Getting Rid Of The Afm....

[Jimlad]

I know it is possible, but how do you go about getting rid of the AFM on a rev1 ??

[Fizz]

buy a rev 3.. :P

soz mate.. dont know.. :D

[Jimlad]

buy a rev 3.. :P

soz mate.. dont know.. :D

No !!.... lol

I know you can get rid of it. I was told the unichip can be mapped to act like the car has a MAP sensor, but it takes ALOT of mapping.

There is a way to replace the AFM though as they did it on high octane

[yvvan]

Are you planning on running an aftermarket ECU that runs off a MAP-sensor?

Otherwise don't bother with it.

Cheers, Yves.

[Jimlad]

I was under the impression that when you got to a certain point of tuning that the AFM = crap... hence you need the map sensor.

But... I will be sticking with the unichip.

[yvvan]

Most decent aftermarket ECU's are running off a MAP-sensor, but if you just simply remove your AFM your current ECU wont have a clue as to what is happening.

What does the Unichip runs off then?

Cheers, Yves.

[Jimlad]

the AFM... but obviously if I had a MAP sensor it would be that.

So... if it can be replaced I assume the Unichip would use the info from the MAP sensor.

I've seen a MAP sensor ( mini ecu type thing ) somewhere before... just don't know where.

Anyone know when or if I would have issues with the AFM when I upped the power?

[midmotorsteve]

Jim reading about ecus etc I gathered you can go out and buy an GM map sensor for about £40, you just then need someone to wire it in and set it up with your ecu. I guess the guys to ask are dastek, to see if trhe unichip can support this.

[Jimlad]

GM Map sensor ?? ... Mmmmm.. cheers for that

[KiwiMR2]

MAP-ECU......ask Bibbs as I sent him a list of UK suppliers for it (assuming he still has the info i sent)

Hmmm....Im thinking of how much moolaa you have already spent & how much you plan on spending and am wondering weather to post "why" a FULL aftermarket ecu is a better option if you wanna go for decent power.....you reakon you could do a tally up of $$ you spent so I can use you as an example :P

You SURE you don't wanna bite the bullet and go for a stand alone?

Cheers

KiwiMR2

[Jimlad]

mmm... will speak to dastek first to see what they say.. then would eventually go standalone me thinks.

[KiwiMR2]

eventually go standalone me thinks.

Ahhhh....there we have it ;)

Let me gather together then post some "info" I have found :)

Cheers

KiwiMR2

[Jimlad]

cheers mate

[KiwiMR2]

The MAIN gripe with the likes of motec etc is the intial cost right....well a wise man once told me;

the real cost of an item isn't just it's purchase price, and you shouldn't spend the least amount possible to do something. Things are cheap for a reason, it's really a question of how many times you want to do a job. Pay a one time premium or pay over and over again for the same poor quality job.

Cost is defined this way. If you buy something (Link,Haltech,Autronic,etc etc) that isn't capable of doing the job (which IMHO they aren't) then you've just wasted the entire cost of install and the cost of a blown motor as well, and it's still going to cost you the price of doing it properly. If you buy something that is more than capable of doing the job (Motec) then the only money you waste is the difference between something that will do the job and what you paid. Plus you don't have the hassle of a blown motor :D

Right now I haven't got the time to cover this subject fully, but if I were to detail how I would build a reliable high HP 3S-GTE, then you would see why there is only one ECU that's worth the price of admission. Sure there are other ECU's that can produce the power, that's the easy bit. The reliable part of the equation is what's hard, and for that you need to run a lot of ancillary stuff like Thermo fans, Water injection/spray, Boost Control, Electric Water Pumps, and in the case of the Auto GT-T the transmission, most cheap ECUs don't have the spare I/O's or the capability of running some of these complicated devices.

Oh and BTW how much more expensive do you think the Motec is? You might be suprised just how little price difference the is when it comes down to the total cost of ownership ;)

Someone then stupily asked;

I would quite like to know exactly what aspects of a Motec allow you to make a car more reliable than a Haltech or Autronic. I mean sure, it has better features and stuff, but at the end of the day, assuming the tuning is equal, then why can't an Autronic or Haltech produce the same power and reliability as a Motec? I don't know a huge amount about programmable computers, which is why I would like to know what it is about the Motec that is so much better.

