"Money Down the Drain"

[Bper]

With the recent announcement that water bills are going up by an average of £19 a year for households, how can this be justified? Thames Water for one is £15.2 billion in debt and had initially asked the regulators for a 44% increase in bills.Thames Water is handing its new boss an annual salary worth £850,000, on top of £102,000 in yearly pension payments and a £15,000 car allowance. He is also eligible for an annual bonus worth up to 156% of his salary, or £1.3 million, which could swell his total pay to £2.3 million. 

 

 

 

[AndyN01]

Perverse and bonkers isn't it?

For me it's either a private company/business or it isn't.

If it's private then it can (and should) go bust with "Investors" losing everything and without taxpayer money to keep the gravy train rolling along

Certain things shouldn't be a business, they should be a service which, for me is a completely different thing. It's something which is an organisation that is part of the basic infrastructure of the Country. That doesn't, however, mean that it's a free for all cash cow.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Also Ofwat have extended it's investigation into sewage spills to all water companies: Sewage spill investigation extended to all water firms - BBC News

[Bper]

It's interesting to see that investigations into sewage dumping in rivers and waterways make the news, yet we don't seem to see the same level of activism targeting water companies as we do with groups like "Just Stop Oil." I wonder why this is?.

[Mjolinor]

1 minute ago, Bper said:

It's interesting to see that investigations into sewage dumping in rivers and waterways make the news, yet we don't seem to see the same level of activism targeting water companies as we do with groups like "Just Stop Oil." I wonder why this is?.

Idiots we don't need as opposed to idiots we do need?

[ToyotaFanDriver]

Corporate crime laws should be introduced.

Look at Boeing.... Where the CEO/Board/Execs cut corners to get more pay/bonus/dividends - this has resulted in failures/crashes/deaths the result should = Jail for the people running the company (+ crippling fines for the company)

Water companies should be treated the same (as should energy!). The debt = no pay/bonus for the top people and pay claw backs. The idea that they've been paying out dividends whilst loading up on debt is disgusting knowing they'll just increase bills.

 

Nothing wrong with competition and capitalism but where it starts to eat it self there must be consequences.

[Bper]

17 minutes ago, ToyotaFanDriver said:

Corporate crime laws should be introduced.

Look at Boeing.... Where the CEO/Board/Execs cut corners to get more pay/bonus/dividends - this has resulted in failures/crashes/deaths the result should = Jail for the people running the company (+ crippling fines for the company)

Water companies should be treated the same (as should energy!). The debt = no pay/bonus for the top people and pay claw backs. The idea that they've been paying out dividends whilst loading up on debt is disgusting knowing they'll just increase bills.

 

Nothing wrong with competition and capitalism but where it starts to eat it self there must be consequences.

If the tables were turned and a member of the public dumped sewage into a river, they would likely face arrest, heavy fines, or jail time. The difference often comes down to money and power, which can shield corporations from the same level of accountability. Nothing is inherently wrong with competition and capitalism, but when these systems start to become self-destructive, there must be consequences.

[AndyN01]

Decades ago I worked for a water company. To cut a long story short "we" ended up criminally prosecuting a business for dumping untreated chemical waste into the sewers. "We" knew that this company did it all the time and had to go to quite "technical" lengths to get the evidence including remote sampling. Anyone who's been involved in this sort of work knows that it's not done lightly as it's an incredibly time consuming and costly thing to do.

They were found guilty. The "fine" wouldn't have even covered the cost of buying the "neutralising" chemicals needed and the "costs" awarded just about covered the analysis fees but didn't touch the officer time/legal team/court docs prep etc. etc.

Until the consequences are sufficiently "painful" make the actions not worth it then where's the deterrent?

[ToyotaFanDriver]

5 minutes ago, AndyN01 said:

Decades ago I worked for a water company. To cut a long story short "we" ended up criminally prosecuting a business for dumping untreated chemical waste into the sewers. "We" knew that this company did it all the time and had to go to quite "technical" lengths to get the evidence including remote sampling. Anyone who's been involved in this sort of work knows that it's not done lightly as it's an incredibly time consuming and costly thing to do.

They were found guilty. The "fine" wouldn't have even covered the cost of buying the "neutralising" chemicals needed and the "costs" awarded just about covered the analysis fees but didn't touch the officer time/legal team/court docs prep etc. etc.

Until the consequences are sufficiently "painful" make the actions not worth it then where's the deterrent?

Thats the thing...the so called fines/penalties are simply a cost of business expense. If I made £100m but was fined £5m for doing something bad the £5m is simply a cost so I can make £95m profit.

