Starter pinion not engaging 2014 Yaris Mk3 D4D

[brutus-1965]

2014 Yaris Mk3 D4D

I am very mechanically competent.

Excellent Battery.

For the first time tonight the starter didnt engage.

From the drivers seat it sounds like the starter is spinning but the solenoid plunger has not thrown out the pinion to engage the flywheel.

As I pushed the clutch peddle down and up a couple of times the plunger did eventually throw and engage the flywheel so it started.

Question is - where is the starter on the 1.4 D (any YouTube video) and has anyone experienced this before.

TIA

[southsider46]

The starter can't be spinning unless the pinion has been thrown out. 

When the starter solenoid throws the pinion out, the starter circuit is complete and then it will start to turn.

video

[brutus-1965]

Thanks.

Definately sounds like the starter is spinning when the key is turned. Maybe I need to get a helper to turn the key while I have a poke and listen. Is the starter accessed from the engine bay or underneath ?

[Red_Corolla]

On a vehicle with transverse engine and manual gearbox, it's usually either on top of the gearbox or round the back. If removing the airbox doesn't reveal it then try getting underneath and looking up from below the steering rack. Do NOT forget to disconnect the Battery negative before introducing the spanners.

[brutus-1965]

From serching the web it is at the front accessed from the top. Sods law says this morning it will start every time I try, but I will still remove it, give it a clean up and a little oil on the pinion and back together again making sure the cables are secure.

And yes to disconnect the Battery first; nothing like accidentally touching the main cable against earth to make a spark and for you to REACT !

[MikeSh]

11 hours ago, southsider46 said:

The starter can't be spinning unless the pinion has been thrown out. 

When the starter solenoid throws the pinion out, the starter circuit is complete and then it will start to turn.

video

That assumes it is a pre-engage starter. I'd expect it is but if it's a Bendix type them this is a common problem. 

For a pre-engage it's possible perhaps for the linkage to the pinion to have a problem like the hinge point coming adrift. The solenoid would them pull the contacts but the arm wouldn't see-saw. Odd that it works again after a while though in that case. 

 

11 hours ago, brutus-1965 said:

it sounds like the starter is spinning

Sure it's not something else, like a fuel pump?

[southsider46]

3 hours ago, MikeSh said:

That assumes it is a pre-engage starter.

It's a pre-engaged starter.

[brutus-1965]

So today after repairing my trailer I set to on the Yaris starter.

Luckily when I tried to start up the engine the starter did not crank the engine over but after about 3 - 5 attempts it did. On the times it did not crank I could still hear what I can only decribe as a free spinning starter (as if it were on the bench) and no contact with the flywheel. On one occasion it did sound like a poor Battery and although the Battery was in good shape I decided I would replace the battrery anyway as it is maybe 5 years old and winter is on the way. So off to Halfords I trot and come back with a Yuasa Battery.

I wasn't convinced it was the battery but decided to replace anyway.

Battery fitted and on the first crank the starter engaged, second crank the starter engaged, success I thought but on the third crank (you guessed it) the starter did not engage. Time was getting on a bit now so I decided to put the airbox back in and close the bonnet for the night.

Googled the differences in starters and found the following which is quite informative and confirms the Yaris has a pre-engaged >>> https://youtu.be/ITFW2PkqXWw and another one >>> https://youtu.be/mdwRFUYli1o

My conclusion is that the starter is U/S and is simply spinning but the solenoid is not 'levering' the pinion onto the flywheel. What puzzles me is I would have thought the solnoid is not meant to 'switch' on the current until the pinion is on the fly wheel teeth.

I think that given most parts nowadays are not really servicable the best and easiest solution is to replace the starter, BUT I think what I will do tomorrow before I order a replacement is get the starter off the car and onto the bench and see why the pinion is not levering onto the flywheel. Hoping I dont find any damaged bits !

Does anyone have any other suggestions ?

[Cyker]

Posts like this seems to come up now and then, with the starter getting stuck. Often giving the starter a gentle tap or two with a mallet can free up the mechanism

 

[MikeSh]

16 minutes ago, brutus-1965 said:

What puzzles me is I would have thought the solnoid is not meant to 'switch' on the current until the pinion is on the fly wheel teeth.

