5 years hard labour ?

[Primus1]

Not sure how they are the nasty party, yet, they’ve only been in a few weeks, maybe after 14 years they might get that title 

[Haliotis]

3 hours ago, Primus1 said:

Not sure how they are the nasty party, yet, they’ve only been in a few weeks, maybe after 14 years they might get that title 

In the short time they have been in office there have already been a few gaffes that indicate they may soon earn the title.

[Bper]

20 hours ago, Haliotis said:

I had considered voting for Reform.  Our Conservative MP happened to visit our door and we had quite a long and amiable discussion.  He appreciated my criticism of the then current Tory government, saying he realised they would lose the election, but that a vote for Reform would be a vote for Labour, as most of Reform’s voters would be defectors from previously voting Conservative.

During the election campaign, Labour claimed they would be fair to everyone (not just the Tory rich), but what have they done?  Repeated accusations that the Conservatives have created a £22bn black hole is, we know, quite untrue. Nearly half of it is down to Labour giving above-inflation pay awards to their union-member friends.  They said everyone would have to equally bear the price for recovery, but millions of pensioners have quickly found out that this is not true.  Labour have rapidly shown cracks in their integrity - there are very likely more shocks to come, and it isn’t too difficult to guess which sections of society are most probably going to feel the claws of Rachel Reeves.

Hi Albert,the issue of the £22 billion black hole has been raised blaming Labour for it, especially because of recent public sector pay rises. But that’s not really the case.

Since 2010, the Conservatives have been running things, handling the economy through events like the pandemic and Brexit. Most of the financial strain that led to this black hole actually happened on their watch. COVID-19 and the economic crisis during the pandemic,led the government to borrow huge amounts of money to support the economy. A lot of that debt came from decisions made under Boris Johnson’s government. Then there was Liz Truss's mini-budget in September 2022, which included tax cuts that weren’t funded. This caused market chaos and pushed up borrowing costs, adding significantly to the financial gap.

Some do point to Labour’s response to the 2008 financial crisis, which did increase public debt. Even though that crisis was global, the Conservatives argue that Labour’s high spending back then justified the austerity measures they introduced. But it's worth remembering that Labour hasn’t been in power since 2010 and hasn’t directly influenced any recent fiscal policy. They have criticised how the Conservatives have managed things, though, and have put forward their own alternatives.So this £22 billion gap is mainly due to recent Conservative policies, like how they handled the pandemic and the 2022 mini-budget. While some still blame Labour for their spending before 2010, the current shortfall mostly built up over the last decade of Conservative governance.

That said, I do think Labour played a role, since they supported the government's financial decisions during the pandemic, despite the mismanagement.👍

 

[Primus1]

If the conservatives were in power back in 2008 they would have let the banks go under, you also have to remember that rishi sunak worked as a hedge fund manager and effectively bet against the uk, making him, and others, millions..

[FROSTYBALLS]

Think whoever was in power during the pandemic period - which isn't over as certain strains are continuing to infect people - huge amounts of borrowing would still have been needed.

[Primus1]

2 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Think whoever was in power during the pandemic period - which isn't over as certain strains are continuing to infect people - huge amounts of borrowing would still have been needed.

Of course, but maybe most of it wouldn’t have gone to their chums…

[FROSTYBALLS]

36 minutes ago, Primus1 said:

Of course, but maybe most of it wouldn’t have gone to their chums…

You want to bet ? 

Graft is no different whoever is in power.

[Cyker]

It's unlikely, not many of the good and honest left there and those that are get slowly corrupted by the rest. The honest ones tend to drop out as they take the fall, while the dishonest ones stay on and pass the blame onto the honest ones to avoid any comeuppance. Think about all the ones that stepped down for breaching quarantine rules, showing they at least had some semblance of morals or a conscience, while people like Cummings not only breached those rules flagrantly, but to this day still does not acknowledge that he did anything wrong, and still hasn't had any punishment, mainly because he was protected by Boris at the time, who he ironically stabbed in the back later when it suited him more to do so, to make sure Boris took the bulk of the blame when he was mostly just a glove-puppet for Cummings and Gove.

Hence why my general preferred solution is to load them all onto a container ship and fire it into the sun.  