[Cyker]

I don't think fines should be aimed at the company - That literally does nothing but hurt the people at the bottom of the company and as mentioned above with most companies it's just seen as part of the cost of doing business.

The fines really should be targetted at the people responsible - A garnish on the wages and shares of the higher ups would be far more effective.

One of the worst things about companies is that the law lets the scum hide behind "the company" and continue to get away with all sorts of crap until they give themselves a golden handshake and retire in luxury while the company left behind disintegrates from all their bad decisions.

We've lost so many good and well loved companies in recent years/decades because of this sort of thing, while the people responsible swan off to another company to continue their leech-like ways.

[2toyos]

On 7/16/2024 at 7:05 PM, Bper said:

With the recent announcement that water bills are going up by an average of £19 a year for households, how can this be justified? Thames Water for one is £15.2 billion in debt and had initially asked the regulators for a 44% increase in bills.Thames Water is handing its new boss an annual salary worth £850,000, on top of £102,000 in yearly pension payments and a £15,000 car allowance. He is also eligible for an annual bonus worth up to 156% of his salary, or £1.3 million, which could swell his total pay to £2.3 million. 

 

 

 

I worked for Anglian water for a few years, I was a leakage detection technician, I can show you leaks where I've put in for repair and they never will repair, but will chase a poor old woman for a tiny leak in her house, the water companies need dismantling and run by the country 

[Bper]

It raises the question of whether water companies are effectively self-policing. Imagine this. 'Let's take a water sample from the river to check for contamination levels and show that our sewage dumping isn't causing pollution.'Knock, knock. 'Mr. CEO, the test results show off-the-scale chemical pollution. This isn't good.' The CEO replies, 'Oh, I was just about to discuss a pay rise and promotion with you. Now, what were you saying?' Suddenly, the test results show healthy levels and no sewage contamination. This scenario highlights the need for independent oversight."

[2toyos]

11 minutes ago, Bper said:

It raises the question of whether water companies are effectively self-policing. Imagine this. 'Let's take a water sample from the river to check for contamination levels and show that our sewage dumping isn't causing pollution.'Knock, knock. 'Mr. CEO, the test results show off-the-scale chemical pollution. This isn't good.' The CEO replies, 'Oh, I was just about to discuss a pay rise and promotion with you. Now, what were you saying?' Suddenly, the test results show healthy levels and no sewage contamination. This scenario highlights the need for independent oversight."

I know of a gentleman that works for AW, he had a sewage pipe collapse in his property that belongs to AW, they have threatened him with his job security so his poor wife had to fight aw on her own, the corruption is vile in the water industry 

[Bper]

Perhaps AW could do also do something about the hard water that destroys our taps and pipes. 4 taps and 3 wastes in 4 years.

[2toyos]

Their to busy spying on your property to make sure it isn't leaking instead of actually doing their jobs, I refused to customer side leaks after I found out they haven't repaired 100s of fixtures leaks, like SV's FH's etc etc that actually leak more then maybe 100 customer properties 

[Haliotis]

On 7/16/2024 at 7:05 PM, Bper said:

With the recent announcement that water bills are going up by an average of £19 a year for households, how can this be justified? Thames Water for one is £15.2 billion in debt and had initially asked the regulators for a 44% increase in bills.Thames Water is handing its new boss an annual salary worth £850,000, on top of £102,000 in yearly pension payments and a £15,000 car allowance. He is also eligible for an annual bonus worth up to 156% of his salary, or £1.3 million, which could swell his total pay to £2.3 million. 

 

 

 

Water companies have lashed out so much of their revenue on bloated executive salaries and bonuses, along with substantial dividends to investors, that they cannot afford to carry out necessary maintenance and upgrading without asking for more money from their customers.

This should not be happening - we all have to pay a standing order on our bills, which is supposed to cover maintenance work, but was not ring-fenced.  The water companies have been allowed to play fast and loose with their revenues, and the government and Ofwat have simply watched it all happen.

Isn’t it the same with all public companies - they are managerially top heavy, executives overpaid, and cash spent irresponsibly.  Then, when the inevitable cash-strapped situation happens, the innocent taxpayer collects the bill.

[Bper]

Water companies have spent heavily on executive salaries, bonuses, and dividends, leaving too little for maintenance and upgrades. Despite standing charges meant for upkeep, these funds haven't been protected. Critics say the government and Ofwat haven't provided enough oversight. This raises broader questions about public company governance, where high executive pay and poor spending decisions often lead to cash shortages, leaving taxpayers to pick up the bill. How can we ensure better management and accountability in public utilities?

