Flat battery !

[Exile61]

Good afternoon , I’ve been having a problems with the Battery going flat on my Auris 2013 hybrid, the car had only done 40k from new , and serviced regularly.Its had two new batteries in the last twelve months , when the first one was fitted all was well for 10 months , we had it checked and the company replaced it under warranty with no quibbles , 2months later that went flat , we charged it up and refitted it , two days later flat again .We then had all the charging system rechecked and it was showing 14.2v charging ..all good ..Every thing then run as normal for a couple of weeks , flat again .

The car will start first time if jumped from another vehicle .Its been in Toyota’s for the last week where they have had it on test , checking to see if it discharges overnight , wether different things disconnected made any difference , wether the alarm was on or off , wether the locking system was on or off etc etc ..

We collected the car yesterday with no faults showing , drove it 150miles stopping and starting no problem , until we came out this morning flat as a pancake ..jump started it and drove it back to Toyotas where it is currently residing..Before switching it off they again checked the charging system which showed all was well ..

Has anyone else had this problem , Toyota in Dénia ( Spain) don’t seem to have a clue ..

[FROSTYBALLS]

From memory, there was a problem with the hazard warning lights switch on some early second generation Auris, where it was causing a Battery drain overnight, etc.

[TonyHSD]

How often do you drive your car and for how long at a time? 
For example once a week , twice or more? And once you start the car how long you keep it ON ( ready mode) ? 
When the car is parked in garage or driveway, do you lock it or keep unlocked? 
When the car is parked do you walk nearby with keys in your pocket? Does it have keyless entry ? 
These are questions with greater importance to explain your Battery problems. You have low mileage old car, this is something that immediately ring the bell about low use and Battery problems. 

[Exile61]

1 hour ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

From memory, there was a problem with the hazard warning lights switch on some early second generation Auris, where it was causing a battery drain overnight, etc.

Hi thanks for your reply , the car has all the updates including the new hazard warning light switch .

[Exile61]

1 hour ago, TonyHSD said:

How often do you drive your car and for how long at a time? 
For example once a week , twice or more? And once you start the car how long you keep it ON ( ready mode) ? 
When the car is parked in garage or driveway, do you lock it or keep unlocked? 
When the car is parked do you walk nearby with keys in your pocket? Does it have keyless entry ? 
These are questions with greater importance to explain your battery problems. You have low mileage old car, this is something that immediately ring the bell about low use and battery problems. 

Hi Tony thank you for your reply , the car is driven virtually every day albeit just local stuff around town ,but it does get a good run on a regular basis , the last failure was a matter of hours after a 150kl  run to Alicante , when the car is parked it’s invariably locked , it does have keyless entry and we have experimented by not locking it and for a couple of days as we thought this was a possible cause , unfortunately not ..

We bought the car from a Toyota dealer in Sussex when it was six years old with just 17k miles on , one owner full history .Hope this helps ..

[Cyker]

Where do you keep the keys? We had a load of people back in the day who parked on their driveway and kept their keys practically next to the car on the other side of the wall, and the two kept pinging each other which accelerated 12v drain.

If that's not it, may need an experienced auto-electrician to try and trace the parasitic draw that's draining the Battery...

[mcntosh]

58 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Where do you keep the keys? We had a load of people back in the day who parked on their driveway and kept their keys practically next to the car on the other side of the wall, and the two kept pinging each other which accelerated 12v drain

This is one of reasons I keep my keys in a Faraday pouch. The range of the signal is surprisingly long.

[TonyHSD]

I think what kills the Battery is short time in ready mode, anything less than 20-30min will impact the 12v Battery life. 
The reason is because each time the car is locked and unlocked with drivers door open or close the brakes drains power since the electric pump pressurise and depressurised itself. So if we do a lots of short time 10-15min drives and each time we switch off and then on the car we actually drain more power than the inverter is able to recharge. With the time and repeating these events the 12v Battery will get low enough so the car will fail to start. Once this happens even if you charge it with charger then after very likely the battery will die again and only option will be a new battery. 
The keyless thing is not a big deal , the key is not recognised as soon as you step away from the car for a meter or two. But if you walk around the car and the car is locked each time you come closer than meter the car will detect you are nearby and will turn on the interior lights which will remain on for a minute or so. Also every time you open ans close drivers door you are draining battery power because of the brake booster , try to avoid any unnecessary openings. For example you forgot your phone and you went. Inside the house, now you can go back to the car but instead of opening drivers door open the passenger door and take your phone , the brake booster will not be activated ans you save some battery power.  