 

[Eddie G]

20 hours ago, Primus1 said:

Not sure how they are the nasty party, yet, they’ve only been in a few weeks, maybe after 14 years they might get that title 

Labour will probably only get 5 years in power but the nasty level is already in full swing and that's before the Oct budget, while Starmer and his wife parade around in £19,000 worth of gifted fashion glasses and clothing while cutting the winter fuel allowance for pensioners, which by Labour's own research! in 2017 could lead up to an additional 4000 deaths over winter.

[First_Toyota]

On 9/17/2024 at 6:56 AM, Primus1 said:

Not sure how they are the nasty party, yet, they’ve only been in a few weeks, maybe after 14 years they might get that title 

Of course you are quite correct - it is far too early to judge. I’m firmly in the camp that the country needed a change in Government. The Conservatives had run out of steam, and were mired in scandal and internal division. The Truss disaster was actually the final nail in a coffin that Sunak couldn’t escape from.

I might be on my own here, but I don’t think people really voted for change. I think they voted for HOPE. I also think this is why so many are so disappointed - and I use that word in the spirit of a Headmaster admonishing a pupil. 

The comparisons with the 2019 election are well noted. The electorate is far more willing to ‘lend’ votes these days. That means there’s less ‘loyalty’ and thus less patience. James O’Brien has used the phrase ‘buyer’s remorse’ and it’s certainly a factor here as it was with the Johnson Government. Expectation and hope are quickly extinguished by poorly thought through policies.

After everything Starmer said about ‘grown up’ politics, public service, cronyism etc. I’m surprised he’s made so many basic errors so quickly. As Owen Jones has said (and I fully accept he’s no fan of Starmer!) if Boris Johnson had his clothes paid for by a wealthy doner there would have been outrage from Labour - rightly. Witness the fuss about the Downing Street flat refurbishment being paid for, and consider the situation isn’t so very different. The ‘clothes scandal’ is an own goal, and shows either extreme naivety after so many years out of office, or it shows extreme arrogance. I don’t know which. Ministers weakly defending the position and suggesting the Prime Minister and partner should have public funding for clothing has compounded the error. 

The cronyism allegations have hit hard, again because of public expectations and Starmer’s own statements. As Victoria Derbyshire noted in her interview with the CSOT, Labours position was essentially to say appointing officials to Civil Service jobs would have been unacceptable if done by the Conservatives but is fine when we do it…that’s certainly how it looks to all but the most fervent disciples.

Disappointed is how I would sum the first three months up. Regardless of whether we believe the £22bn ‘black hole’ or not, for the very first new policy to be an attack on pensioners was another classic new Government own goal. Civil Servants would have likely presented the Chancellor with some immediate options, and frankly she didn’t choose wisely…the general expectation would have been a raid on large corporations, or the very wealthy. In the context of £19k being donated to a wealthy family to buy clothes, removing £300 from some pensioners receiving only £11,500pa was baffling for me. The subsequent storm indicates probably not just me, either. PR people would probably speak about the ‘optics’ and they’re not positive.

Finally I’ll leave you all with this observation. Disappointment - and that is a good word - is now being articulated even by some Labour supporters. That’s a real problem for Starmer and his Government. We should ALL wish them well, as if they succeed then most should benefit, but the start has been rocky and they risk tarnishing everything they may plan to do by starting so poorly. A caller to James O’Brien summed it up better than I can, and even James is being rightly critical (while reminding us of the previous Government context). Trouble is, it’s not about the past, it’s about the future. Labour need to remember that.

 

 

[Eddie G]

1 hour ago, First_Toyota said:

Of course you are quite correct - it is far too early to judge. I’m firmly in the camp that the country needed a change in Government. The Conservatives had run out of steam, and were mired in scandal and internal division. The Truss disaster was actually the final nail in a coffin that Sunak couldn’t escape from.

I might be on my own here, but I don’t think people really voted for change. I think they voted for HOPE. I also think this is why so many are so disappointed - and I use that word in the spirit of a Headmaster admonishing a pupil. 

The comparisons with the 2019 election are well noted. The electorate is far more willing to ‘lend’ votes these days. That means there’s less ‘loyalty’ and thus less patience. James O’Brien has used the phrase ‘buyer’s remorse’ and it’s certainly a factor here as it was with the Johnson Government. Expectation and hope are quickly extinguished by poorly thought through policies.