As I suggested earlier, it could be a fault with the lever. Usually the iron core of the solenoid is attached to a lever that has a fork at the other end to move the pinion and which rocks around a central pivot. The other end of the solenoid core pushes the heavy electrical contacts together to energise the motor. In normal operation the contacts make after the fork has pushed the pinion into the flywheel. 

If the lever/bearing/fork is damaged or deformed then the pinion may not be getting moved, or not enough before the contacts make - at which point the core can't move any further. Another possibility is the contacts are making too early and preventing the core from travelling its full distance - but I can't think of a way that could happen ... unless the core has broken in two perhaps. ?!

It'll be interesting to hear what you find.

[brutus-1965]

13 minutes ago, Cyker said:

giving the starter a gentle tap or two with a mallet can free up the mechanism

 

I dont think this is the case here as the pinion is sometimes making contact with the flywheel. It might be sticking but until I get it out and on the bench tomorrow I wont know for sure.

[brutus-1965]

18 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

It'll be interesting to hear what you find.

Tomorrow.

I am so used to working on bigger 4x4 engines in bigger engine bays that I am not looking forward to getting my big hands around the starter which for information is between the engine and radiator and positioned centrally.

Once the airbox is out and the electrics disconnected it is a case of getting a socket on the bolt heads and wiggle it free.

[brutus-1965]

Trying to be polite here but what a tight confined space that starter sits in !!!!

I started by removing the airbox and then disconnecting the Battery and removing it.

Locate the 2x 14mm starter securing bolts, one from nearside towards the centre of the engine bay and the other from the centre of the engine bay towards the nearside but don't undo them yet.

Disconnect the heavy duty main cable by flicking the cover off and unbolting it, I think it was 13mm. Move the cable to one side.

Remove the solenoid actuation wire (very fiddly).

You would now be tempted to unbolt the starter and try to wiggle it free, but you are wasting your time.

What you need to do is remove the lower rubber intercooler securing clip from the pipe and push the pipe to nearside / gearbox.

Remove the sensor wire on the intercooler steel pipe and move it to one side.

Remove the top and bottom clips from the short rubber pipe (about 50mm long) above thie steel pipe and push the short rubber pipe down onto the steel pipe (the one with the sensor in it).

If you are lucky you may be able to get a 10mm socket on the securing nut holding the steel pipe to the block but if you cant just gently push the pipe to the off side.

Remove the two starter securing bolts and gently tap the starter free from it's mating surface.

You now have enough room to wiggle the starter out and twist / wiggle to the near side and up from where the air box was.

[brutus-1965]

Bench tested the starter with the original Battery I took out of the car.

Using jumper cables and having the starter clamped in the vice I connected the +ve Battery to the starter large supply bolt.

Connected a decent gauge wire to the solenoid spade terminal and the other end to the +ve Battery.

Connected the -ve jumper lead to the vice and help the other end held in my hand ready to touch the -ve of the battery.

Every touch of the -ve jumper to the battery resulted in a proper throw of the pinion cog and spin up of the starter. I must have done this 25 times and it worked as it should.

So the dilema was i) do I put eveything back together again and hope it just works or ii) order a replacement starter and wait a few days for it to arrive and then put it all back together.

I decided on option ii) as sods law says when it all goes back it wont work. At least by replacing the starter I will have a working starter and if it didnt work I can then look elsewhere. I know £££ but I would rather be confident the starter works when I (or my wife) is out and about as winter is just around the corner.

PS - no injuries or grazed knuckles and no broken car parts so today was a win win day 🙂

[Cyker]

Might have been a misalignment with the flywheel or something then??

Or the cogs are worn and not contacting properly? Or a mix of both?

[brutus-1965]

3 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Might have been a misalignment with the flywheel or something then??

Or the cogs are worn and not contacting properly? Or a mix of both?

Maybe but the teeth on the flywheel look in very good condition and there hasnt been any grinding at all. Either way the car can wait for the replacement starter later this week.

[southsider46]

One of the benefits of a pre-engaged starter over an inertia starter is that they don't wear the teeth away.

