Yaris Cross mystery that does not turn off the engine

[Aldino]

43 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

You can use your Carista adapter with hybrid assistant app on android or dr Prius and check what happens with your hybrid battery.
How it is charging or discharging , what is the different voltage between the cells, resistance and you can also run a life test etc.  

Here an example from my car when I had a bad hybrid battery and the car stationary keep the engine running constantly to charge and discharge to try to equalise the cells but cell number 9 seemed dead.  On the video and the picture with v shaped cells resistant diagram, then the picture after new battery was installed, totally different numbers, graphics and car behaviour.
These cars run engine more often than usual in these particular scenarios like when too hot or too cold, when engine needs to be warmed up, or when it’s cold outskirts and battery is too cold too , the system uses the power from the engine to take less stress onto the battery . 

22928980-45E1-41F8-9614-D515038E2724.MOV

Thank you for the advice. My car is only 9 months old and the hybrid battery is fine. I have been to Toyota and they would have noticed something when they diagnosed my car. There are no errors on the car diagnosis  It annoys me because Toyota does not know the reason why the engine does not turn off if you often drive for short drives of up to 15-20 minutes. I take my foot  by speed 80 km ,off the gas, the engine is still running .When I stop at a traffic light, the engine shuts off. If I drive 40 minutes on the highway, it doesn't happen again this mystery for about 2-3 weeks. 

[ThomasL]

Still sounds like normal GPF regen to me but I don't drive Yaris

[Aldino]

13 hours ago, ThomasL said:

Still sounds like normal GPF regen to me but I don't drive Yaris

Thomas, which Hybrid do you have, so you also think that it is a GPF-Filter regeneration. 

[ThomasL]

M20A-FXS. Before that 2ZR-FXE without GPF. I notice GPF regenerating, if been using car on shorter journeys.

The M15A-FXE does have a GPF doesn't it?

Tony's point about 12V Battery is interesting, you could install brand new 12V Battery for about €70 if you're concerned about it. It would rule it out at least.

[hind]

42 minutes ago, ThomasL said:

The M15A-FXE does have a GPF doesn't it?

Yep, https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/20-08-01_faq_df_r3_en.htm

[TonyHSD]

This gpf is fitted to all hybrids since 2010 gen 3, or is it not, or perhaps it is indeed but without any differential pressure sensor ? 
Also in the official material shared above is explained when a regeneration will be needed or a problem arises it will be a engine fault code displayed and invitation to visit a dealer. 
Also it is explained that in normal conditions there is enough hot temperature from exhaust gases to burn any soot accumulation. I have noted cat temperature on Carista while driving 600C° and more. 
Here an exhaust from Auris hybrid 2010 . So obvious a gpf filter. This is what actually thieves are stealing from the cars, cat and gpf combo. 

They cut where is the factory welding on the picture just before the middle silencer. 
For your cars and when engine is running more often and longer is because of the batteries , both 12v and the hybrid one. 

Even in ideal conditions, after a 40-60 min journey in hot and sunny days with relatively full hybrid Battery when moving of the line at junction or traffic lights with light accelerator push ⚠️if you use your AC ⚠️the petrol engine will fire up and push the car forward just to preserve Battery power for later use to drive the car when less energy is needed while coasting within speed limits in ev only and for the ac use too. If you repeat this start of the line with AC off the petrol engine will remain off, because the hybrid Battery will not be fully loaded and it will be easier to push the car on ev alone. 
 

All tested, by the Toyota engineers and designed to work beautifully for efficiency, longevity and smooth drive. No warning lights, no issues with these cars. Just drive them more and you will learn more and be relaxed. 👍

 

[hind]

39 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Here an exhaust from Auris hybrid 2010 . So obvious a gpf filter

I think that's just catalytic converter. 

[flash22]

GPF is on the 19 onwards Corolla and 2020 onwards Yaris, hybrids before that used a secondary cat (unmonitored)

[YarisHybrid2016]

If you run ANY car on lots of short journeys, always make a point to take it out for a longer run at the weekend. Get it up to temperature first, then drive it a bit harder/faster than you would normally. A good blast down the motorway is enough.

