FWD/AWD Hybrid Rav4 - daily performance

[stuffandblah]

Interested to know from those that own the FWD hybrid Rav4 if you are happy with day to day performance, e.g. is traction OK in wet conditions (notice any wheelspin or loss of traction), has fitting decent tyres mitigated not having AWD?

For those with AWD, do you notice any other benefits around the hybrid system, like regen?

[philip42h]

The thing is that you can put decent tyres on an AWD, but you can't [economically] convert a FWD to AWD.

An AWD always takes off in AWD and so is more assured and less prone to wheel spin and scrabbling on an imperfect surface. The only real argument in favour of FWD is overall economy - provided that you are prepared to accept the compromises that come with FWD.

[Nick72]

Agree with Philip.

Ultimately depends where you live, drive, and the environment conditions in your use case. 

If you want more power, better take-off, better assurance in frequent snow and ice operation then get AWD and put all season tyres on it.

If you are a regular driver, no mountain roads in winter, no steep perilous roads, no light off-road, no driving over fields, but still encounter general road snow and ice in winter and want extra insurance then get FWD and put decent all seasons on it like Michelin CC2s. This will perform as good or better than most AWD cars on summer tyres. But nowhere near as good as AWD on decent all seasons. 

Switching to all seasons does however come at an economy cost. I've lost 3 or 4 mpg and electric range is down by nearly 10%. This will vary from driver and use case. Switched from the stock summer tyres to CC2s on the AWD GRS PHEV. But I do drive around narrow mountain roads with 500ft cliff edges in the snow and ice. And do some off road light trails. The stock tyres on my last RAV4 PHEV AWD still performed well enough, no doubt aided by all the tech and AWD, but I now have better assurance and insurance so it was worth the mpg trade off in my case. 

So in best economy order first, but also least traction in wet, icy, snow, muddy conditions...

FWD on summer tyres

FWD on all season tyres, or, AWD on summer tyres (hard to call as this will be close in economy and traction terms, FWD on all seasons might have an edge in economy and bad condition traction TBC)

AWD on all season tyres

AWD on dedicated winter* or all terrain tyres

 

* Noting CC2s (all season) seem to perform as good as some of the best winter tyres on snow and ice. 

[NASY]

FWD works when you have lowish power and a lack of excessive weight on dry roads. It is also fine when quick acceleration is not required, even in the wet it is possible to feed power in gently, with light loads I can pull my wheelbarrow but for heavy loads it definitely requires pushing. So for gentle, fairly undemanding driving FWD works well especially with decent tyres anything else and it's a struggle, even rapid movement away from lights in the wet is not going to happen - too much to pull. Don't think AWD even with great tyres is a total solution - still lets go in the wet when asked to accelerate hard, maybe why some people get into trouble in the winter in competent AWDs.

[Cyker]

You do have to be careful with AWD as you can accelerate much better than FWD or RWD but you can't brake or steer any better than FWD or RWD!!

AWD also has a weight and mpg penalty vs 2WD, but if you regularly have situations where having that extra drive helps, then it's worth it, e.g. snow, ice, mud, steep hills etc. (I long wondered why the heck you could buy e.g. an AWD Yaris in Japan but nowhere else, and apparently it's to help get up all the steep narrow roads they have in some parts of the country, which can be very treacherous this time of year with the rain slick leaves and such!)

Down here where I am there's no real justification for having an AWD other than showing off - Practically no snow, very few properly steep hills... maybe lots of mud and potholes I suppose   2WD is more than adequate. But I know further "oop norf" it's more valuable (As well as proper M+S tyres!) where you actually get snow and steep hills and stuff!

[Nick72]

2 hours ago, NASY said:

FWD works when you have lowish power and a lack of excessive weight on dry roads. It is also fine when quick acceleration is not required, even in the wet it is possible to feed power in gently, with light loads I can pull my wheelbarrow but for heavy loads it definitely requires pushing. So for gentle, fairly undemanding driving FWD works well especially with decent tyres anything else and it's a struggle, even rapid movement away from lights in the wet is not going to happen - too much to pull. Don't think AWD even with great tyres is a total solution - still lets go in the wet when asked to accelerate hard, maybe why some people get into trouble in the winter in competent AWDs.