[Exile61]

10 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

I think what kills the battery is short time in ready mode, anything less than 20-30min will impact the 12v battery life. 
The reason is because each time the car is locked and unlocked with drivers door open or close the brakes drains power since the electric pump pressurise and depressurised itself. So if we do a lots of short time 10-15min drives and each time we switch off and then on the car we actually drain more power than the inverter is able to recharge. With the time and repeating these events the 12v battery will get low enough so the car will fail to start. Once this happens even if you charge it with charger then after very likely the battery will die again and only option will be a new battery. 
The keyless thing is not a big deal , the key is not recognised as soon as you step away from the car for a meter or two. But if you walk around the car and the car is locked each time you come closer than meter the car will detect you are nearby and will turn on the interior lights which will remain on for a minute or so. Also every time you open ans close drivers door you are draining battery power because of the brake booster , try to avoid any unnecessary openings. For example you forgot your phone and you went. Inside the house, now you can go back to the car but instead of opening drivers door open the passenger door and take your phone , the brake booster will not be activated ans you save some battery power.  

All interesting advice , I’ll run this past the Toyota people ..When we run it around town it seems less of a problem than when it goes on a long run 50+ miles , when it run flat yesterday it was a couple of hours after a 150mile run , given the Battery is new and when checked it’s showing 14.2v going in I’m lost as to why ..

Luckily my other car is a 23year old Landcruiser  Amazon with very basic electronic gadgetry..That starts and stops when required ! ..👍

Many thanks for your advice ..

[Eddiefh]

Will be interesting to see what Toyota say now given you say you’ve drove it 150 miles since they last had it , who was “the company “ that changed under warranty and what brand are they fitting and are they 100% changing it or saying it’s replaced and just charging the first one . 
I’ve read your original post multiple times and I can only think there’s a drain I’m not sure putting a new Battery on it now is the answer without checking for drains or rechecking alternator given you’ve done a long journey when you last picked it up . 
im in the parts game and my company blindly throws batteries at cars when the customer has problems we now supply yuasa and the contract is a bit more strict on returns so we have to rightly investigate before giving away batteries when there’s obviously another problem 

your cars in the best place did your heals in and they should get to bottom of the problem 

[Exile61]

On 8/15/2024 at 9:39 AM, Eddiefh said:

Will be interesting to see what Toyota say now given you say you’ve drove it 150 miles since they last had it , who was “the company “ that changed under warranty and what brand are they fitting and are they 100% changing it or saying it’s replaced and just charging the first one . 
I’ve read your original post multiple times and I can only think there’s a drain I’m not sure putting a new battery on it now is the answer without checking for drains or rechecking alternator given you’ve done a long journey when you last picked it up . 
im in the parts game and my company blindly throws batteries at cars when the customer has problems we now supply yuasa and the contract is a bit more strict on returns so we have to rightly investigate before giving away batteries when there’s obviously another problem 

your cars in the best place did your heals in and they should get to bottom of the problem 

I can’t recall the make of the Battery but it was fitted by a friend who does a lot of business with the supplier, hence the no quibble exchange , as you say the problem isn’t the Battery it’s more than likely an electrical fault that’s drawing down on the Battery .From what Toyota tell me , it being a hybrid doesn’t have an alternator , I’m assuming it’s got some type of inverter 🤔, what ever it has clearly isn’t working .

Sometimes these cars are to clever by half , we have several older Landcruisers with absolute basic running gear and minimal computer input that are driven and worked daily , serviced regularly they are as reliable as any vehicle  could ever be .. the two  80series have in excess of 400,000 miles on the clock ! 

Thank you for your reply I’ll keep you informed as to what Toyota come up with .

[TonyHSD]

13 minutes ago, Exile61 said:

I can’t recall the make of the battery but it was fitted by a friend who does a lot of business with the supplier, hence the no quibble exchange , as you say the problem isn’t the battery it’s more than likely an electrical fault that’s drawing down on the battery .From what Toyota tell me , it being a hybrid doesn’t have an alternator , I’m assuming it’s got some type of inverter 🤔, what ever it has clearly isn’t working .

Sometimes these cars are to clever by half , we have several older Landcruisers with absolute basic running gear and minimal computer input that are driven and worked daily , serviced regularly they are as reliable as any vehicle  could ever be .. the two  80series have in excess of 400,000 miles on the clock ! 