My car does far too many short journeys, but I'm sure to give it a run out on the motorway for a couple of hours. My previous car seemed to do fine with such "preventative driving". Only time will tell how my current car will do.

The brakes are yet again showing themselves to be the area of concern. I really hammered them a few days ago and they were nice and shiny again.

Despite my fairly aggressive driving style, I'm quite light on the brakes, and with this wet weather and wide open alloy wheel design, they are rather prone to corrosion. More wheel covers are needed.

[ThomasL]

Would I be correct in my understanding that the GPF can be thought of as a catalytic converter with a sensor to tell the engine computer "send some hot exhaust gases please, I need to burn some particulates"?

What's the waste products of that burn? Do they then move downstream and get caught in the catalytic converter?

[hind]

Have a read 🙂 https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/19-09-10_faq_gpf_eng.htm

[ThomasL]

Thanks... so I'm wrong it's not exhaust gases it's just hot air that gets sent down and burns off the matter... And I think one of the diagrams shows GPF after catalytic converter.

When I believe it's regenerating is when I see "1000 rpm" on rev counter even though foot is off throttle but MPG is "99.9" i.e. not using any fuel, engine is basically "off".

The "charging battery" revs is different, more like 1250-1400 rpm and MPG drops and engine is definitely on.

So OP are you seeing similar? Or does your instantaneous fuel consumption number (not average consumption) go up when you're suffering this issue every few weeks?

[trashman1965]

17 minutes ago, ThomasL said:

Thanks... so I'm wrong it's not exhaust gases it's just hot air that gets sent down and burns off the matter... And I think one of the diagrams shows GPF after catalytic converter.

When I believe it's regenerating is when I see "1000 rpm" on rev counter even though foot is off throttle but MPG is "99.9" i.e. not using any fuel, engine is basically "off".

The "charging battery" revs is different, more like 1250-1400 rpm and MPG drops and engine is definitely on.

So OP are you seeing similar? Or does your instantaneous fuel consumption number (not average consumption) go up when you're suffering this issue every few weeks?

Pretty sure that is actually when it's spinning the engine to dump excess charging current either down hill or under braking. Now that might have a regenerative effect due to air being pushed through.

[ThomasL]

I think the Battery is only on 3 or 4 bars when it does it but perhaps I'm wrong.

[trashman1965]

8 minutes ago, ThomasL said:

I think the battery is only on 3 or 4 bars when it does it but perhaps I'm wrong.

In "B" or using downshift on flappy paddle on 2 litre? Both those will spin the engine but no fuel. Mind you closed throttle at reasonable speed would make it seem zero fuel being used.

[ThomasL]

Just normal D mode cruising at 60ish for brief time. I'll double check Battery levels next time. I don't think I've seen it at 30, and I'd guess I wouldn't because not enough air flow to regen at that speed(?)

I've never had the warning message on screen so the GPF is doing its job fine.

[TonyHSD]

The gpf is indeed a catalytic converter which is monitored by a pressure sensor. 
The previous generations as I shared my picture is pretty much exactly that , a second cat which is a sort of non monitored gpf. Both exhaust devices has similar structures but they serve slightly different purpose. Cat converts harmful chemicals into less harmful and water as byproduct where the gpf collects tiny particles and eventually burns them. 
Either way what latest models hybrids owners experience is exactly the same as I did experience when I had bad batteries or when the car was not used a lot and on a short town trips only.
Two very different generations hybrids with exactly the same behaviour. 

[Cyker]

4 hours ago, ThomasL said:

Would I be correct in my understanding that the GPF can be thought of as a catalytic converter with a sensor to tell the engine computer "send some hot exhaust gases please, I need to burn some particulates"?

What's the waste products of that burn? Do they then move downstream and get caught in the catalytic converter?

It's virtually the same thing as a DPF, the horrible thing in modern diesels that single-handedly turned them from being the most reliable kind of engine to the least.

