No change to the RAV, no new model in 2025

[Nick72]

5 minutes ago, Cyker said:

It's partly because I really want an EV, even more so now I've had a taste of their potential from the Yaris hybrid (Which has also raised the bar of expectation considerably!), but there is so much that is deficient with them right now and it feels like everyone is going in the wrong direction instead of improving the important stuff that would make them good.

If Nick's hypothetical scenario was the case, where there was a Yaris that was exactly like my hybrid but an EV, I'd totally get one! Alas we're a looong way off from that right now. It's starting to become a parody of nuclear fusion, i.e. it's always 10 years away  

5 years 😂

[GBgraham]

I feel this discussion is getting to broadly fragmented into to many different categories. Just because some don't agree with others they either come out with juvenile comments or post laughing or confused emoji's. 

Here is one bit of news that I have been shot down about by some of you saying it will never happen, well there's bigger than you out there that seems to think different. 

https://unionrayo.com/us/confirmed-bmw-toyota-team-up/

 

 

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, GBgraham said:

I feel this discussion is getting to broadly fragmented into to many different categories. Just because some don't agree with others they either come out with juvenile comments or post laughing or confused emoji's. 

Here is one bit of news that I have been shot down about by some of you saying it will never happen, well there's bigger than you out there that seems to think different. 

https://unionrayo.com/us/confirmed-bmw-toyota-team-up/

 

 

Don't get me wrong I understand your opinions, just disagree with the details but do appreciate the sentiment. Not saying I'm right either. Just another set of opinions.

Been following Toyota's and now BMWs efforts here. It's worth the experiment but I'm highly doubtful it will succeed. It is interesting to note that the Toyota leadership has said switchover to EVs will cause huge job losses in the industry. I guess this is a reference to the component make up of EVs and how the high value components are made by others. In other words, the work share plummets for the automotive manufacturers. This should be ringing alarm bells about motivations which aren't necessarily driven in the favour of consumers. It's about empire protection and finding a way to preserve it. 

[philip42h]

2 hours ago, GBgraham said:

Here is one bit of news that I have been shot down about by some of you saying it will never happen, well there's bigger than you out there that seems to think different.

This story from a more credible source: Toyota Motor Corporation and BMW Group Strengthen Collaboration Towards the Advancement of a Hydrogen Society

You can read it for yourselves, but the bottom line is:

Quote

Moving forward, we will continue to address the needs of customers in each region by focusing on a multi-pathway approach that includes FCEV, BEV, HEV, and PHEV options, all while steadily working towards reducing CO2 emissions.

 

[philip42h]

... and on batteries: Betting on Batteries That Can Cross the Pacific--Chairman Toyoda's Speech at the Toyota Battery Inauguration Ceremony

[Nick72]

25 minutes ago, philip42h said:

... and on batteries: Betting on Batteries That Can Cross the Pacific--Chairman Toyoda's Speech at the Toyota Battery Inauguration Ceremony

I'd do exactly the same. Hedge my bets and mitigate for the eventuality where EVs could take over.

[MC1216]

6 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

I'd do exactly the same. Hedge my bets and mitigate for the eventuality where EVs could take over.

A bit like Betamax v VHS.🤣

 

[Cyker]

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

I'd do exactly the same. Hedge my bets and mitigate for the eventuality where EVs could take over.

That is the only sensible thing to do, if you have the resources for it!

Toyota have a very diverse research arm, and while their favoured alternative is hydrogen for reasons I don't really understand, they continue to explore many other possibilities.

Don't forget they are one of the leaders in solid-state lithium cell research, which might be enough to make EVs work for normal people, although they've been quieter about it than a lot of other people in that field who promise much but deliver little. They've also looked into ammonia as a potential fuel (Which I hope never goes anywhere!   ), and have previously looked at other alternatives like DME. I suspect they they also have maintained interests in synthetic fuels, bio fuels, etc. just in case there is a U-turn.

 

[philip42h]

24 minutes ago, Cyker said:

and while their favoured alternative is hydrogen for reasons I don't really understand

I don't think that is true - I don't see the evidence ...

Their current favourite to a pure ICE is the hybrid - be it phev or hev. But they still have an Aygo in the UK and diesel powered 'trucks'.

It is, perhaps, worth noting that their other EV is the Proace and that may prove more successful than the bZ4X in the long run because a Proace EV may suit local van deliveries very well. There are over 3,000 Proace EVs on UK roads alongside around 5,700 bZ4Xs.

Toyota were an early proponent of the hydrogen fuel cell and came to market with the Mirai way back in 2015 but that model at least has proved a damp squib. There are only 91 left and not that much by way of hydrogen infrastructure to support them.

The hydrogen fuel cell may prove a viable and good solution for goods haulage. Trucks already carry a large quantity of fuel and hydrogen infrastructure need only be implemented at a modest number of sites.

[GBgraham]

58 minutes ago, philip42h said:

I don't think that is true - I don't see the evidence ...

Their current favourite to a pure ICE is the hybrid - be it phev or hev. But they still have an Aygo in the UK and diesel powered 'trucks'.