Thank you for your reply I’ll keep you informed as to what Toyota come up with .

Hi,

these cars although full of electronics they are ultra reliable. 
The problem with batteries comes from use or lack of it. 
Yes, hybrids are different from standard petrol or diesel vehicles and require just tiny bit extra care or attention and they can last as long as any other cars or even longer. 
Your car should have AGM Battery fitted into the boot. 
When replacing make sure you only use same original Toyota Battery or Yuassa AGM, because type of Battery matters and best practice is to stay original. You can take a picture of the battery and share . Meanwhile here an example of batteries and how they can last long. 

The inverter if faulty it will trigger fault code and warning lights. No need to worry about it. But if you prefer you can buy off Amazon a car charger with volt meter like this or similar INIU Car Charger, 66W 6A Car Charger Adapter, 2-Port (USB C+USB A) PD3.0 QC4.0+ fast charge USB Car Charger for iPhone 15 14 13 12 11 Pro Max Samsung Galaxy S21 S20 Note Huawei iPad Laptops AirPods https://amzn.eu/d/8A4lHSI

[Exile61]

5 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi,

these cars although full of electronics they are ultra reliable. 
The problem with batteries comes from use or lack of it. 
Yes, hybrids are different from standard petrol or diesel vehicles and require just tiny bit extra care or attention and they can last as long as any other cars or even longer. 
Your car should have AGM battery fitted into the boot. 
When replacing make sure you only use same original Toyota battery or Yuassa AGM, because type of battery matters and best practice is to stay original. You can take a picture of the battery and share . Meanwhile here an example of batteries and how they can last long. 

The inverter if faulty it will trigger fault code and warning lights. No need to worry about it. But if you prefer you can buy off Amazon a car charger with volt meter like this or similar INIU Car Charger, 66W 6A Car Charger Adapter, 2-Port (USB C+USB A) PD3.0 QC4.0+ fast charge USB Car Charger for iPhone 15 14 13 12 11 Pro Max Samsung Galaxy S21 S20 Note Huawei iPad Laptops AirPods https://amzn.eu/d/8A4lHSI

Thanks again Tony for your reply , the car shows no warning lights or fault codes …Toyota have checked the Battery and confirmed it is the correct one , they monitored it for a full week and gave it a clean bill of health , I’m just hoping now they have the car back in a discharged condition they can find out what’s causing the problem ..

[Exile61]

Hi all , the saga continues, I’ve just picked up the car after another week in Toyotas , they cannot find a fault with the car after monitoring it for another week , sadly I don’t speak particularly good Spanish and they don’t speak particularly good English .When asked what comes next they just shrug their shoulders .

My thoughts are the car is draining the Battery more so after a long run , when stationary and cold everything is normal , could it be the fault occurs when it’s warm ?? ..could the electric water pump , which I presume only comes on when up to the required temperature be draining it which would be why it’s draining more when it’s been on a long run ..? ..

Does anyone know a reliable Toyota main agent in the uk that could offer an expat some help ? ..my Auris can’t be the only one that’s ever had this problem ..

Cheers Rich ..

[TonyHSD]

23 hours ago, Exile61 said:

Hi all , the saga continues, I’ve just picked up the car after another week in Toyotas , they cannot find a fault with the car after monitoring it for another week , sadly I don’t speak particularly good Spanish and they don’t speak particularly good English .When asked what comes next they just shrug their shoulders .

My thoughts are the car is draining the battery more so after a long run , when stationary and cold everything is normal , could it be the fault occurs when it’s warm ?? ..could the electric water pump , which I presume only comes on when up to the required temperature be draining it which would be why it’s draining more when it’s been on a long run ..? ..

Does anyone know a reliable Toyota main agent in the uk that could offer an expat some help ? ..my Auris can’t be the only one that’s ever had this problem ..

Cheers Rich ..

Hi, 

what you have described as Battery goes flat after 50 min or longer drives points towards a bad Battery., and more likely a process called Battery sulfation. 

'What is Battery Sulfation? Sulfation, a build-up of lead sulfate crystals, is the number one cause of early failures of lead-acid, sealed AGM or flooded (wet cell-filler caps) batteries. A sulfated battery can lead to: loss of cranking power.'

This is from Google. 

You ca do more thorough research.
I can only suggest you to disconnect the negative terminal for overnight to let all ecu and relays reset. The water pump or any other power consumer can not affect your 12v battery while the car been in ready mode as long as the inverter works correctly. if something is wrong and drains your battery is likely to be while the car been off. 
I believe  you need a new original Toyota battery £140 in uk . 

[Exile61]

Hi Tony , the car has had two week long stints in Toyota , the Battery has been changed twice , Toyota confirmed the present Battery is perfect .
They had the car on test overnight for a week or so , the car started every morning with no problem , they also started it a couple of times during the day again with no problem, the only thing they never did  was to drive it .Ive got the car back now , so far it’s going ok , my next job is to give it a long run to see if it does as I think and run the Battery down ..I’ve got a pal of mine back in the UK who’s going to run the problem by his Toyota dealer and a couple of auto electricians that do his work ( he’s a car dealer)..Thanks for your reply’s and interest 👍👍
ps , the first battery I put on was a Toyota supplied one , it lasted 13months , I changed that in the belief it was flat , in hindsight it was probably still perfectly good ..

[solero]

Yes try and reproduce the problem yourself rather than wasting time/money with the dealer.

Check the Battery voltage at intervals to determine when its dropping.

[solero]

1 hour ago, solero said:

Yes try and reproduce the problem yourself rather than wasting time/money with the dealer.

Check the battery voltage at intervals to determine when its dropping.

You can check batt voltage from dash, but dont ask me as im not a hybrid owner.

[Red_Corolla]

23 hours ago, solero said:

You can check batt voltage from dash, but dont ask me as im not a hybrid owner.

Monitoring the Battery voltage throughout a longer drive would be a good strategy, I think. Need to confirm if it's a charging system issue or not. I don't know the Auris, but the newer Corolla doesn't show the 12v Battery voltage via the car's own instruments. It might be a case of either using a diagnostic tool or running some test leads from the Battery to a multimeter on the passenger seat.

[TonyHSD]

If I have any doubts about charging while driving I will buy one of these phone chargers that display voltage too. Plugged in and keep an eye while travelling. I still believe that the 12v Battery itself is the problem and although testing ok in the dealer facility it is very likely a faulty one ( dead cell or sulfated) and not possible to hold charge.
 

[Wooster]

On 8/14/2024 at 8:51 PM, TonyHSD said:

So if we do a lots of short time 10-15min drives and each time we switch off and then on the car we actually drain more power than the inverter is able to recharge...

Although the technology is different, isn't this much the same as a non hybrid car?  200-300 amps to start the ICE, drive for 10 minutes - and you never put back into the Battery what was taken out at the start. 

[TonyHSD]

1 hour ago, Wooster said:

Although the technology is different, isn't this much the same as a non hybrid car?  200-300 amps to start the ICE, drive for 10 minutes - and you never put back into the battery what was taken out at the start. 

Much the same indeed. 
There might not be a starter but there are actuators that draw energy twice for each start up , for each drivers door opening or closing, the ECU’s that run diagnostics, the central locking, the parking brake, the interior lights, alarm, flash lights, home lights, and all other auxiliaries that all are run by the 12v Battery. Definitely not a good idea to challenge the car ability to recharge back the power drawn to power all that stuff.  
For me its because half of my journeys are 1 hr or longer and I do a lots of short stop start drives but I never been worried about Battery. , and my one lasted over 13 years. 

[Red_Corolla]

1 hour ago, Wooster said:

Although the technology is different, isn't this much the same as a non hybrid car?  200-300 amps to start the ICE, drive for 10 minutes - and you never put back into the battery what was taken out at the start. 

It is, except that the actual rotation of the engine to start it isn't powered by the 12v Battery, it's done by the hybrid Battery powering the motor-generator inside the gearbox, with much higher voltage and lower current. 12v Battery still takes time to recharge, though (also done from the hybrid system) due to all of the other consumers that Tony mentioned, as does the hybrid battery itself.

[Cyker]

I strongly suspect alternators charge the 12v at a much higher rate than the DC-DC converter does, and in a more pulse-y fashion than the constant-rate charging the DC-DC does.

[loz8]

Just a thought,  I have been doing this sitting in ready mode lark.    The Exel info screen has a energy feature,which I dont normaly use,however if in ready mode it can also be in drive and energy from hybrid Battery flows to front wheels [still parked] Doesn't the computer isolate hybrid Battery when nearly drained,so it can still restart. Inoticed it didn't take long to drain,ergo it's not charging the 12v any longer,while you sit there thinking it is