After everything Starmer said about ‘grown up’ politics, public service, cronyism etc. I’m surprised he’s made so many basic errors so quickly. As Owen Jones has said (and I fully accept he’s no fan of Starmer!) if Boris Johnson had his clothes paid for by a wealthy doner there would have been outrage from Labour - rightly. Witness the fuss about the Downing Street flat refurbishment being paid for, and consider the situation isn’t so very different. The ‘clothes scandal’ is an own goal, and shows either extreme naivety after so many years out of office, or it shows extreme arrogance. I don’t know which. Ministers weakly defending the position and suggesting the Prime Minister and partner should have public funding for clothing has compounded the error. 

The cronyism allegations have hit hard, again because of public expectations and Starmer’s own statements. As Victoria Derbyshire noted in her interview with the CSOT, Labours position was essentially to say appointing officials to Civil Service jobs would have been unacceptable if done by the Conservatives but is fine when we do it…that’s certainly how it looks to all but the most fervent disciples.

Disappointed is how I would sum the first three months up. Regardless of whether we believe the £22bn ‘black hole’ or not, for the very first new policy to be an attack on pensioners was another classic new Government own goal. Civil Servants would have likely presented the Chancellor with some immediate options, and frankly she didn’t choose wisely…the general expectation would have been a raid on large corporations, or the very wealthy. In the context of £19k being donated to a wealthy family to buy clothes, removing £300 from some pensioners receiving only £11,500pa was baffling for me. The subsequent storm indicates probably not just me, either. PR people would probably speak about the ‘optics’ and they’re not positive.

Finally I’ll leave you all with this observation. Disappointment - and that is a good word - is now being articulated even by some Labour supporters. That’s a real problem for Starmer and his Government. We should ALL wish them well, as if they succeed then most should benefit, but the start has been rocky and they risk tarnishing everything they may plan to do by starting so poorly. A caller to James O’Brien summed it up better than I can, and even James is being rightly critical (while reminding us of the previous Government context). Trouble is, it’s not about the past, it’s about the future. Labour need to remember that.

 

 

Good points but like with everything in life am left with "Start as you mean to go on" applied to Labour then it's not good and we have at least another 5 years of it...........

[Haliotis]

2 hours ago, Eddie G said:

Good points but like with everything in life am left with "Start as you mean to go on" applied to Labour then it's not good and we have at least another 5 years of it...........

“……at least another 5 years of it.”  Isn’t 5 years more than enough, if Labour carry on as they have started?  Reeves’s big speech at the dispatch box, “if we can’t afford it, we won’t do it”, may have led many people into thinking that “we are all in this together”.  But I think this was a deliberate con - it is already becoming clear that the PM (and probably his ministers) see their high office status as a privileged protection from the threatened hardships that the general public are going to face.

And this hardship does not end at government level.  Many local authority councils are financially in tatters.  This has developed partly by their own careless use of taxpayers council tax, and partly by central government applying grants based on the political attitude of any particular council.  All a recipe for the financial disasters being reported by local councils.  These authorities are already issuing warnings of yet-to-be-determined increases in council tax.

Considering that political parties all have their insular attitude towards the general public, I don’t believe that there is any party capable of getting the UK out of the mess we are now in.  Any governing party will see their ministers living well, whilst the population weathers - with many succumbing to - the icy storm. 

[Eddie G]

1 hour ago, Haliotis said:

“……at least another 5 years of it.”  Isn’t 5 years more than enough, if Labour carry on as they have started?  Reeves’s big speech at the dispatch box, “if we can’t afford it, we won’t do it”, may have led many people into thinking that “we are all in this together”.  But I think this was a deliberate con - it is already becoming clear that the PM (and probably his ministers) see their high office status as a privileged protection from the threatened hardships that the general public are going to face.

And this hardship does not end at government level.  Many local authority councils are financially in tatters.  This has developed partly by their own careless use of taxpayers council tax, and partly by central government applying grants based on the political attitude of any particular council.  All a recipe for the financial disasters being reported by local councils.  These authorities are already issuing warnings of yet-to-be-determined increases in council tax.

Considering that political parties all have their insular attitude towards the general public, I don’t believe that there is any party capable of getting the UK out of the mess we are now in.  Any governing party will see their ministers living well, whilst the population weathers - with many succumbing to - the icy storm. 

