Toyota giant mess with energy suppliers charging Tariffs

[Louie]

I have discovered that Toyota refuse to supply energy suppliers such as  Octopus with the Telematics of the fitted Hive charger supplied by British Gas hence vehicles such the CHR PHEV and the B4ZX cannot currently take advantage of the energy supplier's cheapest tariff rates. I am going to talk to Toyota UK customer support today to establish what exactly going on. 

Edited August 23 by Louie
mistake in wording

[Louie]

After contacting Toyota UK EV team they stated that the issue was going to be raised with the technical team in Toyota. However there is still some uncertainty as to the actual compatibility with the Abbterra 3 charger supplied by Hive (British Gas) . 

[forkingabout]

Letting third parties having access to the vehicle telematics can be a serious security risk - that's why Toyota won't allow it.

JLR earlier this year sent out a security update to vehicles that blocked third parties accessing the vehicle telematics.

[Cyker]

Why do Octopus even need that data?? Their job is to supply power on demand, that's all!

[FROSTYBALLS]

Topic moved to General Discussions.

[Big_D]

15 hours ago, forkingabout said:

Letting third parties having access to the vehicle telematics can be a serious security risk - that's why Toyota won't allow it.

JLR earlier this year sent out a security update to vehicles that blocked third parties accessing the vehicle telematics.

Surely giving third-parties, like energy companies, access to telematics is a breach of the Data Protection Act 2018 and the EU GDPR regulations. As @Cyker says, all they need to do is provide electricity. They don't need any telematic information

[AndrueC]

15 hours ago, forkingabout said:

Letting third parties having access to the vehicle telematics can be a serious security risk - that's why Toyota won't allow it.

Maybe they should have expected this to be necessary and designed their systems so that they could control what information was available to each requesting client. The concept of client access restrictions to available information is hardly new.

If Toyota's telematics API is 'all or nothing' then it's badly implemented.

[AndrueC]

11 hours ago, Cyker said:

Why do Octopus even need that data?? Their job is to supply power on demand, that's all!

'Telematics' is a broad term. It can include things that are relatively benign but informative. An example might be the typical distance travelled on a given day. Or typical usage by hour. An even more obvious example would be state of charge.

Octopus already offer customers 'free electricity' sessions (I got 25p of free electricity earlier this months thanks to one of them) so if it had access to BEV usage it could customise such offers.

Knowing those could help an intelligent charger decide to defer charging until a lower cost period.

'Hi Andrue, you don't normally use your car overnight so is it okay if we defer charging until midnight?'

As my previous post states: Having access to 'telematics' shouldn't mean access to everything.

[Primus1]

It always amuses me regarding gdpr, don’t give out your personal data….ever been to collect a prescription anyone?

[AndrueC]

5 minutes ago, Primus1 said:

It always amuses me regarding gdpr, don’t give out your personal data….ever been to collect a prescription anyone?

That's not what GDPR is about, and it doesn't say that we shouldn't give our data to people. GDPR is a framework that gives us control over who has the data and requires those who hold it to restrict usage and accessibility.

GDPR is actually intended to facilitate data exchange and processing by telling people and organisations how to do it safely.

[Mike2222]

11 hours ago, Cyker said:

Why do Octopus even need that data?? Their job is to supply power on demand, that's all!

It's less relevant for PHEVs due to the smaller batteries, but allowing the charger unit (and by extension octopus) to "speak" with the car, the charger/octopus can know the charge state of the car, and this in combination with knowing how much (ie Battery state of charge %) the customer wants the car charged to and by what time, octopus can decide the best time slots for the grid to charge the car. 

 

This might be within the standard off peak window for the tariff, or octopus may prefer to use different time slots if it is better for the grid. Best example is summer evenings last year, when plugging in around 7pm after work, octopus would routing start the charge session immediately rather than waiting until 2330, presumably because there was still loads of solar production knocking around the grid, and a lot of businesses electricity use would have dropped for that day, meaning a surplus on the grid. 