It is, perhaps, worth noting that their other EV is the Proace and that may prove more successful than the bZ4X in the long run because a Proace EV may suit local van deliveries very well. There are over 3,000 Proace EVs on UK roads alongside around 5,700 bZ4Xs.

Toyota were an early proponent of the hydrogen fuel cell and came to market with the Mirai way back in 2015 but that model at least has proved a damp squib. There are only 91 left and not that much by way of hydrogen infrastructure to support them.

The hydrogen fuel cell may prove a viable and good solution for goods haulage. Trucks already carry a large quantity of fuel and hydrogen infrastructure need only be implemented at a modest number of sites.

 

[GBgraham]

Guy's please just follow the money, you will not learn or gain from anywhere else such as by believing such propaganda that's being pedalled out there from everywhere, how the hell do you think Marxist two Kier got into power? Lies, Lies and more Lies!

As I stated I don't have a problem with moving away from fossil fuels of which I am sure is not for the ultimate reason of climate change but the lack of abundance of it. Okay for you Doubtful Thomas's  there maybe a little bit of conspiracy theory thrown into the pot here, but mostly only due my sincere doubts.  I am sure that EV's won't be the dominant solution to the problem within the next few years, especially of the rare mineral stripping and the other type of dangers given to the environment. The smarmy money gabbing politicians would love it to be, so they have control over you, your car along with your movements all controlled by themselves and their investments into electricity producing investments, again follow the money of who and where the carpetbaggers have invested.

Sorry about that little sidebar rant. These multi nationals do not waste millions and into billions of cash on whims and they do tend to back the winners because they own the stands, stables, track and make the odds of the day. I don't want to bore folk but look into all the major players out there, but it's just not cars but trucks and plant, The latter in being JCB which has been playing with and developing Hydrogen engines for yonks. and was probably one of the first to become so, but it's because it's just not practical for plant machinery to become electrically driven. Look at Volvo and Scania along with others, they have tried the EV route and it isn't performing for their and their customers needs, For this they are looking at overhead charging and driving. ( have you got this Nick, not quite milk floats but back to akin trolley buses and todays loco's) 

At the end of the day you guys are only thinking about today and what to splash the cash on? My eco life (that's a lie but later) started with a mild hybrid from Kia in 2020, then to a C-HR Hybrid in 2021 and on to the RAV4 PHEV in 2023. The Kia was a blunder and a complete misrepresentation, the C-HR was a super little car but for me the word little was the issue, but I took €200 profit from the new purchase price after circa 2.5 years. (where does this happen?) With all this experience of hybrids plus my long life around ICE's a PHEV was my obvious next and probably last step into the future of what may be called progress. Buying an EV only and I mean only ever flickered a light in me for a second or ten. Okay, I'm a canny, well aged pragmatic Yorkshire man ( or a grumpy old bigoted tight bar steward from up north) but I feel I am well attuned and probably well read to what's in store for the future and EV alone is not at the top of the list, apart from say micro (ish) town cars or Elon's horseless and steerless taxi's which BTW I would not risk my life in one unless they had total control of the whole of the road networks. 

The biggest mistake by (and I'm not sure why except for money and some sort of power thing) the latter and present governments have made the decision to  disregard nuclear power whether being SNR's or larger NPP's. If we had these with there much'o spare electric so we could easily produce Hydrogen cheaply. But no we import electric from France, gas from the USA and oil from anywhere we feel the need, steel now from? probably China? coal from? probably Poland or the Ukraine? and so forth

There's one thing that life with EV's is dramatically change all our ways of life!

Anyway apologies, rant over but here is a bit of future for the H2 DT's below😉

https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/37405994.html

https://www.hgvc.co.uk/news/study-finds-overhead-charging-cables-most-effective-decarbonisation-route/

https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/after-plotting-battery-electric-future-truck-maker-scania-hedges-bets-with-new-hydrogen-vehicles/2-1-1200800?zephr_sso_ott=YwRnAk

https://www.techsciresearch.com/blog/Top-Zero-Emission-Aircraft-Manufacturers-Revolutionizing-Aviation/4529.html#:~:text=Airbus%2C a company leading in,the aviation industry's environmental impact.

[Cyker]

3 hours ago, philip42h said:

I don't think that is true - I don't see the evidence ...

Their current favourite to a pure ICE is the hybrid - be it phev or hev. But they still have an Aygo in the UK and diesel powered 'trucks'.

It is, perhaps, worth noting that their other EV is the Proace and that may prove more successful than the bZ4X in the long run because a Proace EV may suit local van deliveries very well. There are over 3,000 Proace EVs on UK roads alongside around 5,700 bZ4Xs.

Toyota were an early proponent of the hydrogen fuel cell and came to market with the Mirai way back in 2015 but that model at least has proved a damp squib. There are only 91 left and not that much by way of hydrogen infrastructure to support them.

The hydrogen fuel cell may prove a viable and good solution for goods haulage. Trucks already carry a large quantity of fuel and hydrogen infrastructure need only be implemented at a modest number of sites.