I can see the single person council tax rebate of 25% going plus also a council tax increase and also a 10p increase of fuel duty incoming at the Oct budget. The likes of other parties such as Farage and Reform UK would be as bad once in power which leaves the Lib Dems! what a choice 😆 one thinks it is high time to give up bothering with any of the political parties 👍

[Haliotis]

1 hour ago, Eddie G said:

I can see the single person council tax rebate of 25% going plus also a council tax increase and also a 10p increase of fuel duty incoming at the Oct budget. The likes of other parties such as Farage and Reform UK would be as bad once in power which leaves the Lib Dems! what a choice 😆 one thinks it is high time to give up bothering with any of the political parties 👍

Regrettably, this ‘guess’ is probably very close to what we should expect.  Worryingly, the punishment could be tougher.  Reeves is a woman on a mission, and she is obviously hard faced when it comes to considering any effects on the genuine poor.  Under the Conservatives, there has been a 5% cap on council tax annual increases, but can Labour be trusted not abuse this cap?

Your observation about not bothering with any of the political parties is understandable.  Since we have no other choice but to be stuck with one of them, perhaps the first clean up could be removal of party whips and. Allow MPs to vote without pressure on the issues that they promised their constituents when canvassing for their votes.  Also, the voting lobbies should be scrapped and, instead, each MP issued with a common voting paper on which the MP would  place his/her cross in the relevant box.  Being anonymous, an MPs could then vote with their moral convictions and not be bullied or threatened with a block in their career.

In elections, did you know that how you vote is traceable?  The ballot paper you are given has a serial number on the back.  This number is then written alongside your name on the voting record sheet which is endorsed to show that you have voted.  

[Eddie G]

42 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

Regrettably, this ‘guess’ is probably very close to what we should expect.  Worryingly, the punishment could be tougher.  Reeves is a woman on a mission, and she is obviously hard faced when it comes to considering any effects on the genuine poor.  Under the Conservatives, there has been a 5% cap on council tax annual increases, but can Labour be trusted not abuse this cap?

Your observation about not bothering with any of the political parties is understandable.  Since we have no other choice but to be stuck with one of them, perhaps the first clean up could be removal of party whips and. Allow MPs to vote without pressure on the issues that they promised their constituents when canvassing for their votes.  Also, the voting lobbies should be scrapped and, instead, each MP issued with a common voting paper on which the MP would  place his/her cross in the relevant box.  Being anonymous, an MPs could then vote with their moral convictions and not be bullied or threatened with a block in their career.

In elections, did you know that how you vote is traceable?  The ballot paper you are given has a serial number on the back.  This number is then written alongside your name on the voting record sheet which is endorsed to show that you have voted.  

Good points, agree with you 👍 did not know that about the voting sheets? well they won't have to bother in future with mine 😆 one shall miss the horse manure at PM's questions, interviews and them ever so truthfully  party polital broadcasts.......

[Haliotis]

17 minutes ago, Eddie G said:

Good points, agree with you 👍 did not know that about the voting sheets? well they won't have to bother in future with mine 😆 one shall miss the horse manure at PM's questions, interviews and them ever so truthfully  party polital broadcasts.......

Once, going in to vote, we met up with a couple of neighbours and I pointed out that a serial number made the vote traceable. When we had collected our voting papers I said, “Let’s swap them around”, which we did.  The presiding officer was visibly furious, but he could do nothing about it, and we had a good laugh as we exited the polling station.

[Eddie G]

53 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

Once, going in to vote, we met up with a couple of neighbours and I pointed out that a serial number made the vote traceable. When we had collected our voting papers I said, “Let’s swap them around”, which we did.  The presiding officer was visibly furious, but he could do nothing about it, and we had a good laugh as we exited the polling station.

😂👍 

[Bper]

I've been reading the comments about both Labour and the Conservatives, and it seems like there's little appetite for giving the Reform Party a real shot at governing. But I genuinely think Nigel Farage and the Reform Party do deserve serious consideration.

Say what you will about Farage, but he’s always been clear and consistent about where he stands whether it's on Brexit, immigration, or national sovereignty. His direct and decisive approach might be exactly what we need to face the challenges the UK is dealing with right now.

What I find compelling about the Reform Party is that they're not just talking about minor changes. They’re pushing for real reforms to tackle inefficiencies in our political system. If you’re as frustrated as I am with how things are being handled by the current parties, this could be a much needed change of pace.Farage being an outsider could actually be a huge plus. A lot of us are tired of career politicians who seem out of touch with everyday concerns. Farage and the Reform Party offer a different perspective one that isn't tied down to the usual political baggage.

