The Truth Behind Crime Figures

[scionic]

What is worse?

Having someone like that in charge? Or having someone who sucks up to someone like that?

Stop the world - I want to get off ..

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Gah! That's a good point.

I'd like to knock both their heads together.

In fairness to TB, he might have felt he was in a bit of a difficult situation. Our current administration plays hardball and probably pressured him like mad. We two (nations) have a long history of military cooperation and solidarity in policies, well except for that tea tax incident and the time you guys came back and tried to burn down our presidential palace Since then we've been real chummy with one another. Bush abused that out of desperation to form a "coalition" for this military action in Iraq. Still it's an incomplete excuse, Tony could have said no.

I've read a few books on the subject and the way it looks to me is, Bush and his neo-conservative cohorts had an agenda and THEN looked for evidence to support a reason for war they could sell to the American public.

The real reason for the war all along is they wanted to take a risky gamble on installing a democracy in the middle east in the hopes that it would spread, that's obvious now that they've very gradually changed the message to fit what's happening on the ground, but at the start they could not have gotten enough support for such a reckless move and they knew it.

I suspect Tony was a victim of the propaganda and hype as much as the American voters were and that makes him more innocent of all this than Bush.

Somehow I don't see him getting the inside information on this whole scheme as it was being hatched.

That said, no one can say with certainty if this was a mistake or not. Anyone who does is foolish. We won't REALLY know for at least 10 years or so when the dust settles and we can see what the result is. However it can be argued that it was unnecessary and very risky and all those involved were drawn in under false pretenses and that should concern anyone who's paying attention.

[Robie]

My pro bush comment was just a joke... as for TB sucking up to him.... I think we have both America and Europe by the balls, if anything happens here we have a lot of friends to help us out Also America will be cautious of losing the support of Britain...

[scionic]

I think so too.

If it weren't for you guys, we would have a much harder time pretending we have a coalition in Iraq. Britain is the only other nation that made a significant committment. 150 troops from Poland and 62 military police from Japan just isn't all that convincing measured against 150,000 American troops in the theatre. I guess it's convincing enough for the dumbest 50% of our population though.

It seems like this move may cost TB politically in the long run though. How is support for the war, in Britain? I suspect it may be even more dire than the near 50-50 support here.

[Demonic Angel]

Personally I think the war was justified - Saddam Hussain was a tyranic leader who slaughtered his own people and ruled with an iron fist. The Iraqi people deserve to live in a democratic society and I'm glad Saddam is gone and I hope he is tried for his crimes and punished appropriately.

However I do not agree with the state of Iraq at the moment - I dont know how or why its happened but Iraq is in even more of a state than before the war - these militant seperatists causing havoc in an already unstable country. Because of this, and quite rightly, most of Iraq now hates us all and wants us out of their country and I think we should comply - we have done what we set out to - dethrone Saddam and its done. Lets leave the Iraqi people to do what they have to to sort out their country - they no longer want, or need, our help.

My brother was posted in Iraq during the war - he's seen first hand what goes on out there. He was one of the many troops TB sent to Iraq to fight - I'm proud of my brother for that, however, its about time the rest of the troops came home to their loved ones. Its no longer our war.

[Bibbs]

Personally I think the war was justified - Saddam Hussain was a tyranic leader who slaughtered his own people and ruled with an iron fist. The Iraqi people deserve to live in a democratic society and I'm glad Saddam is gone and I hope he is tried for his crimes and punished appropriately.

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Too right, but why lie to us and tell us that it's cause we are under threat, when we are not ..

It's nice to find a tenner in your wallet, but not if you were expecting a twenty ..

[Demonic Angel]

Personally I think the war was justified - Saddam Hussain was a tyranic leader who slaughtered his own people and ruled with an iron fist. The Iraqi people deserve to live in a democratic society and I'm glad Saddam is gone and I hope he is tried for his crimes and punished appropriately.

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Too right, but why lie to us and tell us that it's cause we are under threat, when we are not ..

It's nice to find a tenner in your wallet, but not if you were expecting a twenty ..

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Did they say they had proof of the WMD then before we went to war? I cant remember

[Robie]

Yeah they had photos of what were believed to be chemical weapons barrels but I believe they were still right to remove Saddam Hussein... just the inteligence agencies are dire! Oh and the Tory's were pro war so vote Lib Dems if you disagree with me

[scionic]

Personally I think the war was justified - Saddam Hussain was a tyranic leader who slaughtered his own people and ruled with an iron fist. The Iraqi people deserve to live in a democratic society and I'm glad Saddam is gone and I hope he is tried for his crimes and punished appropriately.

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Too right, but why lie to us and tell us that it's cause we are under threat, when we are not ..

It's nice to find a tenner in your wallet, but not if you were expecting a twenty ..

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Precisely.

I don't think anyone would argue that Iraqi's deserve a democratics society (if that is what THEY want) and Saddam was a tyrant.

The main problem is we were all lead into the war under false pretenses. The original reason for going to war, which all of its supporters seem to have forgotten under the Bush mind spell, was to "rid Saddam of WMD because he was a threat to OUR security".

We know two things now:

1. Saddam had no significant WMD of any kind

2. Saddam was not a threat to OUR security. Iraq has never attacked the UK or the US. How many Iraqi terrorists do you know of? Saudi Arabia is where the 9/11 attackers came from. Not Iraq.

So... NOW it's: "We are there on a mission to liberate Iraq"

If we are going to take on the business of liberating every country with a corrupt ruler we have A LOT of work to do. Iraq isn't the only nation in the world with a corrupt ruler that oppressed his people. Would it not be hypocritical to liberate only Iraq and not Iran and North Korea and various African nations and so on? Or do we only liberate nations with huge oil reserves?

It's not hard to see the flawed logic here.

Bibbs' analogy of the 10 and 20 works fairly well here.

What if you went to your Mr. T and purchases a new red Yaris T-sport and when you arrived to pick it up he had a blue Volkswagen Polo waiting for you instead, even though you signed and paid for and agreed upon the red Yaris?

Would the fact he had a new car of some kind waiting there for you, make you forget you ever asked for a red Yaris?

Apparently if your a supporter of the Iraq war, it might.

[Bibbs]

The reason Mugabi and North Korea are not on the list?

Well Africa doesn't ahve the oil that Iraq has (and All the Bush and Blair friends can't own companies liberating the contries natural resourses) and theat NK actually DOES have WMD.

Why pick on a bully if you KNOW he's got a big stick?

[Matthew_McNally]

Personally I think the war was justified - Saddam Hussain was a tyranic leader who slaughtered his own people and ruled with an iron fist. The Iraqi people deserve to live in a democratic society and I'm glad Saddam is gone and I hope he is tried for his crimes and punished appropriately.

No one says Saddam was a jolly nice chap.

But thiswar was;

- an illegal, offensive war (illegal under the very conventions the US and GB instituted at the end of the second world war)

- based on lies

- The US and the UK are not the worlds policemen. We cannot just decide to go to war with smeone because we do not like how they run a country.

and as such can never be justified

My brother was posted in Iraq during the war - he's seen first hand what goes on out there. He was one of the many troops TB sent to Iraq to fight - I'm proud of my brother for that, however, its about time the rest of the troops came home to their loved ones. Its no longer our war.

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I hope your brother is safe, and comes home soon.

However, it is still our war.

WE started it - we have to see it through.

To anything else is immoral.