So far I've not managed to spin the wheels with CC2s on the car. Wet or dry. Previous tyres, it was all the time.

 

But... I still haven't really caned it yet.

[PeteB]

I had a 2019 RAV4 with AWD and Vredestein Quatrac 5 SUV All Season Tyres from October to March (rest of year stock Bridgestone Alenza H/L 33).  I had the car for 4½ years and covered 35k miles, and was happy with the tyres and AWD system.  I also bought a full size spare wheel which I was very glad of a couple of times.

My current Highlander is also AWD (no choice on this model, but happy anyway).  For the winter it runs on Michelin CC2s.

On the RAV I generally had the Energy Monitor Display on the Centre Screen, whereas on the Highlander I like being able to see both the Energy Monitor and AWD displays in the new 12.3" display (see pic).  It's really comforting to see both ends of the car charging the HV Battery when lifting off the accelerator or braking.  The AWD display makes it particularly clear when the rear wheels are being driven.

I don't drive hard enough to really feel the difference, I just like the reassurance if I got surprised by conditions.  As well as kicking in when moving off until about 10 mph or so, it also activates at higher speeds under heavier acceleration and when cornering under power, which helps balance the car and presumably improves tyre life.

I don't have figures for my present car, but the official 0-62 time for the RAV was only 0.2 sec faster with AWD; I seriously doubt I'd notice the difference!

To get back to Dave's original questions, the extra peace of mind AWD gives especially coupled with AS or winter tyres will always appeal to me (I had Nokian WR D3 winter tyres on my previous 2 FWD cars [Gen 3 & Gen 4 Prius]).

I've been particularly swayed since a fright in 2010 when I took my former partner on a 25 minute 17 mile trip in Bedfordshire for her to tidy her parents' cemetery plot.  We used her Aygo with MMT transmission to give it a run.  Just after arrival an unforecasted blizard arrived and we set off for home immediately.  It took 6 hours and lots of diversions around closed roads to get home and I seriously thought we might have ended up spending the night in the car!  I was exhausted when when finally made it home.

 

 

[TonyHSD]

For uk awd hybrid is ok, for other places it is not. 
The awd-I has a rear motor that is not powerful enough to push the car and in extreme condition when rear axle has to move the car on its own it will fail badly and it will make you feel betrayed.
Toyota hybrids and awd aren’t anything so much better than fwd and the only real benefit is when starting uphill, but even then if one wheel loses grip, that’s it , you are done and you are going nowhere. 
There are tons of videos and owners opinions about the system. If it’s worth it for each person strictly individually. For me if you are after a hybrid, the efficiency and trouble free drives are the most important priorities get the fwd. if you are after a real awd performance, get a different car that offers real awd performance, more equal torque distribution between front and rear axle, all that can come with a efficiency penalty and reliability. It’s one or the other. 

[stuffandblah]

Appreciate the feedback everyone.

I think I'm swayed more to AWD and knowing it's there if I need it (more so for slippery conditions maybe). Just got to find one now 😀

@TonyHSD You mention "trouble free drives" with the FWD, are you referring to the mechanical aspects compared to the AWD?

 

[TonyHSD]

2 minutes ago, stuffandblah said:

Appreciate the feedback everyone.

I think I'm swayed more to AWD and knowing it's there if I need it (more so for slippery conditions maybe). Just got to find one now 😀

@TonyHSD You mention "trouble free drives" with the FWD, are you referring to the mechanical aspects compared to the AWD?

 

If you do some more research you may find some years awd cars has issues with rear motor high voltage cables connectors, these get corrosion on out of warranty cost a lot to replace/ repair. 
Car thefts too, but these I believe are equal to both fwd and awd. 
May I suggest you to read through the posts thoroughly and make your mind before purchasing. 
Good luck 

[philip42h]

2 hours ago, stuffandblah said:

Appreciate the feedback everyone.

If you undertake careful, systematic, analysis of the feedback given ... 😉 ... you will note that those of us with AWD are happy that we have made the "right choice", while those with FWD cars are adamant that AWD is wholly unnecessary ... 😄

You just need to decide which camp to join! 🙂 

[GBgraham]

Totally agree Philip.

I live in a property that has a challenging launch to exit the drive. I have AWD and I don't really know it's there but, if I had FWD I would know that I would definitely wish for AWD. 

[Nick72]

4 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

For uk awd hybrid is ok, for other places it is not. 
The awd-I has a rear motor that is not powerful enough to push the car and in extreme condition when rear axle has to move the car on its own it will fail badly and it will make you feel betrayed.
Toyota hybrids and awd aren’t anything so much better than fwd and the only real benefit is when starting uphill, but even then if one wheel loses grip, that’s it , you are done and you are going nowhere. 
There are tons of videos and owners opinions about the system. If it’s worth it for each person strictly individually. For me if you are after a hybrid, the efficiency and trouble free drives are the most important priorities get the fwd. if you are after a real awd performance, get a different car that offers real awd performance, more equal torque distribution between front and rear axle, all that can come with a efficiency penalty and reliability. It’s one or the other. 

54hp rear motor on the PHEV. But it's about the torque not the HP and the torque is very high on electric motors. It's why electric trams are a thing in very hilly cities in the UK and elsewhere. Not sure what the torque is in Nm but I suspect it may be as much as a small car's ICE engine. That's really more than enough to push the car up or down a muddy slope on the rear motor. I've been doing it for the last 3 years.

 

[NASY]

Absolutely agree it's a torque thing - yes the RAV PHEV rear can shove when required.

[ernieb]

I also think that the AWD is useful in the wet and slippy conditions when the ABS can lock and unlock wheels that are actually driven rather than just rotating. (As in FWD)

However, I’ve seen videos suggesting that under snowy and wet conditions a FWD with winter graded tyres will perform as good as or better than an AWD with summer tyres. But many of us with AWD RAVs also fit CC or similar tyres - so win win in my book.

[Cyker]

54HP is decent - That's more than my 1.3L Fiesta had  

The 5HP one in the Yaris Cross AWD is a little harder to understand though...   

[philip42h]

2 hours ago, Nick72 said:

54hp rear motor on the PHEV. But it's about the torque not the HP and the torque is very high on electric motors. It's why electric trams are a thing in very hilly cities in the UK and elsewhere. Not sure what the torque is in Nm

40 kW / 121 Nm on the rear wheels of a RAV4 HEV or PHEV - it's the same on the rear axle. The engine provides 227 Nm.

[Nick72]

39 minutes ago, philip42h said:

40 kW / 121 Nm on the rear wheels of a RAV4 HEV or PHEV - it's the same on the rear axle. The engine provides 227 Nm.

40kW = 54hp.

So just slightly less than the total torque on a normal Yaris (not the grossly abnormal GRS 😂) from the rear motor on the RAV. 

Plenty of pushing force from that torque. 

[Rav Rob]

I would not go back to a FWD car again, I got an AWD after a day of hell many years ago getting trapped in Merthyr Tydfil in horrific snow and an eventual, often life risking 7 hour trip home. My car at the time had reasonable momentum but too many people lost momentum on slopes forcing me to lose mine, then getting restarted was near impossible. Anything with AWD whatever the tyres, was able to get going again OK. After that I have only had AWD, 4 vehicles in a row.

But a lot of emphasis is put on snow and more important is day to day driving, when I test drove the RAV4 I had a FWD and currently had an AWD Outlander PHEV, I was surprised at how easily the RAV spun the wheel on take-offs the Outlander wouldn't have. When my AWD RAV arrived I was pleased to find it as good as the Outlander, capable of faster launches at damp busy junctions without any drama, tons of traction.

AWD is a benefit I enjoy every day, every trip. 

[philip42h]

11 hours ago, Nick72 said:

40kW = 54hp.

So just slightly less than the total torque on a normal Yaris (not the grossly abnormal GRS 😂) from the rear motor on the RAV. 

Plenty of pushing force from that torque. 

Come on Nick, that's power not torque - I know that you know that ... 😉

On the subject of Toyota AWDs and torque (acceleration) from the electric motors:

• The RAV4 HEV has 202 Nm front and 121 Nm rear (+ 221 from the ICE when shouty)
• The RAV4 PHEV has 270 Nm front and 121 Nm rear (+ 227 from the ICE when shouty)
• The bZ4X has 169 Nm front and 169 Nm rear (but never gets shouty). Toyota quote a total of 337 Nm and suggest that the car has the same 80kW motors front and rear so I'm assuming and even split.
• The Yaris Cross has 141 Nm front and 52 Nm rear (+ 120 from the ICE when shouty)

It's probably not worth noting that in terms of total torque the bZ4X sits between the PHEV and the HEV, and that the kerb weights of the PHEV and bZ4X are pretty much the same.

And a 1.1 Ford Fiesta would have had around 80 Nm torque (FWD) compared to the Yaris Cross 52 Nm at the rear (and 193 Nm overall). So, while the Yaris Cross rear motor sounds a bit puny it's probably more than adequate on its own!

You are all allowed to yawn now! 😄 

[NASY]

Didn't yawn. Numbers are interesting - feel is even more so, sometimes despite the raw numbers.

[Nick72]

7 hours ago, philip42h said:

Come on Nick, that's power not torque - I know that you know that ... 😉

On the subject of Toyota AWDs and torque (acceleration) from the electric motors:

• The RAV4 HEV has 202 Nm front and 121 Nm rear (+ 221 from the ICE when shouty)
• The RAV4 PHEV has 270 Nm front and 121 Nm rear (+ 227 from the ICE when shouty)
• The bZ4X has 169 Nm front and 169 Nm rear (but never gets shouty). Toyota quote a total of 337 Nm and suggest that the car has the same 80kW motors front and rear so I'm assuming and even split.
• The Yaris Cross has 141 Nm front and 52 Nm rear (+ 120 from the ICE when shouty)

It's probably not worth noting that in terms of total torque the bZ4X sits between the PHEV and the HEV, and that the kerb weights of the PHEV and bZ4X are pretty much the same.

And a 1.1 Ford Fiesta would have had around 80 Nm torque (FWD) compared to the Yaris Cross 52 Nm at the rear (and 193 Nm overall). So, while the Yaris Cross rear motor sounds a bit puny it's probably more than adequate on its own!

You are all allowed to yawn now! 😄 

Not saying it was. Just saying that the 54hp I mentioned earlier is the 40kW you mentioned. Power. 

Was referring to the 120Nm or whatever it was in torque from the rear motor being only slightly less than total torque from a Yaris. That's a fair amount of pushing force.

 

[J2024IE]

On 11/6/2024 at 4:44 PM, philip42h said:

If you undertake careful, systematic, analysis of the feedback given ... 😉 ... you will note that those of us with AWD are happy that we have made the "right choice", while those with FWD cars are adamant that AWD is wholly unnecessary ... 😄

You just need to decide which camp to join! 🙂 

before getting my Rav4, I looked at both, and went with the FWD Rav4. happy with the choice, has enough power for me, it drives well on the stock tyres, and fuel economy is as expected.

now I am probably going to go 4WD in 2025 but it will be a Hilux or Landcruiser.

[Cyker]

Haha, no wonder my Mk1 Yaris D4D felt so powerful - It had 170Nm of torque and weighed probably 600-700kg less!!  

 

[J2024IE]

On 11/5/2024 at 7:57 AM, stuffandblah said:

Interested to know from those that own the FWD hybrid Rav4 if you are happy with day to day performance, e.g. is traction OK in wet conditions (notice any wheelspin or loss of traction), has fitting decent tyres mitigated not having AWD?

For those with AWD, do you notice any other benefits around the hybrid system, like regen?

I got a new 2024 Rav4 FWD this summer, happy with day to day performance,  traction is ok, have not changed the tyres,  havent had any wheel spin even in wet conditions, fuel economy is as expected.