2017 Yaris a/c problem

[superl99]

Hi all, new member here and desperate for some advice. I bought the car new in October 2017 and it has barely over 30k miles on it thanks to not driving a lot during Covid. The last 2 or 3 years the a/c hasn't worked very well, so I've asked them to check it with every service, but when the next summer comes round it's back to blowing lukewarm. Had an a/c check at Halfords in June and they said pressure and gas were fine so it was probably something deeper and needed Toyota to do a full diagnostic, so I took it in last week to get it properly checked out. Was told 'high pressure pipe leaking (condenser to join)' at a cost of £650. Ouch, but I approved it. Then they came back and said when they went to replace it that the pipe threading was stripped and they have to replace both pipes at an additional cost of over £1100. When asked how this could happen, I was told it's rare but 'just sometimes happens with the alloy they use for the pipes'. To me that sounds like a them problem, and I don't understand how it could have gone from nothing to this despite what was supposed to be several checks of the a/c system over the years. I'm not exactly keen to pay nearly £1800 to get this fixed if they're trying to pull a fast one on me! Has anyone heard of something like this and am I getting scammed here? Many thanks!

[Mojo1010]

Can't help with it. If it cost that much to fix then consideration to sell to these online car traders like motorways/carwow/we buy any car etc. Get another car, bit of a faff though better than spending that much on it. 

[superl99]

Thanks for the quick reply. The car itself is worth considerably more than the repair and completely paid off, so that seems like a bit of an extreme reaction. What I'm trying to figure out is whether a) this is a known issue that could potentially be a warranty cover situation, b) it's even a real thing or if they're just trying to scam me with an unneccessary repair and c) (if it is real) the cost is wildly inflated and could be done more reasonably at a non-dealer garage.

[Mojo1010]

Take it to an ac specialist for a second opinion. Don't think you got what I meant in the previous post, you can get a decent price through selling to those companies or local garages and buy another one. 

[Bernard Foy]

This doesn't sound right at all. Either Toyota stripped the threads during manufacturing process or the dealer stripped the threads during their investigations or they are not stripped at all and they are scamming you. It's certainly not down to anything you have done or is it down to wear and tear. Either Toyota or the dealer is responsible. 

[Mooly]

If the refrigerant quantity is OK (the 'gas') and the correct quantity was in there when it was checked then I'm struggling to see how they could say there was a leak. That just doesn't compute to me.

Even if there were a small leak, if the correct quantity was present when tested it would still work normally.

If you look under the bonnet you should spot a couple of thin pipes coming from below the windscreen area that may have plastic caps on them (which are valves... don't touch the caps and may be marked LO and HI) and one of these should pipes should feel quite cold when its all running and will more than likely be dripping wet with condensation. The other should be warm to hot.

If that is so then it means the parts that are meant to get cold seem to be doing so. Its not an accurate test of refrigerant levels but is a basic go/no go test. 

[superl99]

Thank you! I don't have the car right now so can't look, but the Halford's guy said the problem was likely to be somewhere in the high pressure part of the system. Toyota sent me a video for the initial repair, here's the screen grab from where they say the small leak is at the clip.

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, Mooly said:

If the refrigerant quantity is OK (the 'gas') and the correct quantity was in there when it was checked then I'm struggling to see how they could say there was a leak. That just doesn't compute to me.

Ditto. If it had been leaking to lose enough for the a/c not too be working ok for 2-3 years then it would be low on gas. Then again I'd want to know how Halfords measured the quantity.

I'd guess the stripped threads may be due to corrosion so they failed when being undone, but the pipework in the picture looks very clean. 

I'd ask the dealer if it can be made driveable, so you can take it to a a/c specialist for a second opinion and quote. (You might even find the dealer revises their offer at that point.)

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 hour ago, superl99 said:

What I'm trying to figure out is whether a) this is a known issue that could potentially be a warranty cover situation

What service history does the car have? Toyota or elsewhere? 

[superl99]

I can't remember the details but I seem to recall the Halfords guy said it was holding pressure and had plenty of gas so that wasn't the problem. He thought it was most likely to be some kind of blockage.

Full service history always at the Toyota dealer. I have evidence of it already not working in 2021 (had air con service in June 2021, sent it back September of 2021 saying it wasn't blowing cold and they said no sign of leak). I wonder if they actually stripped it when doing the air con service back then, as it's been dodgy since that time!

[wildtapholer]

I would have thought that if you bought the car new in 2017 and have had it serviced by Toyota each year it should be covered by their relax warranty, they stripped the threads not you, there is one member on here got their A/C matrix replaced under the relax warranty and the whole dash had to come out for that and I think it cost in the region of £3k.

[superl99]

Thank you! The garage is trying to claim that this is something that 'just happens and it's unfortunate', which doesn't seem a very likely scenario. How can threads just strip without something to cause it?

[TonyHSD]

I think you should seek a lawyer help and take these to court, refusing to pay anything more than the price agreed. If they tell you that sometimes something can break that’s not your problem. They should covered it by themselves or not proceed with the job. 
You need legal advice and help. Don’t pay them anything. And don’t let them work on your car if they haven’t started yet. 
I see a court case here. We are talking about big money. 

[TonyHSD]

4 minutes ago, superl99 said:

Thank you! The garage is trying to claim that this is something that 'just happens and it's unfortunate', which doesn't seem a very likely scenario. How can threads just strip without something to cause it?

They messed it up for sure and now are tryouts to blame on the car. 
No matter what happens in a garage , or is never a car or owners fault, therefore you are not obligated to pay anything on top on the agreed price. 
 