It's designed to catch particulate matter, i.e. soot, which is understandable with a diesel but makes no sense to me with petrol. You can make an argument for it with direct-injected stratified combustion petrols, but definitely not on a port-injected petrol like the Yaris Mk4's engine! I really don't understand why it's a thing, as I'm pretty sure my brakes and tyres produce more particulate matter than my engine does! Heck, I reckon me walking in my boots and scratching my head produces more particulate matter than the engine does!

My theory on why B-mode 'fixes' it, is that it pumps fresh air through the hot exhaust, which allows the particulates to be burned off.

Petrol engines have the opposite problem from diesels when it comes to (G/D)PFs - Diesels run very lean, so lots of oxygen in the exhaust, but because the cycle is naturally very efficient, the exhaust temps are much lower, typically 200-300 degrees colder than petrol engines, so diesel people have to really load up the engine and make it work hard to get it hot enough to set fire to the particulates or spray diesel into the exhaust and hope it's hot enough to set that alight first (Which is stupid if you think about it).

Petrol OTOH tends to have very hot exhaust temps so the GPF is hot enough to burn all the time without needing to e.g. spray fuel into the exhaust like you do with diesel (Although the Max Power crowd might want that  ), but because it runs at a perfect air-fuel mix ratio, there's no spare oxygen for it to burn off the particulates. Under normal circumstances, the ECU should tell the engine to run leaner so that there's enough left-over oxygen to burn off the particulates, but I find that, left to its own devices, the hybrids will regen for ages trying to do it that way. Sticking it in B-mode means the engine is blasting un-combusted fresh air into the exhaust which should be enough to burn it all off, and I find on mine at least it makes it finish the GPF regen-cycle much quicker.

 

[Aldino]

4 hours ago, ThomasL said:

I think the battery is only on 3 or 4 bars when it does it but perhaps I'm wrong.

You were wrong 

[Aldino]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

It's virtually the same thing as a DPF, the horrible thing in modern diesels that single-handedly turned them from being the most reliable kind of engine to the least.

It's designed to catch particulate matter, i.e. soot, which is understandable with a diesel but makes no sense to me with petrol. You can make an argument for it with direct-injected stratified combustion petrols, but definitely not on a port-injected petrol like the Yaris Mk4's engine! I really don't understand why it's a thing, as I'm pretty sure my brakes and tyres produce more particulate matter than my engine does! Heck, I reckon me walking in my boots and scratching my head produces more particulate matter than the engine does!

My theory on why B-mode 'fixes' it, is that it pumps fresh air through the hot exhaust, which allows the particulates to be burned off.

Petrol engines have the opposite problem from diesels when it comes to (G/D)PFs - Diesels run very lean, so lots of oxygen in the exhaust, but because the cycle is naturally very efficient, the exhaust temps are much lower, typically 200-300 degrees colder than petrol engines, so diesel people have to really load up the engine and make it work hard to get it hot enough to set fire to the particulates or spray diesel into the exhaust and hope it's hot enough to set that alight first (Which is stupid if you think about it).

Petrol OTOH tends to have very hot exhaust temps so the GPF is hot enough to burn all the time without needing to e.g. spray fuel into the exhaust like you do with diesel (Although the Max Power crowd might want that  ), but because it runs at a perfect air-fuel mix ratio, there's no spare oxygen for it to burn off the particulates. Under normal circumstances, the ECU should tell the engine to run leaner so that there's enough left-over oxygen to burn off the particulates, but I find that, left to its own devices, the hybrids will regen for ages trying to do it that way. Sticking it in B-mode means the engine is blasting un-combusted fresh air into the exhaust which should be enough to burn it all off, and I find on mine at least it makes it finish the GPF regen-cycle much quicker.

 

B mode definitely helps. I don't know if it's harmful to drive in B mode. Yesterday I drove for 4 km and pressed and took away the gas. 

[Cyker]

It's not, it just wastes energy and fuel but is otherwise fine. Also ThomasL wasn't talking to you.

[Aldino]

Guys, what is your opinion on whether the engine oil has an effect on the GPF filter. I changed the oil in the Yaris Cross at 2000 km and I put in 0w16 Mobil. The recommended oil for this car is 0w8  

[Cyker]

Practically none. You don't even need to use low-ash oil like you do with diesels!