I don't think the Proace counts since that is completely not a Toyota, but some horrible french thing in disguise.

Their current priority and favourite, as you say, is hybrids and this will transition to PHEVs - This is all following the plan they laid down 5-10 years ago that I mentioned before. Hydrogen is their 'future tech'.

The evidence is there if you look; Toyota are still selling the Mirai despite its failure sales-wise, but while they have scaled it back a lot - They are realistic and pragmatic if nothing else - They are still ploughing shedloads of money into hydrogen tech and infrastructure behind the scenes as they still strongly believe it will prove to be the superior system. They already retooled a GR Yaris to run on hydrogen and raced it, and are entering into partnerships with many companies to invest in it - BMW was recently mentioned in another thread IIRC.

One thing I am surprised by is they don't seem to have been talking to JCB, who are also piling loads of money into hydrogen research and have some demonstrator diggers running on it as proof-of-concept, as Bamford shares Toyota's skepticism on the suitability of batteries in that role. (I personally think they could just run long umbilical cables on poles into the diggers Evangelion-style  )

Still, I think their solid-state batteries will pay off more than their hydrogen research unless we are able to level-up our space tech enough to extract hydrogen from jupiter and saturn!

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Please return to the topic subject, which was 'No change to the RAV, no new model in 2025'.

[GBgraham]

3 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Please return to the topic subject, which was 'No change to the RAV, no new model in 2025'.

wow thanks,  It's being like pulling hens teeth or using a rake to push back water🤔😂

[FROSTYBALLS]

55 minutes ago, GBgraham said:

wow thanks

That's perfectly OK.

[Nick72]

So, consensus is no BEV RAV4 any time soon😂

[philip42h]

7 hours ago, Nick72 said:

So, consensus is no BEV RAV4 any time soon😂

... apart from the one that we already have! 😉 

[NASY]

I've surprised myself by reading all the posts in this thread and feel I've learned something. The most enlightening piece which made me think is how a PHEV uses the benefits and avoids the drawbacks of the available technology within it a mix made in low stress Nirvana. So on topic certain next RAV is HEV or PHEV and not out. for two years or just after the end of this thread.

[Nick72]

7 hours ago, philip42h said:

... apart from the one that we already have! 😉 

Ah BZabcd4xyz is no RAV though. 

[Nick72]

24 minutes ago, NASY said:

I've surprised myself by reading all the posts in this thread and feel I've learned something. The most enlightening piece which made me think is how a PHEV uses the benefits and avoids the drawbacks of the available technology within it a mix made in low stress Nirvana. So on topic certain next RAV is HEV or PHEV and not out. for two years or just after the end of this thread.

Agreed. Next RAV PHEV may get another 30 to 35 % on the electric range, improved fuel efficiency, new integrated displays in the cockpit, less drab interior, a moon roof that opens longer than a todger, probably more power through a more powerful rear motor. And I think it will get slightly larger. Just looking at the competition really. 

I'm going to be in a choice dilemma in 3 years. Do I buy the GRS PHEV at auction price from our lease company? Do I switch to a new BEV on another company car lease for 3 yrs? Or do I get the new RAV on another company car lease for 3 yrs.

Despite my evangelism for EVs and what I've suggested as an inevitability (not that this reflects everyone's opinions - which is fine) I may end up sticking with PHEVs for a long while yet. I expect Toyota will do the same up until they're taxed and regulated out of the market and have to focus of EVs, hydrogen, olive oil or whatever 😂.

[Cyker]

That is the real difficulty - All this change is driven by legislation and not customer demand and they are at odds with each other, so it's difficult for the manufacturers to know whether to zig or zag!

 

[ernieb]

The range would have to be a ‘real’ 50% more than current for me to change to a full EV. I also have a limited power supply so charging might still be an issue. I can see myself seeing out my motoring days with a PHEV. I’d really ideally want a smaller car than the RAV.

[Nick72]

15 minutes ago, ernieb said:

The range would have to be a ‘real’ 50% more than current for me to change to a full EV. I also have a limited power supply so charging might still be an issue. I can see myself seeing out my motoring days with a PHEV. I’d really ideally want a smaller car than the RAV.

Similar Ernie on the range. It's coming though. Latest BYD does 550 miles (probably 420 real). Not that I'd buy one from BYD.

Probably 5 or 6 years from now when I retire for good I may downsize. Corolla or Yaris cross size. 

 

 

[GBgraham]

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

Similar Ernie on the range. It's coming though. Latest BYD does 550 miles (probably 420 real). Not that I'd buy one from BYD.

Probably 5 or 6 years from now when I retire for good I may downsize. Corolla or Yaris cross size. 

 

 

Are we sure Nick that you're not getting mixed up with kilometres and miles because I don't know of any BYD's that are claiming 550 miles🤔

FYI Toyota are pinning their hopes soon on a 1000km range 

[ernieb]

I think the BYD Seal claims 365miles but the new development BYD PHEV is claiming 1300 miles on tank???