[dash]

If they stripped the threads during dismantling then it’s down to them to arrange repair at their cost, and like Tony said, they provided a fixed price for the job. If damage occurred during working on the car then it’s their liability to put things right.

[Cyker]

I've not had a good experience with Toyota dealers and AC diagnostics.

I had AC issues in my Mk2, and after taking it to several places I let the dealer have a go - I told them the condenser had been replaced and several other garages had checked it so it likely wasn't something obvious.

They came back and said categorically there were leaks in the high and low pipes and wanted £1000 to replace them. I expressed doubt in this but they stood by their diagnosis.

£1000 and 2 shiny new high and low pressure pipes later the AC gas ran out even faster - Didn't even last a week. I went back to them and was like, wtf guys, this is literally worse than it was before. Puzzled, they then had another look.

They then diagnosed the condenser as having a leak; I reminded them it had just been replaced. They then decided it must be the compressor.

Being unwilling to be on the receiving end of what I now realize was Parts Cannon Diagnostics, I had a go at them, and now I'm in a Mk4 minus the cost of the work and scrappage offer on the Mk2.

 

It's pretty clear to me the dealers, or at least my one, doesn't have anyone who is skilled or experienced at diagnostics (Unsurprising given the staff turnover) and they just treat the symptoms without trying to find underlying causes.

If you can find an AC specialist with a good reputation, I'd get them to look at it. They will also likely be cheaper as they can usually make pipes themselves, and won't be averse to using reconditioned or third party parts. The trick is finding one as they are often terrible at advertising themselves! I found one way is to ask garages if they know any AC specialists, but a lot of them just use their own in-house AC machine and don't use anyone any more.

However, just be aware, if the previous owner never used the AC, the system might be too far gone - AC gas becomes acidic when exposed to water, and I have a theory with my Mk2 that the previous owner never used the AC and all the seals dried out, allowing the water in atmospheric air to mix with the gas and the acidic mixture started attacking things like the compressor and the inside of all the pipes.

[Mooly]

It all sounds very strange and not easily untangled from all that seems to have been said and done over time. If its been poor for a few years then it doesn't sound like a leak because that would just go worse and worse as gas was lost and then it would become totally non operational. It wouldn't remain just remain 'poor' over two or three years with a leak. 

I would have thought a suspected "blockage" should be diagnosable using a basic manifold gauge set (two gauges, one attached to each service valve) which show the pressures in the system when its operating. Dismantling of anything is not normally done AFAIK for basic testing and diagnostics.

In the video he seems to say the the clip on the high pressure pipe has a leak... but I think the thin pipe is the high pressure one, the thicker pipe he zooms in on is on the low side.

As always, at a distance diagnosis is difficult.

[superl99]

22 minutes ago, Cyker said:

However, just be aware, if the previous owner never used the AC, the system might be too far gone - AC gas becomes acidic when exposed to water, and I have a theory with my Mk2 that the previous owner never used the AC and all the seals dried out, allowing the water in atmospheric air to mix with the gas and the acidic mixture started attacking things like the compressor and the inside of all the pipes.

Sounds like a horrific experience and I'm inclined to think they don't know what they're talking about! Just one point, there was no previous owner- I bought it new and I have used the a/c, just not very frequently in recent years given that it barely ever blew out cold air! Luckily I live in Scotland, so it hasn't been needed that often XD

[FROSTYBALLS]

See the attached re the Relax extended warranty terms and conditions and what is covered:

Think contacting Toyota Customer Services may be the next step.

[Cyker]

6 minutes ago, superl99 said:

Sounds like a horrific experience and I'm inclined to think they don't know what they're talking about! Just one point, there was no previous owner- I bought it new and I have used the a/c, just not very frequently in recent years given that it barely ever blew out cold air! Luckily I live in Scotland, so it hasn't been needed that often XD

Yeah it was quite disappointing - You expect the dealers to be expensive but to know the vehicles like the back of their hands, but that and several other incidents have made me think they're just like any other garage in terms of ability level.

Frosty makes a good point - If you have been servicing the vehicle at the dealer all this time, most of the AC system will be covered under the Relax warranty. It's almost worth letting them replace the pipes, (Which I think aren't covered alas), then if it still doesn't work and they decide it is the compressor, THAT will be covered under warranty!!

 

 

[superl99]

I want whatever solution will not cause me to pay £1800 and will fix my a/c 😄

[FROSTYBALLS]

Although it is too late now, I don't understand why you didn't follow up the issue in 2021 when the a/c was not working properly, and the car would have been covered by the new car warranty.

[superl99]

I did follow up every year, but it would work temporarily just long enough to get to the point I didn't need it and then fall off the radar until the following summer. This is the first time they've claimed to identify something wrong with the system, I was previously just told that a/cs can be temperamental and I just had to get it topped up every year.

[FROSTYBALLS]

3 hours ago, superl99 said:

I have evidence of it already not working in 2021 (had air con service in June 2021, sent it back September of 2021 saying it wasn't blowing cold and they said no sign of leak).

But that would have been to the time to follow it up rather than a year later.

[superl99]

I worded that poorly. I had the a/c serviced in June that year (I think it was recommended because the car was 4 years old and it was a standard summer check up thing), but when I took it for the service in September I told them it wasn't blowing cold so they investigated. They said it didn't have a leak, but they did another recharge of the system and it blew cold again until such time as I didn't need the a/c anymore for that year (which, since that was September in Scotland, was another few days :P). When I needed it again the following spring it wasn't cold again, so I complained again and was told a/cs are just like that.