AND

Me too - coz basically IMHO it isn't. The Autronic is being used on big HP 3S-GTE's as well as MoTeC. The SMC and SM2 can even have auto-tune options which is something that the MoTeC doesn't do AFAIK? At the end of the day if you spend a decent amount of money on a decent ECU then you'll get the result and the safety I've found

REPLY;

MoTeC is unquestionably superior, but don't take it from me; have a look for yourself:

www.motec.com.au

www.autronic.com

www.haltech.com.au

Key features to consider include:

Individual cylinder fuel and timing trims

Large number of fully user definable auxiliary outputs (particularly PWM)

Large number of fully user definable auxillary inputs

Full compatibility with stock sensors

Other points to consider: do you really think it's an accident that all 3 cars in the 8 second club run MoTeCs? Apparently even the HKS R33 drag car has an M8 hidden under the dash.

Who won the tender to supply ECUs for all the V8 supercars?

When was the last time Autronic released a new ECU?

Finally, MoTeC have had a form of Autotune that actually works for many years, if it were actually possible to fully automatically tune an ECU they'd offer that feature as well.

I then asked about the Power FC as Im a big fan of those...the reply;

For the Gen III IMO they are the best plug and play option, but you need to add the DataLogit if you're going to do anything with them. However, while they are good and you can make high HP with them, they do not have the necessary features to make a reliable (100,000kms+) high HP (450+) 3S-GTE.

I have one in my stock Gen III, with DataLogit, just waiting on my WBO2 to arrive from the US before I start tuning it. FWIW on the stock settings it runs very well, though I seem to have a problem with the boost only going to 8PSI, not sure if it's the ECU though, and until I get the WB I'm happy to leave it there.

Cost is currently 98,000yen + shipping , works out to around $1700-$1800 + GST if you get caught. I wouldn't bother with the H/C, save your money for the DataLogit instead.

According to my sources there is a Gen II option available, not sure who (apart from Phoenix Power) makes them though.

....................

[Jimlad]

wtf ??? ... lol

will read all that later.. cheers tho mate.

[KiwiMR2]

He then goes on to say;

As I said earlier, I don't have time right now to properly debate this subject, and I already know from the responses I see here that it will be the same argument I've had before which goes like this

"Brand x has the same features as Motec."

"Actually no it doesn't. Does it do .... or ...."

"No, but you don't need those features, and anyway they're too complicated to set up"

"Err, you do need those features, and they're not hard to set up, Motec has a very good user interface"

"There isn't a local tuner that knows Motec"

"You don't need a local tuner, you can do it yourself with Motec"

..... ad infinitum until I get bored with the repetitive and ill-informed nature of the debate and give up and just enjoy my Motec knowing that I have all the ECU I'll ever need (unless I buy an old F1 car).

So now before I start this, I want all who wish to debate (not argue) the merits, or otherwise, of the various systems, to do what I did when evaluating the systems. That is compare all the features, download all the software and manuals, and try to set up the systems for a 3S-GTE from scratch. After doing this you will be in a position to discuss the merits of each system, not just repeat in parrot fashion all the spurious arguments you have seen elsewhere on the internet.

When you've done that (and I've updated myself with the latest software/manuals), then, and only then, will I start by the discussion. Not with the relative merits of each system, but with the topic at hand, the 3S-GTE, it's faults and how to avoid the pitfalls by utilising the ECU's features.