[RickyC]

On 10/6/2024 at 1:49 PM, Aldino said:

On 10/6/2024 at 12:56 PM, TonyHSD said:

You can use your Carista adapter with hybrid assistant app on android or dr Prius and check what happens with your hybrid battery.
How it is charging or discharging , what is the different voltage between the cells, resistance and you can also run a life test etc.  

Here an example from my car when I had a bad hybrid battery and the car stationary keep the engine running constantly to charge and discharge to try to equalise the cells but cell number 9 seemed dead.  On the video and the picture with v shaped cells resistant diagram, then the picture after new battery was installed, totally different numbers, graphics and car behaviour.
These cars run engine more often than usual in these particular scenarios like when too hot or too cold, when engine needs to be warmed up, or when it’s cold outskirts and battery is too cold too , the system uses the power from the engine to take less stress onto the battery . 

22928980-45E1-41F8-9614-D515038E2724.MOV 239.17 MB · 2 downloads

Thank you for the advice. My car is only 9 months old and the hybrid battery is fine. I have been to Toyota and they would have noticed something when they diagnosed my car. There are no errors on the car diagnosis  It annoys me because Toyota does not know the reason why the engine does not turn off if you often drive for short drives of up to 15-20 minutes. I take my foot  by speed 80 km ,off the gas, the engine is still running .When I stop at a traffic light, the engine shuts off. If I drive 40 minutes on the highway, it doesn't happen again this mystery for about 2-3 weeks. 

Surely bad Battery is not the main issue.  In Italy a lot of users complained about this issue after 6-700 Km yet on MY20 Yaris IV.

I too have this problem on my Yaris and I've found that a solution is do some ( usually 3 ) fast accelerations and repentine releases when ICE is warm ( at least 3 tabs on temperature gauge ).  

 In Italy in 2021, Toyota technicians installed a data recorder on some voulenteers' cars.  They told that gathered data was sent to Toyota R&D but everything seems fallen in a black hole.  

I've found that the issue is more frequent when air humidity is high.

 

 

[TonyHSD]

8 minutes ago, RickyC said:

Surely bad battery is not the main issue.  In Italy a lot of users complained about this issue after 6-700 Km yet on MY20 Yaris IV.

I too have this problem on my Yaris and I've found that a solution is do some ( usually 3 ) fast accelerations and repentine releases when ICE is warm ( at least 3 tabs on temperature gauge ).  

 In Italy in 2021, Toyota technicians installed a data recorder on some voulenteers' cars.  They told that gathered data was sent to Toyota R&D but everything seems fallen in a black hole.  

I've found that the issue is more frequent when air humidity is high.

 

 

No arguing here.
Perhaps some misunderstanding about my Battery explanation here. 
We don’t need to have a bad Battery, these cars are too new for that. 
However when you drive only on short trips like less than 20 min each , the traction Battery cells deviation can not be equalised, one or two cells will be at lower or higher voltage in comparison to the rest of the pack and this is not ok for long term battery health.
The battery control unit needs to run a few charge and discharge cycles to minimise any cells deviation and makes the pack voltages very similar.
To conduct that process the ecu keeps engine constantly running and doing so the engine fully charges  the battery then discharges the battery and keep repeating that until battery management is happy with the results and it will revert back to normal engine operation. All these processes usually happens behind the curtains while driving on motorways or with each charging and discharging cycle of the hybrid battery. 

You have almost a new cars , there is no chance you have bad battery or clogged gpf, and if you were unlucky to have one a warning light would have appear on dashboard, gpf is monitored by a sensor and ecu. 
When you drive short trips only there is no enough time the hybrid system to maintain its processes and equalised battery cells, regenerate gpf if this ever happens as been shown from official documents shared here, there is no need of gpf regeneration as a specific process, very different from dpf. 
I will not trust what dealers says at all. And won’t take anything from them as a true statement as often they create nonsense stories just to pleased unhappy customers, when they have no better explanation of the problem.