If you’re someone who supported Brexit and believes in keeping national control, then his dedication to those principles is hard to ignore. And let's not forget the Reform Party’s focus on accountability and transparency two things we could use more of in our politics.

I'm really curious to hear from others on this. Why shouldn’t we consider a party like Reform? Why are we so reluctant to try something different, especially when Labour and the Conservatives have led us to where we are now? Don't we owe it to ourselves to at least explore the possibility that another party could do a better job?

And if you think they wouldn't do better, I'd like to hear why. 

[Eddie G]

1 hour ago, Bper said:

I've been reading the comments about both Labour and the Conservatives, and it seems like there's little appetite for giving the Reform Party a real shot at governing. But I genuinely think Nigel Farage and the Reform Party do deserve serious consideration.

Say what you will about Farage, but he’s always been clear and consistent about where he stands whether it's on Brexit, immigration, or national sovereignty. His direct and decisive approach might be exactly what we need to face the challenges the UK is dealing with right now.

What I find compelling about the Reform Party is that they're not just talking about minor changes. They’re pushing for real reforms to tackle inefficiencies in our political system. If you’re as frustrated as I am with how things are being handled by the current parties, this could be a much needed change of pace.Farage being an outsider could actually be a huge plus. A lot of us are tired of career politicians who seem out of touch with everyday concerns. Farage and the Reform Party offer a different perspective one that isn't tied down to the usual political baggage.

If you’re someone who supported Brexit and believes in keeping national control, then his dedication to those principles is hard to ignore. And let's not forget the Reform Party’s focus on accountability and transparency two things we could use more of in our politics.

I'm really curious to hear from others on this. Why shouldn’t we consider a party like Reform? Why are we so reluctant to try something different, especially when Labour and the Conservatives have led us to where we are now? Don't we owe it to ourselves to at least explore the possibility that another party could do a better job?

And if you think they wouldn't do better, I'd like to hear why. 

I still don't trust him with the thought of him being in number 10, once in the door and all that, mind you having Starmer in at the moment sure hasn't helped with that 😆 just look at the way he is going on now.

[Haliotis]

My wife and I were both seriously considering the Reform party and, as others have said on here, we were fed up with the same old rhetoric and failures that we have tolerated for years.  I have to admit that, by listening to other views, we chickened out and went with our normal Conservative instincts.   Already we are regretting our decision - not that our vote alone would change anything - but we all really needed to be bold and go for Reform.  Seeing how bad the two main parties are, would they have been any worse, and have we missed the chance of real change for the better?

The UK is slowly haemorrhaging to death with chaotic, weak and discriminative policies.  The longer this course is allowed to continue, the less able any administration will be to turn things around.  We are prevaricating at our peril.

[Cyker]

Reform is basically UKIP under a different name, and given how quickly they disappeared after all the benefits they promised if we voted to leave the EU failed to materialise, I would expect no different from them in their new guise.

They are also a populist party, which means they will say whatever they think you want to hear to vote them in and prey on peoples' fears and insecurities with honeyed words and big smiles. I trust them even less to honour their word than I do Labour or Conservatives, and that's saying something - Most of the people in their party are practically the scum of the earth.

[dannyboy413]

16 hours ago, Eddie G said:

while cutting the winter fuel allowance for pensioners, which by Labour's own research! in 2017 could lead up to an additional 4000 deaths over winter.

Well, they will be able to say that they have cut the NHS waiting lists a bit! 

[Eddie G]

15 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Reform is basically UKIP under a different name, and given how quickly they disappeared after all the benefits they promised if we voted to leave the EU failed to materialise, I would expect no different from them in their new guise.

They are also a populist party, which means they will say whatever they think you want to hear to vote them in and prey on peoples' fears and insecurities with honeyed words and big smiles. I trust them even less to honour their word than I do Labour or Conservatives, and that's saying something - Most of the people in their party are practically the scum of the earth.

Same here  i don't trust them but on the other hand look at the Tories over the last 14 years and look at the way Labour are going on 🤷 all as bad as each other.

[Cyker]

Aye. That's why firing them all into the sun is such an appealing plan to me and makes absolute sense!   

 

[Haliotis]

35 minutes ago, dannyboy413 said:

Well, they will be able to say that they have cut the NHS waiting lists a bit! 

Shhh!  Don’t give them any ideas - they might see that as a good suggestion!!!