labour claimed they would be fair to everyone (not just the Tory rich), but what have they done?  Repeated accusations that the Conservatives have created a £22bn black hole is, we know, quite untrue. Nearly half of it is down to Labour giving above-inflation pay awards to their union-member friends.  They said everyone would have to equally bear the price for recovery, but millions of pensioners have quickly found out that this is not true.  Labour have rapidly shown cracks in their integrity - there are very likely more shocks to come, and it isn’t too difficult to guess which sections of society are most probably going to feel the claws of Rachel Reeves.

[Corolly Poly]

1 hour ago, Haliotis said:

I had considered voting for Reform.  Our Conservative MP happened to visit our door and we had quite a long and amiable discussion.  He appreciated my criticism of the then current Tory government, saying he realised they would lose the election, but that a vote for Reform would be a vote for Labour, as most of Reform’s voters would be defectors from previously voting Conservative.

During the election campaign, Labour claimed they would be fair to everyone (not just the Tory rich), but what have they done?  Repeated accusations that the Conservatives have created a £22bn black hole is, we know, quite untrue. Nearly half of it is down to Labour giving above-inflation pay awards to their union-member friends.  They said everyone would have to equally bear the price for recovery, but millions of pensioners have quickly found out that this is not true.  Labour have rapidly shown cracks in their integrity - there are very likely more shocks to come, and it isn’t too difficult to guess which sections of society are most probably going to feel the claws of Rachel Reeves.

Interested how you know this - citing some reliable independent source would be useful.

Also, any pay awards recently given will not figure in any assessment of the current deficit and are therefore not responsible for it.

There will be more cuts. There has to be unless by some miracle economic growth takes off beyond expectations.

[Corolly Poly]

2 hours ago, Benzowner said:

20% of the electorate and the 80% have to make do. However, according to reports many rich people are leaving the UK and with them their possible employees taxes etc.

Do you have some of these reports from reliable sources that indicate wealthy people are leaving in significant enough numbers to make the slightest difference?

[Bper]

45 minutes ago, Corolly Poly said:

Do you have some of these reports from reliable sources that indicate wealthy people are leaving in significant enough numbers to make the slightest difference?

If it helps,the trend of wealthy individuals leaving the UK has been discussed in recent reports and articles from 2023.

The Henley Private Wealth Migration Report 2023 notes that the UK is among the countries experiencing a net outflow of high-net-worth individuals (those with wealth over $1 million). The report emphasises concerns over higher taxes, post-Brexit changes, and a preference for lifestyle improvements as the key reasons.

Bloomberg has published articles in 2023 highlighting how the wealth migration from the UK has continued, particularly due to economic factors such as high inflation, increased taxation, and political uncertainties post-Brexit. These articles also mention that countries like Portugal, Spain, and the UAE (especially Dubai) are attracting UK residents due to their favorable tax regimes and lifestyle benefits.

The Financial Times has published pieces in 2023 discussing the relocation of both businesses and wealthy individuals. Many of these articles highlight that wealthy UK residents are being drawn to destinations like Switzerland and Monaco, where they can benefit from more favorable tax policies and a higher quality of life.

Knight Frank's latest wealth report indicates that the UK is facing stiff competition from other global cities in attracting and retaining wealthy residents. Their 2023 findings suggest that the UK's luxury property market has seen changes that reflect this movement, with some wealthy individuals choosing to sell London properties and relocate.👍

[Haliotis]

57 minutes ago, Corolly Poly said:

Interested how you know this - citing some reliable independent source would be useful.

Also, any pay awards recently given will not figure in any assessment of the current deficit and are therefore not responsible for it.

There will be more cuts. There has to be unless by some miracle economic growth takes off beyond expectations.

Info comes from various news sources (BBC/ITV/GBNews/BBCNews via iPad/etc.

How can recent pay awards not figure in the deficit when they were awarded after Labour came into power?  Until Labour made these awards we are led to believe the deficit was about £11bn when the Conservatives left office.  

[Corolly Poly]

31 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

Info comes from various news sources (BBC/ITV/GBNews/BBCNews via iPad/etc.

How can recent pay awards not figure in the deficit when they were awarded after Labour came into power?  Until Labour made these awards we are led to believe the deficit was about £11bn when the Conservatives left office.  

Got any links to these sources?

Because £11bn was a gross under-estimate. 

[Corolly Poly]

49 minutes ago, Bper said:

If it helps,the trend of wealthy individuals leaving the UK has been discussed in recent reports and articles from 2023.

The Henley Private Wealth Migration Report 2023 notes that the UK is among the countries experiencing a net outflow of high-net-worth individuals (those with wealth over $1 million). The report emphasises concerns over higher taxes, post-Brexit changes, and a preference for lifestyle improvements as the key reasons.

Bloomberg has published articles in 2023 highlighting how the wealth migration from the UK has continued, particularly due to economic factors such as high inflation, increased taxation, and political uncertainties post-Brexit. These articles also mention that countries like Portugal, Spain, and the UAE (especially Dubai) are attracting UK residents due to their favorable tax regimes and lifestyle benefits.

The Financial Times has published pieces in 2023 discussing the relocation of both businesses and wealthy individuals. Many of these articles highlight that wealthy UK residents are being drawn to destinations like Switzerland and Monaco, where they can benefit from more favorable tax policies and a higher quality of life.

Knight Frank's latest wealth report indicates that the UK is facing stiff competition from other global cities in attracting and retaining wealthy residents. Their 2023 findings suggest that the UK's luxury property market has seen changes that reflect this movement, with some wealthy individuals choosing to sell London properties and relocate.👍

small number and pre-election. The implication from the post I responded to was that the election of a Labour govt is responsible for an exodus.

[Primus1]

Funny isn’t it, people are outraged about pay rises for public workers and yet seem to have forgotten the billions paid out during the pandemic to the last governments cronies for the illegal vip( priority) lane, how starmer is going to kill hundreds of pensioners this winter, forgetting that boris has been there again, during the pandemic, we seem to have short memories..

[Eddie G]

5 hours ago, Primus1 said:

Funny isn’t it, people are outraged about pay rises for public workers and yet seem to have forgotten the billions paid out during the pandemic to the last governments cronies for the illegal vip( priority) lane, how starmer is going to kill hundreds of pensioners this winter, forgetting that boris has been there again, during the pandemic, we seem to have short memories..

Oh we remember just didn't expect the nasty party moving into number 10 after just voting the last nasty party out!