When will they get the App right on the PHEV

[Nick72]

Notice the inconsistency...

[Hayzee]

30% of traction Battery is zero miles EV range (reserved for HEV mode), so 70% of the traction Battery supports max EV range. 15% of the remaining 70% = 10.5% of max EV range, assume 55 miles EV range x 10.5% = approx 8 miles or so. Hope I have the math correct?

[Nick72]

I should have been more specific. Apols.

Why is the Battery percentage at 45% and the EV range showing 7 or 8 miles (which is correct). 45% of what I'm getting at the moment (54 miles) is about 25 miles. Mismatched.

[Hayzee]

25 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

I should have been more specific. Apols.

Why is the battery percentage at 45% and the EV range showing 7 or 8 miles (which is correct). 45% of what I'm getting at the moment (54 miles) is about 25 miles. Mismatched.

Nick it's 15% of 70% of what your getting not 45%.  It's 45% less the 30% reserve for HEV, so it's 15% of 70% = 10.5 % of 54 miles = approx 6 miles.

 

[Nick72]

6 minutes ago, Hayzee said:

Nick it's 15% of 70% of what your getting not 45%.  It's 45% less the 30% reserve for HEV, so it's 15% of 70% = 10.5 % of 54 miles = approx 8 miles

 

The two green bars for fuel and Battery. Battery bar is almost mid way in green and says 45%. 45% is not 7 or 8 miles range shown in the numbers below it. Even if the Battery bar did include the reserve for hybrid operation (which is inaccessible so is daft if they did) it still doesn't add up.

The green battery bar is misaligned with the 7 or 8 miles of EV range (which is correct in the cockpit).

Am I missing something on the green bar with battery symbol?

[Cyker]

I think he's saying 30% is 'reserved' for the HEV, so out of that 45%, remove 30%, which leaves 15%

but it's not 15% of 100%, it's 15% of... you know what this needs a diagram...!

[Nick72]

If the total Battery including reserve is say 18.1kWhrs and the accessible value is just over 14kWhrs approx then that 14kWhrs equates to 54 miles. If I'm down at 8 miles left then that's 8/54 + 4.1/18 (the reserve) = 37%. So it still don't add up for me.

Main thing is why include the reserve on the Battery bar? It's inaccessible. Most users want to glance at the top graphic. Fuel full, Battery about a half so that's 25 miles?

 

[Nick72]

2 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I think he's saying 30% is 'reserved' for the HEV, so out of that 45%, remove 30%, which leaves 15%

but it's not 15% of 100%, it's 15% of... you know what this needs a diagram...!

Calculated above. 

[Nick72]

1 minute ago, Nick72 said:

If the total battery including reserve is say 18.1kWhrs and the accessible value is just over 14kWhrs approx then that 14kWhrs equates to 54 miles. If I'm down at 8 miles left then that's 8/54 + 4.1/18 (the reserve) = 37%. So it still don't add up for me.

Main thing is why include the reserve on the battery bar? It's inaccessible. Most users want to glance at the top graphic. Fuel full, battery about a half so that's 25 miles?

 

Or just show a blue part of the bar as the reserve and then state the percentage of accessible Battery. 

Feels like amateur hour at Toyota UI App team.

[Hayzee]

It's more like 30% reserve = 18.1kwh x 30% = 5.4 kWh leaving approx 12.7 kWh for pure EV. I know we usually charge more than 12.7 kWh from 0 zero miles but there is power loss and sometimes I think the reserve drops below 30% even though it might not show on the display. It's not an exact science with this app information.

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, Hayzee said:

It's more like 30% reserve = 18.1kwh x 30% = 5.4 kWh leaving approx 12.7 kWh for pure EV. I know we usually charge more than 12.7 kWh from 0 zero miles but there is power loss and sometimes I think the reserve drops below 30% even though it might not show on the display. It's not an exact science with this app information.

You could be right. But it's still completely daft showing both a bar and percentage which has no real bearing on the EV range. 

[ernieb]

I've always felt that the EV Battery bar should indicate what's viable to me as the driver in EV mode the same way that the 'fuel' does for the HEV mode (but of course this uses the dedicated traction Battery reserved for the purpose i.e. 30%)

[philip42h]

13 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Notice the inconsistency...

Two questions:

1. Is the EV range remaining of 7-8 miles as displayed broadly correct?
2. It shows the SoC as 45% (full) - so 55% empty. 55% of 18.1 kWh = 9.955 kWh. Would it now require around 10 kWh to get the Battery back to 100%?

If 'yes' to both, the App display is arguably correct.

Out of idle curiosity, what does the App display as an EV SoC once you've run the EV range down to zero?

And, as an aside, the App shows the level of fuel in my HEV reasonably accurately - i.e. currently 46% or around half a tank. But it declines to give a range remaining - it has a field for Range showing '-' ...

[Mike2222]

16 hours ago, Nick72 said:

You could be right. But it's still completely daft showing both a bar and percentage which has no real bearing on the EV range. 

I completely agree from a user perspective, but if I was a betting man, this is probably displayed this way because Toyota are making a point about their hybrid technology/engineering prowess. Makes it easier to explain that "the Battery is never flat, so you can access the full power of both energy sources". Sort of a mixture of a "Humble-brag" and a marketing gimmick. 

 

It also makes it easier to defeat the hybrid naysayers who like to shout about the idea of "dragging a useless empty Battery around". 