In the meantime if you wish to continue with uninformed discussion on the subject, go ahead, at least I'll know who has an open mind and who to ignore when the real debate begins :D

Before anyone accuses me of being biased in favour of Motec because I own one, you're wrong, I'm biased towards Motec because I did the evaluation of the software and hardware (which, BTW, is what I do for a living) and IMHO it came out on top, had fewer faults, and had all the features I required. That was before the new windows software came out, and it's a quantum leap from the old DOS based version B)

If someone can prove to me (by rational debate) that there is a better option then I'll probably go out and buy one to see if it's as good as it's made out to be, I surely have enough cars that need an aftermarket ECU and I'm not afraid to try something different, but I do need to know that anything I use will do the job and continue to do it for many years to come, as I never intend to sell any of my growing fleet of vehicles :D

He continues;

Alright now I have some time let me kick off the discussion, and yes MarkCL, by the time we've finished this discussion I will justify my view that the other ECU's are not capable of producing the same HP with the same reliability as Motec

Over the years there have been a few attempts to stop 3S-GTE from failing. However all of these attempts have been solutions for problems that weren’t properly defined. If you don’t know what’s going wrong how can you fix it? This strategy brought about several urban myths about the 3S-GTE, like “you need a Supra fuel pump”, or even “a dual feed fuel rail is the answer”. An answer to what I ask? To the best of my knowledge nobody has ever put a fuel pressure & flow sensor on and logged the data, either before or after these mods. If they had then I doubt these “fixes” would have been done or attained the legendary status that they have. Simple data logging would have shown that there was/was not a fuel supply or pressure problem, and if these mods fixed it. No, they relied on the old “it hasn’t blown so I must’ve fixed it” adage, to which I say “fixed what?” and “Don’t you mean it hasn’t blown yet?”. These mods don’t solve the problem, and there a plenty of people who’ve done them that still blow their motors.

So what next? Well if you’re the typical MR2 enthusiast you find a new miracle cure (Evans Coolant) and invent the problem it solves (micro boiling), of course you provide no data (or you provide data that proves nothing about what you claim to be the problem) and everyone jumps on the bandwagon, cursing the naysayers and hyping up the benefits of this new wonder cure to all that will listen. I must admit to a quiet chuckle when the chief proponent of this particular snake oil blew his motor

What you really need to do is find out why the 3S-GTE is blowing up, and before anyone shouts the D word, I don’t mean the method of failure (that’s pretty obvious), but what causes the detonation to occur in the first place. That is why you need data-logging, along with the tools and skills to set it up and interpret the data. This is where the aftermarket ECU shines, not only can you log he data, but you can change settings and see what effect these changes have.

So now we have identified one of the important features that is required lets have a look at what is on offer from the ECU’s. I’ll stick to comparing the Motec M400/600 (with notes where the M800/880 differs), Haltech E11 & Autronic SM2 but if you have any other ECU’s you’d like to compare please post their features. I apologise if I make any mistakes in the specs for the Autronic/Haltech as I’m not as familiar with them as the Motec, and can only rely on what I can read in their manuals/ find in the software.

Motec - Optional 512kb (M800 = 1mb, M880 =4mb) onboard logging for up to 64 channels at one time (from about 300 possible), logging rate variable for each channel at 1,2,5,10,20,50,100, or 200hz. Remote telemetry option, All ECU channels can be logged at 20Hz using a CAN compatible logger e.g. ADL. Has very good interpreter software for viewing the data, also supports CSV export.

Haltech - 448kb onboard, up to 10 channels from a possible 81, all channels logged at either 1,10 or 200hz, can be RPM activated. Also supports unlimited logging to PC for up to 20 channels (from a possible 60), at 10hz, software only supports viewing in 2 minute chunks very limited graphing abilities, files are CSV.

Autronic - hard to find data about the onboard system, from a search on the net it appears to have only 32kb onboard, 16 channels (out of 44) @50hz enough for about 30secs of 8 channels, no wonder they don’t mention it anywhere. PC logging for 76(?) channels at .2,.5,1,2,5,10,20hz (limited by transmission speed), remote telemetry option. Log viewing software is IMO not very user friendly and has poor interpretation facilities, although it does have XY plots which on the Motec requires the advanced logging option or export to an external graphing solution e.g. Excel.

IMHO Motec is the clear winner in the Datalogging stakes, with the only black mark being no direct PC logging, which IME is not required and this limitation can be overcome if required (I wrote a program to download the log from the ECU every 10 minutes)

That’s enough for a start, any comments?

