Do I really need a brake fluid change 2nd service?

[r44flyer]

Mazda 2 Hybrid, 2022 plate, 4800 miles

I've noticed services in the last few years dealers have been recommending 'an optional' brake fluid change.
This never used to be the case, as a simple fluid test was done instead.
My Mazda 3 had the recommendation at 3rd year but our Mazda 2 Hybrid now insists on it at 2 years.
It's crept from optional to insisting and "it may affect your warranty should you have a brake claim".

Curious what Toyota recommend for the Yaris generally and what owner's generally think.

 

[jthspace]

Brake fluid is ? hydroscopic (absorbs water) so a 2 year replace isn't unusual. My Mazda MX5 has a 2 year replace requirement as did my Citroën previously. 

[APS]

56 minutes ago, r44flyer said:

what owner's generally think.

I generally think two years is erring on the side of caution and allowing for the most hostile of conditions. There is a difference between your car being stood outdoors all year round or in a heated garage where humidity rarely exceeds 60%.

You could leave it five years and still not suffer catastrophic brake loss while crossing the Alps. But I would say you should definitely get it replaced somewhere between 2-5 years.

[ColinB]

I have my cars serviced according to the manufacturer's service schedules, it's quite common for dealers to recommend additional work at services now though. The cynic in me thinks that this is to top up their shrinking margins. I had a Nissan dealer suggesting additional aircon work and that any problems wouldn't be covered by the manufacturer's warranty - this is part of the reason I now drive a Toyota.... 

[Mojo1010]

My MK3 hybrid was 2 year old when I bought it, don't think it had the brake fluid changed. Owned it for 5 years and did not have the fluid changed, no effect on brakes. 

[HarryW2024]

Standard service 2 (major) includes brake fluid change afaik. 

[TonyHSD]

2 years brake change really it’s not necessary.
What is more important but no dealer ever offer it is to service the actual brakes- cleaning all discs, pads, callipers and lubricating the slider pins.  This is must do brake service on any hybrid and electric vehicle. 
Brake fluid can easily be done after year 4 onwards. 

[HarryW2024]

4 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

2 years brake change really it’s not necessary.
What is more important but no dealer ever offer it is to service the actual brakes- cleaning all discs, pads, callipers and lubricating the slider pins.  This is must do brake service on any hybrid and electric vehicle. 
Brake fluid can easily be done after year 4 onwards. 

Agree, I ran a TVR Cerbera for 16 years and a complete brake strip down and rebuild was done every year, not because of light use, quite the opposite in fact 😂

[Yaris_Cross]

2 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

2 years brake change really it’s not necessary.

Its not a wonder these dealers are  labelled "Stealers" by customers £153 for a minor service where all they do is change the oil and filter and have a look round the car and now they tell us brake fluid needs changing at 2 years.

[anchorman]

I’m not sure that’s fair, you can’t get much for £150 especially when it includes parts and labour.  These high tech oils are expensive.   Regarding brake fluid, what you  have to be careful about is the presence of moisture in the fluid.  As the others have said, the fluid is hygroscopic and will with time absorb airborne moisture and how fast it does it is dependent on climatic conditions.  It won’t do it in 2 years but it might in 3.  The braking system has various components that are accurately made to astonishing tolerances and moisture will ruin them.  It follows that if you have a problem with those components, they’ll send them back for analysis because they are VERY expensive and they’ll look at the service records and check for moisture.  If either don’t stack up they kick it out.  You could probably leave it a year longer out of warranty but I personally wouldn’t.  It rubs salt in my wounds because I spent 17 years testing and developing brakes and I can change brake fluid in my sleep (with one hand tied behind my back) but it’s a gambol.  It’ll probably be ok but if it isn’t you’ll regret it.  I also believe that it should be included in the price of the second service.  

[Mjolinor]

The big problem with water in brake fluid is total brake failure caused by that water boiling under heavy braking. Under heavy braking the fluid gets to more than 100c, that does not affect how they work but once released the water boils and next time you apply the brake there are steam bubbles in there and you have absolutely no brakes at all.

I have had this happen several times and it is seriously scary.

 

[Maurice Mynah]

17 hours ago, jthspace said:

hydroscopic (absorbs water)

Pedant alert - it's hygroscopic.

I do err on the side of safety and change it myself 2-2.5 years.

[anchorman]

1 hour ago, Mjolinor said:

The big problem with water in brake fluid is total brake failure caused by that water boiling under heavy braking. Under heavy braking the fluid gets to more than 100c, that does not affect how they work but once released the water boils and next time you apply the brake there are steam bubbles in there and you have absolutely no brakes at all.

I have had this happen several times and it is seriously scary.

 

You might have done years ago with twin or four pot calipers but you won’t with our none reactive calipers.  Your discs would have to be glowing yellow for some considerable time before you got anywhere near the fluid and it would need to be seriously contaminated with moisture.  

[Maurice Mynah]

16 hours ago, Mojo1010 said:

My MK3 hybrid was 2 year old when I bought it, don't think it had the brake fluid changed. Owned it for 5 years and did not have the fluid changed, no effect on brakes. 

Don't drive too close behind me.😎

The problem is any difference in braking might not be noticed too easily because of adapting to a possible loss of efficiency over time.