[ernieb]

7 hours ago, philip42h said:

Two questions:

1. Is the EV range remaining of 7-8 miles as displayed broadly correct?
2. It shows the SoC as 45% (full) - so 55% empty. 55% of 18.1 kWh = 9.955 kWh. Would it now require around 10 kWh to get the battery back to 100%?

If 'yes' to both, the App display is arguably correct.

Out of idle curiosity, what does the App display as an EV SoC once you've run the EV range down to zero?

And, as an aside, the App shows the level of fuel in my HEV reasonably accurately - i.e. currently 46% or around half a tank. But it declines to give a range remaining - it has a field for Range showing '-' ...

EV range zero = 30% SoC. This is where the confusion can exist - at this point the car runs in HEV mode. (Assuming the car is in EV mode it will automatically switch to HEV mode)
@Nick72 has managed to nearly run the traction Battery to zero when using HEV, pretty unusual in my experience.

0-30% HEV mode

30-100% EV mode

[Nick72]

8 hours ago, philip42h said:

Two questions:

1. Is the EV range remaining of 7-8 miles as displayed broadly correct?
2. It shows the SoC as 45% (full) - so 55% empty. 55% of 18.1 kWh = 9.955 kWh. Would it now require around 10 kWh to get the battery back to 100%?

If 'yes' to both, the App display is arguably correct.

Out of idle curiosity, what does the App display as an EV SoC once you've run the EV range down to zero?

And, as an aside, the App shows the level of fuel in my HEV reasonably accurately - i.e. currently 46% or around half a tank. But it declines to give a range remaining - it has a field for Range showing '-' ...

1. Is correct. 7 to 8 miles remaining. As per cockpit.

2. Don't know as I'm away from home and no charger so there's zero miles left.

I've run it down to zero but it's gained 1.9 miles from regen down the last mountain road. Says 38% EV remaining. So I'm slightly more confused now than before. 

Unclear if the fuel range mileage includes or excluded the reserve. I've accidentally tested when the fuel dial hit R and orange light on and ended up driving over 80 miles. So there's probably the best part of 2 gallons of reserve. Another source of confusion.

 

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, Mike2222 said:

I completely agree from a user perspective, but if I was a betting man, this is probably displayed this way because Toyota are making a point about their hybrid technology/engineering prowess. Makes it easier to explain that "the battery is never flat, so you can access the full power of both energy sources". Sort of a mixture of a "Humble-brag" and a marketing gimmick. 

 

It also makes it easier to defeat the hybrid naysayers who like to shout about the idea of "dragging a useless empty battery around". 

Agree with this but it's bad UI design. And, ironically, a design they've already got right in the cockpit. The blue bar indicates the hybrid Battery reserve on the driver display as far as I recall. So why not simply replicate that in the App and show part of the green bar on the left in blue?

[Nick72]

50 minutes ago, ernieb said:

EV range zero = 30% SoC. This is where the confusion can exist - at this point the car runs in HEV mode. (Assuming the car is in EV mode it will automatically switch to HEV mode)
@Nick72 has managed to nearly run the traction battery to zero when using HEV, pretty unusual in my experience.

0-30% HEV mode

30-100% EV mode

I had to work exceptionally hard but it was almost at the 0 of the blue reserve bar. But as soon as you are not accelerating hard up hill the power from the ICE is going into the generator and the needle starts noticeably moving up through the blue zone.

This I think is Toyota's magic...

Max power is 302hp (306 din) and engineered to be available in all normal and some abnormal circumstances when accelerating hard in hybrid mode. Nicely tuned, because when you think about it, we only have a 176 (?) HP engine. So where does the other 126 or so HP come from? The reserve of the traction Battery is the only other source. But that's finite and will run out? No, because any left over power between what you need to cruise or gently accelerate, and, the 176 ICE HP (?) is going via the generator to topping up the traction Battery reserve. The reserve is critical to enabling the 302 max HP. This for me is the most sophisticated engineering in the car which others are trying to copy. Highly efficient solution. Recall the Mitsubishi Outlander got this wrong and when the reserve was out the car went into snail mode, as my neighbour discovered when he had one. As you've mentioned Ernie I did try extremely hard to get the R4P into a snail mode, ICE power only available so a massive drop down, but although I almost did it I couldn't quite. That was extremely abnormal driving too. Now, I wonder if this is the key factor in max towing weight. Because, towing something, up hill, accelerating hard for a period might break it, meaning there is no excess ICE power available to keep the reserve topped up as it's all now consumed during the tow.

[philip42h]

57 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

Unclear if the fuel range mileage includes or excluded the reserve. I've accidentally tested when the fuel dial hit R and orange light on and ended up driving over 80 miles. So there's probably the best part of 2 gallons of reserve. Another source of confusion.

'Tis very clear - it excludes the reserve. It's a Toyota 'marmite' thing but there is a significant 'hidden' fuel reserve - you either love or you hate it (or maybe you just don't care).

It's easier to measure on a HEV - just run beyond the reserve light coming on until the car says zero miles left, pop into a garage and brim the 55L tank. The most I've ever got in is 48L - meaning that there is around 7L in reserve. Not confusing at all (by the time you are on your third RAV4). 😉 

[Nick72]

That seems. About right. I did 80 something miles after it read zero. So I think maybe slightly more than 7 litres?