[Haliotis]

The supposedly regulatory bodies of the public utilities are complacent, and generally jump to.   The Companies tune.  Government simply assume (can’t be bothered to check) that the regulator has everything in control, then, as is now happening, the various ministers duck down behind the parapet and set their minions about making up excuses for why it’s not their fault.

[2toyos]

7 hours ago, Haliotis said:

Water companies have lashed out so much of their revenue on bloated executive salaries and bonuses, along with substantial dividends to investors, that they cannot afford to carry out necessary maintenance and upgrading without asking for more money from their customers.

This should not be happening - we all have to pay a standing order on our bills, which is supposed to cover maintenance work, but was not ring-fenced.  The water companies have been allowed to play fast and loose with their revenues, and the government and Ofwat have simply watched it all happen.

Isn’t it the same with all public companies - they are managerially top heavy, executives overpaid, and cash spent irresponsibly.  Then, when the inevitable cash-strapped situation happens, the innocent taxpayer collects the bill.

Not just the salaries and bonuses etc etc there are projects that are heavily overpriced so both parties can fill their pockets

[Primus1]

This country rewards failure, incompetence and greed..

[Cyker]

It's not just public companies - *All* companies are run like this; It wasn't so bad originally as the people in charge of public infrastructure would run them differently and in a more appropriate way, but when everything got privatized, people from the private sector got in and started trying to run things like they were a private company.

I even see this in schools, where a new business manager gets in and starts trying to run it like a business, which ends up destroying the spirit of the school as the soul gets sucked out of it and all the good teachers get pushed out in favour of cheaper inexperienced NQTs who no longer have any experienced teachers for them to learn their craft from, as would have happened previously.

[dannyboy413]

Why oh why, does a school need a 'business manager'? I know I have just put my rose tinted glasses on, but when I was at school, there were teachers, a Deputy Headmaster and a Headmaster. Hospitals had nurses, Sisters and a Matron.  If I had to go to the Doctors, the waiting room was the front room at his house and the Surgery was the back room. Progress can be a good thing, but not when it is there purely to make some money for a faceless corporation.  Life seems to be just one big money making machine these days and (expletive) the man in the street. And as for the man, (and woman), in the street who have a large brood of youngsters, so that they can get benefits left, right and centre ..... okay, rant over, I'll shut up now. 😊

[Mjolinor]

23 minutes ago, dannyboy413 said:

Why oh why, does a school need a 'business manager'? I know I have just put my rose tinted glasses on, but when I was at school, there were teachers, a Deputy Headmaster and a Headmaster. Hospitals had nurses, Sisters and a Matron.  If I had to go to the Doctors, the waiting room was the front room at his house and the Surgery was the back room. Progress can be a good thing, but not when it is there purely to make some money for a faceless corporation.  Life seems to be just one big money making machine these days and (expletive) the man in the street. And as for the man, (and woman), in the street who have a large brood of youngsters, so that they can get benefits left, right and centre ..... okay, rant over, I'll shut up now. 😊

This is where the dictionary description given for "nostalgia" is incorrect, it is simply "knowing it was better then". 🙂

[Cyker]

1 hour ago, dannyboy413 said:

Why oh why, does a school need a 'business manager'? I know I have just put my rose tinted glasses on, but when I was at school, there were teachers, a Deputy Headmaster and a Headmaster. Hospitals had nurses, Sisters and a Matron.  If I had to go to the Doctors, the waiting room was the front room at his house and the Surgery was the back room. Progress can be a good thing, but not when it is there purely to make some money for a faceless corporation.  Life seems to be just one big money making machine these days and (expletive) the man in the street. And as for the man, (and woman), in the street who have a large brood of youngsters, so that they can get benefits left, right and centre ..... okay, rant over, I'll shut up now. 😊

I know, the fact that that is a role almost shows in itself what a hash successive governments have made of the education system.

It genuinely feels like they are trying to run them into the ground so they can be privatized - The Academy scheme, where normal schools get handed over to private 'Academy companies' who then dictate the terms of employment instead of following the standard, and don't have to follow the National Curriculum, was the beginning of that, although thankfully it seems like that has stopped for the moment...

 

[Corolly Poly]

6 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I know, the fact that that is a role almost shows in itself what a hash successive governments have made of the education system.

It genuinely feels like they are trying to run them into the ground so they can be privatized - The Academy scheme, where normal schools get handed over to private 'Academy companies' who then dictate the terms of employment instead of following the standard, and don't have to follow the National Curriculum, was the beginning of that, although thankfully it seems like that has stopped for the moment...

 

I think that was certainly the case with the Conservative Government. Particularly with regard to the NHS. It was a strategic decision to run down the service to make users disgruntled and ease the path to privatisation and the award of lucrative contracts to their mates.