[Mojo1010]

1 hour ago, Maurice Mynah said:

Don't drive too close behind me.😎

The problem is any difference in braking might not be noticed too easily because of adapting to a possible loss of efficiency over time.

Nah you'll be breathing in half the fumes from my hybrid in front.

[Willss]

Don't know whether it 'needs' to be done.  But as others have already said for the majority (if not all) of Toyotas it is included within the major (2,4,6,8yrs etc) services if work is carried out at main dealers. 

When I book the car in online you can select various 'extras' including key fob Battery replacement, brake fluid replacement etc.  Seems weird as they are included in the price already (and the work is carried out I checked)?  Do wonder if I selected them whether I'd get charged for them even though they should be included in the service price!

[APS]

2 hours ago, anchorman said:

Your discs would have to be glowing yellow for some considerable time before you got anywhere near the fluid and it would need to be seriously contaminated with moisture.

Exactly this ^^

Your pads are the weakest link and will lose efficacy before the fluid becomes a problem. However, if your brakes are not maintained, as per Tony's comments, and they seize and indeed cause the discs to glow, then yes, your callipers will eventually get rather toasty and boil the fluid. But it takes considerable effort. More than you would ever be able to achieve under normal driving conditions. 

Moisture content in the fluid may reduce the boiling point from say 250 degrees to 200 or 175 after a few years. It doesn't suddenly turn into water with a boiling point of 100 degrees. 

The biggest reason to replace the fluid is more to avoid corrosion and keep seals in top condition. It's equally important to keep the brakes moving as they should.

[davidif]

It seems to me that it would be more sensible for the dealer/technician to simply check the moisture content of the fluid with a hydrometer during a service rather than to blindly replace it.

Of course that probably wouldn't generate as much revenue?

[Mjolinor]

2 hours ago, anchorman said:

You might have done years ago with twin or four pot calipers but you won’t with our none reactive calipers.  Your discs would have to be glowing yellow for some considerable time before you got anywhere near the fluid and it would need to be seriously contaminated with moisture.  

That is probably why it has not happened since I stopped messing with old Minis. before disc brakes were common. 🙂

 

[TonyHSD]

But dealers brake fluid change every two years it’s suck out old fluid from the reservoir and add a new fluid. 
This is an easy process and everyone can do it at home, I do that too. 
You need to follow some specific steps and precautions before you empty the tank. ( make sure system is depressurised before you start working on, brake fluid level is at the top max level mark, there are three marks,)   
Hybrids brakes are so slightly different from older cars with petrol or Diesel engines. You need a syringe with tube, old container to store the old fluid and a bottle of new fluid.
Total fluid replacement will be around 200-400ml.
You can repeat this process in short time and you will have new fluid in the tank.
People will argue that this is not a good practice, but I can assure you that change of brake fluid tank only and running two or three times the process will actually renew your brake fluid entirely. What it can’t do is to clean any debris from the callipers cylinders, but you will only had any if a corrosion has happened inside.

So what is the best practice then - imo and from personal experience every two to four years any Toyota hybrid can benefit from brake service but this should include most important physical brake parts cleaning and slider pins lube with silicone grease, brake fluid replacement in tank. That’s it.
Easy diy job the best and don’t tell the dealer anything as they might moan about warranty. Same as some owners do 1000 miles and then every 5000 miles oil changes. About the oil not so sure there is any point of doing it but for the brakes definitely, you will save yourself unnecessary brake discs and pads replacement. 

[Red_Corolla]

Standard practice of every manufacturer of every vehicle I've ever owned is to specify a 2-year replacement interval, so they're just offering to follow along with that. I'm really not sure why it's not included along with any other regular periodic replacement items, such as an air filter or plugs. The necessity of it is debatable and I'm sure there's a large element of erring on the side of caution (avoiding lawsuits) involved.

Brake fluid costs next to nothing; the issue with replacing it is the time and hassle of drawing fluid from every extremity, which is the only way to do a true replacement.

[r44flyer]

Thanks everyone for the comments...

Sadly this from Mazda so I'll have to get it done...

[Yaris_Cross]

20 hours ago, anchorman said:

I’m not sure that’s fair, you can’t get much for £150 especially when it includes parts and labour.  These high tech oils are expensive.

I would agree that when you  go to Halfords and pay £50 for 4 litres of the stuff it is expensive when you buy it by the many thousands of litres as garages do its a lot cheaper they are making a good profit.

Do you know how much they charge to do a brake fluid change i have google and it seems £50 is the norm for the likes of Halfords to do it did you know it only tales 500ml of brake fluid to do the job, its daylight robbery but what option do we have.

 

Quote

.  I also believe that it should be included in the price of the second service.  

I agree.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Mazda and Toyota aren't alone in having brake fluid changes at 2 years, Hyundai do as well.

[Cyker]

Toyota are usually pretty good about rolling regular service items like fluid changes, spark plugs, filters etc. into the appropriate service, but don't know about Mazda.

My Mk1 D4Ds would get brake fluid changes ever major service IIRC, but as it was also the clutch fluid I felt that was warranted (Esp. with the amount of use the brakes and clutch got in London traffic!)