 

Octopus doesn't know how much my Rav is charged, so assumes I will always need a full charge, but if you've got a ~100kwh usable BEV, charging might become a lot more complex, and can potentially be a lot greener if octopus can flexibly pick as little as 15mins on-off slots to balance the grid. 

[Haliotis]

Reading this, I can only say that it further reinforces my decision to keep away from any car that has plug-in charging.

[forkingabout]

2 hours ago, Primus1 said:

It always amuses me regarding gdpr, don’t give out your personal data….ever been to collect a prescription anyone?

Remember collecting one once & another person waiting complained that the person behind counter didn't ask me for my details like they where for other customers.

Person behind counter replied " I've known him since we where both kids, he is friends with my brother's & I've lived next door to him for the last 7 years so no need for me to ask him to confirm his details. " 

[Mike2222]

14 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

Reading this, I can only say that it further reinforces my decision to keep away from any car that has plug-in charging.

Each to their own, but in the example above, my tariff gives me extra off peak hours (for the whole household's electricity use) whenever octopus chooses to charge outside of the normal off peak hours. It's quite convenient to have those evening cheap hours for dinner/cooking etc, and still have the 6 hour overnight cheap window for dishwasher/washing machine etc. 

[Strangely Brown]

5 hours ago, Mike2222 said:

It's less relevant for PHEVs due to the smaller batteries, but allowing the charger unit (and by extension octopus) to "speak" with the car, the charger/octopus can know the charge state of the car, and this in combination with knowing how much (ie battery state of charge %) the customer wants the car charged to and by what time, octopus can decide the best time slots for the grid to charge the car. 

There is no need for access to any "telematics" data to establish the charge state of the car. If that were the case then it would be required at any/all public charging stations too. The desired charge level and the timing thereof is something that is independent of the vehicle. i.e. plug car into carger, establish current charge level (no access to any uniquely identifying data required), start charging at desired time to get best rate, stop charging when desired level reached.

To say that the energy company needs access to telematics data is patently nonsense.

[Cyker]

7 hours ago, AndrueC said:

'Telematics' is a broad term. It can include things that are relatively benign but informative. An example might be the typical distance travelled on a given day. Or typical usage by hour. An even more obvious example would be state of charge.

Octopus already offer customers 'free electricity' sessions (I got 25p of free electricity earlier this months thanks to one of them) so if it had access to BEV usage it could customise such offers.

Knowing those could help an intelligent charger decide to defer charging until a lower cost period.

'Hi Andrue, you don't normally use your car overnight so is it okay if we defer charging until midnight?'

As my previous post states: Having access to 'telematics' shouldn't mean access to everything.

That's all well and good if you just plugged your car in to charge, but if you set SPECIFIC TIMES for it to charge already, e.g. to coincide with the 4 hour super-cheap night rate on some Octopus tariffs, why would they need telematics to tell them?

This stuff should be optional and it makes no sense that they require telematics to enable you to charge when the rates are cheapest.

 

7 hours ago, Mike2222 said:

It's less relevant for PHEVs due to the smaller batteries, but allowing the charger unit (and by extension octopus) to "speak" with the car, the charger/octopus can know the charge state of the car, and this in combination with knowing how much (ie battery state of charge %) the customer wants the car charged to and by what time, octopus can decide the best time slots for the grid to charge the car. 

 

This might be within the standard off peak window for the tariff, or octopus may prefer to use different time slots if it is better for the grid. Best example is summer evenings last year, when plugging in around 7pm after work, octopus would routing start the charge session immediately rather than waiting until 2330, presumably because there was still loads of solar production knocking around the grid, and a lot of businesses electricity use would have dropped for that day, meaning a surplus on the grid. 

 

Octopus doesn't know how much my Rav is charged, so assumes I will always need a full charge, but if you've got a ~100kwh usable BEV, charging might become a lot more complex, and can potentially be a lot greener if octopus can flexibly pick as little as 15mins on-off slots to balance the grid. 