Another STUPID comment;

Only that if Rod Millen can manage to build a 1000 horsepower Toyota engine for his Pikes Peak hillclimb record holding car using a Haltech E6K ECU then it can't be all that bad surely?

reply;

There you go misconstruing what I said again. Pray tell me why you consider Millens 1000HP, methanol powered, race engine (which by all internet legends is not a 3S-GTE, but let's not start that debate ) to be a 100,000km+ reliable, streetable engine, I must have missed that part in you indepth evaluation

Millen's record is 10:04.06 to get up the hill, not exactly a test in longevity now is it, hmmmm maybe he needed a Motec to break the 10 minute barrier

Now again in language Mark might understand, without feeling the need to comment for the "cheap seats", I ask...

Any comments about the datalogging capabilities of the above mentioned ECU's or anything constructive to add about other ECU's ?

next;

Care to reveal the mods that made you 360HP, if that HP at the wheels then it's certainly a respectable figure from a ST205.

Arrogant, maybe it appears that way, perhaps though it could just be I get sick and tired of people saying that Brand X is as good as if not better than a Motec for less cost, which simply is not true as you will see. BTW the cost difference in the base price of the 3 systems I compared is around $100 in Australia not much more to pay for those extra features is it now?

As to whether I am open minded or not, perhaps that is best answered by the fact that since I purchased and installed the Motec for my MR2, I have also purchased a Power FC for another of my MR2's, Kalmaker software for my Holden and even dare I admit it, recommended to a good friend that they buy an EManage or Link (not for a 3S-GTE) because that was what their budget allowed.

So for the record I will state now that I consider that almost any aftermarket ECU is better than stock, it's just that some are better than others.

Don't go leaving this thread because I've offended you by my brash, boorish manner, stick around, but please try to stay on topic and contribute constructively to the debate, not just snipe with comments that add nothing.

Might I be so bold as to suggest that you'd get far more respect from me if you pointed out why the features of the Motec that I am expounding are not required for a high HP reliable 3S-GTE.

Another point;

In my experience "professional" tuners nearly always have an agenda when it comes to ECUs as they are often agents for a particular brand or have a bias or familiarity with a particular brand. Fivebob is a consumer who is prepared to back up his choice with exhaustive and reasoned argument, AFAIK he has no agenda.

I used to be a little more open minded myself when it was Autronic SM2 vs. MoTeC M8. When I chose my MoTeC several years ago I carefully evaluated all options, pretty much as Fivebob has described, and narrowed my choice to Autronic and MoTeC; I decided the MoTeC was better and since it was about the same price, it won. Over the last few years though, MoTeC has advanced the game by an order of magnitude whereas Autronic appears to have done very little if anything.

...............

[Jimlad]

cheers for that.. good read

[KiwiMR2]

Now I'll give you some hint as to what I believe is the main cause of 3S-GTE self destruction. Other than saying that the yellow trace is unfiltered manifold pressure (ignore the label), and the red trace is filtered data from the same sensor, I'll leave you to figure out what the relevance is

Anyway it goes on from there talking about the different versions of the motec and there capibilitys etc etc

I know it's a bit of a long read but the 2 guys talking above know there stuff....they have proven it time & time again and do date i haven't had any issue's from my MR2's as iv'e followed there bits and peices of advice :)

Cheers

KiwiMR2

[Jimlad]

so with a motec ECU... that would take care of getting rid of the AFM.. or would a MAP ECU also be needed?

[ricomr2]

Lmao... No way will you read that Jim

[Jimlad]

Lmao... No way will you read that Jim

hey.... I already have .... :P

[KiwiMR2]

so with a motec ECU... that would take care of getting rid of the AFM.. or would a MAP ECU also be needed?

Motec would remove the afm and NOTHING else like the map-ecu would be needed :)

Cheers

KiwiMR2

[EarL]

Jim, I had a quote for a Motec from Fensport. The unit plus fitting and mapping would cost around £1000. If you want the pro version, its around £1500.

[ZeroBlade]

2-3 times the price of the unichip, not too bad actually as i'm sure you could get it cheaper if you sourced ut yourself, then got them or someone that knew their stuff to tune it.

Good info once again kiwi

-Z

[Stu8]

Kiwi, I know Motec is a good system. Ok great system. lol

But he sounds more like a sales rep, than anything else :bookworm: