Cts

[Aphelion]

That is unbeliveable such a poor depreciation, i think toyota need to comeout with something a little more daring, the CTR is widely regarded as the benchmark hot hatch, like nick above says look at all the things he got with his 30th aniversary edition car.

It realy bugs me that the new CTS has so many common parts with the T2 base model, in my opinon the skirts and new front rear wings should have been saved for the Tspirt upwards, wouldnt the car benefir from some factory fitted TTE extras, ie lower TTE springs, induction kit and perhaps a strut bar and a quick shift kit, sure thats not going to add to much to the price.

I know that toyota wont make a new engine cause the 2ZZGE is such an amzing lump, surely toyota can squeeze a little extra out of it Renault got an extra 10 BHP out of there motor, after all dont toyota make the fastest engines in F1!!

Did i hear someone metion a new CTS for 06?

[CTS03]

I guess the criticism against CTS (as a hot hatchback) will not stop after reducing the steering turns from 3.5 to 3.2 (2 in alfa147), adding color in the seats and 2 a/bags and keeping the same alloys for touring 195mm tyres.

There could be a long way with many such gradual "lifts" if the ultimate Toyota's target is a CTR! Toyota would also need a new VVTL-i 2lt engine.

On the contrary, what could be changed in CTR?

[mircea]

add up ,as mandatory, a new shorter cross gears, which change the gear ratios of the original spec . C-one has one!

Find the site below:

http://www.c-one.co.jp/C-ONEPARTS/close_mission.html

[Aphelion]

What a difference that would make to the acceleration of the car, looks like its going to be much quicker as well as having a higher 6th for greater top speeds.

I would definatly add that to a wishlist of factory mods.

As far as the engine goes, i was a bit sad again and done a little maths, this isnt exactly scientific but if you take the capactiy and the horsepower of the CTS and the CTR you get the following T sport would develop 210 bhp of it was a 2000 cc where as the CTR would only develop 177.3 bhp of it was an 1800, surely toyota could bore out the engine a little to develop more capacity. totaly dreaming but would be nice thought.

Oh yeah as well as factory 17"s or 18"s of the same style of alloy wheels, like the current one's but they do look a little small, and bigger brakes.

:bookworm:

[exon16m]

Top gear has recently changed their 0-60 times on the ts to 8.4 sec from 7.4 i think (cant remember).

In reality where the CTS fails is it does not have the power in the hot hatch area any more as it was launched so were several new hot hatches all 210bhp and above with low down power too

Hot-hatches have moved on the TS was too late. Figures show it to be slow and when you compair two cars at the showroom you dont go for the faster feeling car its hard to compair when you cant test one after another.

You use the figures toyotas figures are slow very slow in the hot hatch area which now demands low 7 sec and below.

[PaulT]

Has anybody seen any sales figures for the CTS and CTR? I wonder if either has met or exceeded their expected targets. Interesting to see how many CTS cars Toyota thought it would sell.

Cheers

Paul.

[Nick-Johnson]

With Toyota now one of the biggest motor manufactures in the world and also now a key member of Formula 1 they had all the right things going for them to manufacture a real Hot Hatch. I can’t argue with them the Corolla was definitely the right car to base it on as most of the other manufactures performance hatches are of the equivalent size. The engine they chose in the 1.8 2G-ZZ was a real stunner if maybe a little low on torque but still arguably still one of the best normally aspirated engine on sale.

On paper by this stage you have to say it is looking very good here for Toyota, but some one the design board for what ever reason decided to ruin the final finishing’s. Till this day I will never understand why they decided to let the car sit so high up in the air on those standard springs, it didn’t make any sense after fitting a nice large rear spoiler to enhance its looks then only for it to sit so high.

Next was the handling it was almost like Toyota did all the hard work creating the T-Sport brand getting the right engine under the bonnet making the interior sportier and then selling it before making any real changes to the chassis unfortunately this where the T-Sport keeps on picking up its bad press. Quite simply all the other Hatches comfortably out handled the Corolla and were more rewarding to drive which in my opinion is the very reason for purchasing a car in this nature in the first place.

It was all there for Toyota they had the know how, money, research and more than al the heritage which the like of companies like Seat could only dream about, a missed opportunity I certainly think so!

I hope they don’t make the same mistake again!

Nick

[thecanadian]

Nick,

I have to disagree with you here. I think the big T did what was right at the time. They needed to break into the hot-hatch territory and that's exactly what they did. Sure, the T-sport is not the best...but, it's not the worst either. In fact, there are some areas where it excels - the interior being one. I appreciate that not everyone who's in the market for a 'hot hatch' cares too much about the interior but hey that's what differentiates the t-sport at the moment.

When the T-sport was launched there really were not that many 'hot hatches'. Today's a different storey, but, just like any fast moving market there's always going to be one better the next year. I'm sure we'll see toyota boost the power in the T-sport and hopefully improve the chassis in the next couple of years. The current face-lift is, just that, a face lift/cosmetic. So, I would not be surprised to see an even better hatch in the near future. Who knows - 225 - 250HP ...we're not far off with the likes of the megane, the seat and the golf. Let's be realistic...when you start getting into 200 - 300HP territory - what's the point? You can hardly use the power on UK roads as they are too busy. You might as well have two cars...one for the track, and one for a daily driver.

I love my t-sport for what it is! An all-rounder - reasonably quick, well appointed and fun car!

Plus, you are comparing a 1st gen toyota t-sport to a 2nd/3rd gen CTR from Honda. I'm sure toyota will make progress...or, at least I hope they will.

[phil3345]

As much as I like my t sport this is the way I think of it when compared to the ctr.

CTS FAST CAR FOR DADS

CTR FAST CAR FOR DRIVERS

Before I bought the cts i took a ctr for a spin.The reason that I bought the cts rather than the ctr was quite simple.Even though the ctr was faster,better on the road and nicer driving position the ctr I took out rattled like a babys toy.I had Janine (g/f) with me when i took both cars out and she said the same.When i change my car in jan I will not be gettin another t sport

[Nick-Johnson]

Phil,

That is funny you say that as I do find the ride a lot harder in the Honda but I find the interior is much better put together in the procces! I dont have any rattles what so ever from my Type-R!

Nick

[Aphelion]

Yeah i tend to agree, CTS is definatly showing its age, think the only hot hatch out there that is worse off is the ST170, but then ford are launching the new focus, so you can only guess there will be much better coming from them.

I have heard it said that the CTS is the worst handeling, i have to agree it is a bit of a standard car round corners, no sporty feel what so ever, always seem to be fighting it in the corners.

I think Toyota need to have a serious look at the CTS, they just didn't do enough on the face lift, think that all the things they have done are fantastic, mainly cosmetic though, if they were able to squeeze more BHP out of that engine and improve the handling iam damn sure it would out preform the CTR,

Any one know what toyota are planning as far as there T sport brand goes?

[CTS03]

The performance of CTS is satisfactory for a major part of potential Toyota customers, the small family dads who are good drivers. This was probably the targeted group of this car and those wanting the absolute hot hatch.

CTS would be a quite fair product if the bulit quality problems (noises, rattles) did not exist and if Toyota did not change model each year!

I also consider entertaining to need fighting at the corners at speeds more than 50km/h above the limits. I don't want a car that can turn without scaring me at speeds even higher than this. Overall, we drive in real roads where you cannot make many mistakes to learn.

On the other hand, Toyota could not compete (without turbo) with the 2lt Honda engine that gives 240hp in S2000. But it also does not make real sense to have more than 200hp in a non all wheel drive car.

Just forget CTR and go for a Subaru Imreza if you really want the best performance.

[CTS03]

Correction in 2nd line:

..and those not wanting the abolute hot hatch.

[phil3345]

Hi Nick

Yes I think we went out in a bad one its the only time ive heard of rattles in a ctr butit was a dealer car 6 months old,and im lucky my cts doesnt rattle .As for the stiffer ride thats much better for cornering sometimes in the cts i feel like im going to lose it in fast corners.Its not funny when the vsc bleeps at you over 100 mph ( on a track of course )

brown overals

Phil

[PaulT]

Well this is why I was wondering about the sales figures, you see. Have Toyota really missed the market?

I think they put a decent engine in the car to get a good headline sales figure, 190hp. Yay! However, it sounds like they didn't want to turn away those drivers who wanted something quick but might not be prepared to deal with a more raw racer.

There is the cost, too. Toyota has cut corners on the suspension which is relatively basic, or decided that using the Celica rear axle would push the price up too far. But the high ride height isn't all that silly for a European car. What you get with the longer springs is more weight transfer when cornering, which is not what you want for a dry racetrack but which makes quite a lot of sense in the wet. Dry or wet you can feel the limit of grip approaching as you push harder. I've had some the the most fun in a car ever on wet roundabouts when you can let it drift a bit without worrying about either end breaking away suddenly. Ok, you are only doing 40mph, but it's still fun.

Seems to me that the car feels just right on the 40-60mph B-road bends where you can have some fun but without risking a serious smash. I guess that would satisfy quite a lot of enthusiastic drivers.

Cheers

Paul.

[nickw]

I have read with interest this chain of mails. Its all a matter of taste with cars and its what people like and what they need from a car. I bought my CTS because it is a nice looking hatch with a bit of Zip, well made and above all not to obvoius. In my area they are quite rare unlike Civic R and ST170 where you will see one or the other everytime you hit the road (probably 9 or 10). I would hesitate on upgrading to the facelift model because I cant stand skirts, white dials and the red bits in the seat look.....erm........wrong. The car is everything I need and like in a car, it handles perfectly for the road conditions I use it ion. It is not a racing car for the track and I don't expect it to behave like one so thankyou for read this. Deep down I think we all love our CTS even Nick-Johnson.....

Nick

[bzn]

Totally agree. One more thing:

CTS fits a much larger group of regions (if looking at the whole world). For example I live in Russia and it is VERY hard to keep the CTR on snowy and icy roads (apart from the facts that there are brake problems @ below-zero temps) haven't driven the CTS under such conditions, but i think it will be OK.

Second: think of all the really hot countries, how can they have the ctr when it doesn't even have AC???

For me, i dont care if my furute CTS won't outperform the CTR or a megane. I care for the FUN FACTOR. Driving a CTS is harder and more fun. It's not a german car where all you have to do is press the accelerator, and you guys know that is the reason you RESPECT each other.

I will use it as an everyday car and i will still be able to break all the speed limits here (althoug we get no real fines for breaking them :) )

The grin on your face and the terrified look on other people faces is also very, veryworth it!!!

[spwolf]

It realy bugs me that the new CTS has so many common parts with the T2 base model, in my opinon the skirts and new front rear wings should have been saved for the Tspirt upwards, wouldnt the car benefir from some factory fitted TTE extras, ie lower TTE springs, induction kit and perhaps a strut bar and a quick shift kit, sure thats not going to add to much to the price.

sorry, but CTS has sooo many different things than any other Corolla, when you take in consideration that it is basically just another grade... My service manager always keep talking how CTS is soo different because when ever he looks up some part, it turns up to me CTS specific :-). Brakes, suspension, engine, gearbox, dials, seats, fabric, alloys tires, and probably hundreds upon hundreds of small parts...

New CTS has different skirts, it is lowered, has strut bar, different interior and CTS03 would like its thicker window glass :-)... Underbody is different, suspension was reworked, gearbox is smoother...It seems as if Toyota has listened to your complaints I guess.

If you really wanted some crazy handling, super sporty car, then Celica would have fit the bill - it is certainly different, better everything, but thats why you get bigger price with it :-).

What you really need to do with CTS is just get the damn wider and stickier tires, and it will go quite well through the corners...

[accylad]

I was seriously considering a CTR when I changed my Celica. I never even got to test drive one because the Honda Dealership I went to in Clitheroe (Greenacre) weren't exactly falling over themselves to let me test drive one ! I settled on the CTS because I liked the looks, there aren't many around and was more than impressed with the handling on the facelift model I have. In fact, I think it handles better than my old 03 Celica did.

Sure, accelearation wise it might be the quickest but when you push the engine it certainly goes. The main reason though was insurance, 3 groups below the CTR.

Having said that I'm now wondering whether I made the right choice. I've had TRC problems, rattles, squeaks and the steering feels woolly. Its still great fun throwing it into bends though, especially when the TRC kicks in.

Accylad

[s0cks]

I personally would never get a CTR because they are just too popular. I noticed this a few months ago. You would see a Golf every half a mile and then I started to notice the Civic Type-R's. And wow, I think its probably getting close to the Golf GTI popularity.

On a 16 mile trip to work I counted 6 CTR's today. 2 silver, 2 red, 1 blue, 1 black.

Ok, ok, so I hear you say the Yaris is popular. But I only see 1 or maybe 2 T-Sport models a week - and they are just the same ones.

Then again I wouldn't get the CTS either. It sits way too high, and although the front can look OK the rear is not nice (big and bulky sticking high up in the air). At least the SEAT's and CTR hug the ground better.

However! I did see a CTS with what looked like after-market skirts with made the front look much more aggressive. Its just that rear end!

[SKG]

Well I live in Greece. People owing CTRs here are rather garage-faced hard-rock macho-like-and-the-rest type of guys. CTS drivers are rather well educated civilized and well mannered type of guys who had the very clever idea to just spend 5 kE more to buy the 1.8Ts instead of the 1.6 version of a very common hatchback. People that bought the CTS just for 192 hp are gradually getting off the club....

[Nick-Johnson]

Well I live in Greece. People owing CTRs here are rather garage-faced hard-rock macho-like-and-the-rest type of guys. CTS drivers are rather well educated civilized and well mannered type of guys who had the very clever idea to just spend 5 kE more to buy the 1.8Ts instead of the 1.6 version of a very common hatchback. People that bought the CTS just for 192 hp are gradually getting off the club....

Whats he talking about!

[SKG]

Well Nick, thank you for being polite enough to find out that "he" is talking about different target groups. Now, unless you believe that UK is the World's Kingdom, there are different countries with different habits. And in Greece CTRs are mostly bought by macho-type of guys while CTSs are mainly driven by fast but not showing-off drivers...

I don't really understand why you still are in this forum though... to tells us how much better yout CTR is? Well, thanks, well done, goodbye....

[CTS03]

SKG, I fully agree with the profile of Greek CTS owners. This is also related to the tax-system and Honda-Sarakakis policy that make CTR cost addional 5K Euro in Greece. Any reasonable Greek person does not want to waste his money.

However, I believe that buying a CTS was eventually a stupid idea, considering its build quality problems.

Just think that the BMW 1.6lt Compact costs 3KEuro less than CTS.

[Nick-Johnson]

I don’t really think that was really called for, I was merely asking what you were trying to say as your first post didn’t really make any sense, thanks for making a lot clearer in your second.

Believe it or not yes I am aware there are other countries other than the United Kingdom thank you very much for pointing that out, and I would also like to say that the same approach to the CTR is not the same over here. If you read through some of the comparison threads on this forum you will find out I have owned not one but two T-Sport Toyotas in the past 3 years and believe I am in a good position to comment on what I feel!

I agree the Corolla T-Sport is a much more civilised and comfortable hatch back than the Civic but for outright thrills it wasn’t for me, I wanted something for the weekends and occasional trackday use and the Type-R fits the bill perfectly plus the build quality is much better.

And in regards to your question why do I still use this forum, well I have been a member form when the forum first started a few years back met a lot of people and still have a keen interest in Toyotas. I hope that answers everything!

Nick