This sounds like just the thin end of the wedge for 'Smart Grid' which will mean they get to pick whether you get a charge or not and when, and if the car supports V2G even possibly pull charge from the car instead of charging it, before putting it back later at a cheaper rate... except you suddenly need the car for an emergency and you know it had 60% but suddenly it's only got 20%.

 

Regardless, it shouldn't be required when YOU are the one telling them when you want to charge the car or not.

They absolutely don't need to know any of this as YOU know, and YOU can see the live variable rates if you're on that service and can set the car to charge when it drops below a certain threshold with a suitable charger - I can't see any scenario where Octopus *needs* this information sent back to them to allow smart and/or dynamic charging.

 

[Mike2222]

6 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

There is no need for access to any "telematics" data to establish the charge state of the car. If that were the case then it would be required at any/all public charging stations too. The desired charge level and the timing thereof is something that is independent of the vehicle. i.e. plug car into carger, establish current charge level (no access to any uniquely identifying data required), start charging at desired time to get best rate, stop charging when desired level reached.

To say that the energy company needs access to telematics data is patently nonsense.

Not trying to get into a d!ck-swinging contest here, but your understanding is flawed/incorrect. Most public charging stations for BEV vehicles are so called "rapid" or "ultra rapid" and these are DC chargers, using CCS or Chademo connections. These use entirely different communication protocols, because the inverter is on the charging unit side of the transaction. 

 

Home charging is using a type 2 connection, and the wall box is effectively a fancy plug providing AC, with the on board inverter-charger unit being on the vehicle side of the interaction. The inverter changes AC housing supply into DC for storage in the traction Battery. If the manufacturer hasn't shared the vehicle API information with the wallbox manufacturer, then the connection is somewhat dumb, and simply assumes 0% state of charge, and will make the full kW rate available whenever it is live/connected (or in octopus' case, whenever the scheduling allows), although the BMS bottlenecks this as you get closer to 100% (just as it would with rapid charging in a BEV at a public station too) 

[Mike2222]

5 hours ago, Cyker said:

Smart Grid' which will mean they get to pick whether you get a charge or not and when, and if the car supports V2G even possibly pull charge from the car instead of charging it, before putting it back later at a cheaper rate... except you suddenly need the car for an emergency and you know it had 60% but suddenly it's only got 20%.

I think this sort of exists already, to some degree, tho not 100% certain it's active in the UK. I recall reading about Tesla setting up a "virtual power plant" system with one of the energy companies for customers with a car and a powerwall home Battery system. Cannot recall if the car could be drained or just the Battery, but the idea was you could have local/neighborhood level grid balancing, if you had enough power walls. Ie Johnny at number 63 wants to charge his car at 6pm, but I don't need mine until 9am, so rather than pull from the main grid at peak time, the energy is "shared", in that my powerwall discharges at 6pm at the same rate as Johnny's car charges, until such time as the grid demand drops, then overnight my powerwall and car charge up when the grid is less stressed, and I get some kind of credit for being the supplier. 

 

I don't have a tesla or powerwall, so don't hold me to that, but that's the general gist of it. 

[Mike2222]

5 hours ago, Cyker said:

except you suddenly need the car for an emergency and you know it had 60% but suddenly it's only got 20%.

I believe customers were able to set their own personalised thresholds for what state of charge they were willing to "share" up to, and the system you never override this to leave you in the lurch. 

 

5 hours ago, Cyker said:

YOU know, and YOU can see the live variable rates if you're on that service and can set the car to charge when it drops below a certain threshold

I don't believe this is as easy/user friendly as you're implying, or at least not with the current user interfaces. People who use octopus agile get daily updates for the following day's hourly window prices. To do all the planning manually on a daily basis would be an enormous ballache, to the point where if that was the only option I'd probably be going back to an ICE! Octopus Intelligent Go breaks down the charging slots to as little as 15min intervals, so go full user control would be 4x more painstaking. You also could not simply have an option for "I'd accept anything below 15p/kWh", for example (or whatever other price you'd like), and leave it to automate around this, because there's no guarantee on agile that you would have enough windows to adequately charge. That scenario would be even more of a pot luck than your postulated dystopian charging future!