[Cyker]

2 hours ago, brutus-1965 said:

Maybe but the teeth on the flywheel look in very good condition and there hasnt been any grinding at all. Either way the car can wait for the replacement starter later this week.

Well let us know if you figure out the cause, it's not a common thing with the D4Ds.

Hope the replacement fixes it!

[brutus-1965]

Update time.

Replacement starter arrived today from a national vehicle dismantlers and I thought prior to fitting it I would bench test it. Suffice to say the outside condition and the warranty of the item had no resemblence on the workings of the starter. At bench test time while the pinion engaged nicely the rotation of the starter was painfully slow drawing way too much current even making the jumper cables warm! The replacement unit wasn't going to get fitted as it simply wouldn't do the job so it's going back to the seller for a refund.

Given I need the car this coming weekend and the original starter was just temperamental I bench tested it again and it still worked every time. I decided to refit the original knowing how easy it would be to get back in and remove should I need to if it didn't miraculously work. So having refitted it I turned the key and it started first time, but after several tests it failed again.

So now I am at the position where the original starter worked every time on the bench but not every time in the car. What could be the cause ?

Having thought about possible araes to look at next I wonder IF the starter is spinning up but the solenoid is not throwing out so later tonight I plan to pop the solenoid actuator wire off the back of the solenoid and turn the ignition on. In theory it shouldn't do anything, right ?

If that doesn't prove fruitful it will need a new starter regardless.

Another area I am thinking is the clutch switch and/or ignition switch; does anyone have a link to a wiring diagram for these ?

TIA

[Jasper.]

Why not try putting a jump lead from the Battery negative to the body of the starter to see if that makes any difference  ? It would eliminate the problem of a bad earth. 

 

 

[brutus-1965]

26 minutes ago, Jasper. said:

Why not try putting a jump lead from the battery negative to the body of the starter to see if that makes any difference  ? It would eliminate the problem of a bad earth.

I'll try that tomorrow afternoon although the earth (and live) connections at the Battery are good. The earth cable I had removed from the block behind the intercooler also looked good and clean. But I will try a seperate earth cable too.

Just now I popped the solenoid cable off and as you would have guessed the whole starter was dead which to me suggests the solenoid is working but still not always throwing the pinion. I also connected up a test lamp to check there was 12v at the solenoid wire and there is. I now wonder if it might even be a low current issue having enough to connect the main starter power terminals but not enough to throw the pinion cog (if you get what I mean).

Tomorrow I might also try connecting a small spade connector on a decent gauge wire onto the back of the solenoid and giving that direct 12v from the Battery. In theory that should activate the solenoid, throw the pinion and crank the starter. If it does my fault lies in the 12v to solenoid. If it doesnt then it MUST be the starter.

There is definately enough power to spin the starter over and start the car when it works.

Enough for tonight and I need the car tomorrow so it is now out of the garage and would you believe it the starter worked every time. BTW when it does spin up but not throw the pinion if I cycle the iginition a couple of times it kicks in and works although I dont think that means the ignition switch or clutch switch as they are just simple switches to send 12v to the solenoid.

Any other suggestions ?

[southsider46]

1 hour ago, brutus-1965 said:

the starter is spinning up but the solenoid is not throwing

No, that can't happen.

Sometimes, the big contacts inside the solendoid burn with the arcing, causing the motor to be lazy when spinning.

[brutus-1965]

On 10/9/2024 at 8:34 PM, southsider46 said:

No, that can't happen.

Sometimes, the big contacts inside the solendoid burn with the arcing, causing the motor to be lazy when spinning.

Update time:

I refitted everything and made sure all connections and earth straps were clean and tight.

On the first turn of the key everything worked but after repeated attempts eventually it failed again. The sympton being the same as earlier where the pinion is spinning but not being thrown out to the fly wheel. A quick release of the clutch pedal (for the switch) or a off/on of the ignotion switch and that normally allowed the engine to turn over and start. This went on for a week or so and then it kind of stopped being an issue and since then the starter has worked as it should without exception.

So as the starter is back to 100% working I can say I have no idea what happened, what went wrong, or what changed for it to work again. They say every day is a school day so I can safely say I have learnt how to remove and refit the starter with minimum fuss 🙂